equality blooms with spring, pt. II

[diamond]

Originally Posted by anitram

I want to highlight this.

Not that I think <> will feel ashamed. But he should.

By stating a medical fact?

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by diamond

I think it's ironic that some gays are equating birth to human excrement, but when imitating
straight sex as in sodomy, they're actually in excrement more often then not.

You know Diamond, not that I think you'll care, but before this page, I thought you were genuine in your acceptance of homosexuals, just misguided in your stubbornness with the 'definition' of marriage. It was a nice act while it lasted

[anitram]

Originally Posted by diamond

By stating a medical fact?

Your comment is all that most people here will need to know about where you stand. It really speaks for itself.

[diamond]

Originally Posted by anitram

Your comment is all that most people here will need to know about where you stand. It really speaks for itself.

I get it, I'm not PC.
Thanks

<>

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by diamond

I get it, I'm not PC.
Thanks

<>

whatever helps you sleep at night.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by diamond

I wouldn't let Adam Lambert babysit my children.

What was that about not judging, or hating gays?

What a crock!!!

And you thought you got the term 'bigot' for no reason...

[Se7en]

well to be fair, i've NEVER seen a (possibly intoxicated) hetero couple make out at a costume party.

[diamond]

Originally Posted by BVS

What was that about not judging, or hating gays?

What a crock!!!

And you thought you got the term 'bigot' for no reason...

well to be fair, i've NEVER seen a (possibly intoxicated) hetero couple make out at a costume party.

Have you seen his latest antics on stage?

<>

[VintagePunk]

The whole issue of child rearing has no bearing whatsoever on gay marriage. Guess what - gay people are raising children all over the place, right this minute! Single gay people, and cohabitating gay people. And guess what else - some of them are being screwed up by their gay parents, and some are being raised very, very well, just like with heterosexual parents! Is simply being able to be married going to change that fact? No.

So, the whole child thing should be completely off the table, it's nothing but a red herring, like every other argument from that side.

Diamond, you're disgusting.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by diamond

Have you seen his latest antics on stage?

<>

Have you seen Britney's?

Seriously, you've shown your true colors

[diamond]

Originally Posted by VintagePunk

disgusting.

Disgusting to some is equating the birthing process to fecal matter.

<>

[diamond]

Originally Posted by BVS

Have you seen Britney's?

Yes, and i wouldn't let her near my kids either.
I also wouldn't say she sh*ts out kids.

<>

[VintagePunk]

Originally Posted by diamond

Disgusting to some is equating the birthing process to fecal matter.

<>

Originally Posted by diamond

Yes, and i wouldn't let her near my kids either.
I also wouldn't say she sh*ts out kids.

<>

While maybe not the most pleasant thing to say, it's an expression used to convey how cavalierly some people have children, Ms. Spears included.

What were you trying to convey?

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by diamond

Disgusting to some is equating the birthing process to fecal matter.

<>

we now know who the drama queen is in this thread.

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

childbirth is not parenting. that's pretty basic, no?

Actually, for most parents, childbirth is the process of becoming a parent. The bond that forms between a mother and child in utero is well-documented. And for the vast, vast majority of couples, both a male and a female are necessary to procreate. Even for those who go about alternative forms of conception, the basic principles of a sperm cell and an egg still apply, for pity's sake. So trying to argue that biology doesn't make a difference in the parenting process -- and that the two sexes don't play unique and complimentary roles -- is a bit like pissing into the wind.

what does this have to do with marriage?

You're the one who asked the parenting question, Irvine. You were very specific.

tell me how birthing a child is being a parent, and tell me what is exclusive to gender when it comes to actual parenting.

The age-old debate, isn't it? I could quote Simon Baron-Cohen, a Cambridge professor of psychology and psychiatry, who claims that "the female brain is predominantly hard-wired for empathy, while the male brain is predominantly hard-wired for understanding and building systems." But that might get some people uncomfortable.

But I think I'll actually just quote a portion of our President's Father's Day speech instead:

"...Of all the rocks upon which we build our lives, we are reminded today that family is the most important. And we are called to recognize and honor how critical every father is to that foundation. They are teachers and coaches. They are mentors and role models. They are examples of success and the men who constantly push us toward it.

"But if we are honest with ourselves, we'll admit that what too many fathers also are is missing - missing from too many lives and too many homes. They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.

"You and I know how true this is in the African-American community. We know that more than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled - doubled - since we were children. We know the statistics - that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and twenty times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home, or become teenage parents themselves. And the foundations of our community are weaker because of it.

"...We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception. We need them to realize that what makes you a man is not the ability to have a child - it's the courage to raise one.

"We need to help all the mothers out there who are raising these kids by themselves; the mothers who drop them off at school, go to work, pick up them up in the afternoon, work another shift, get dinner, make lunches, pay the bills, fix the house, and all the other things it takes both parents to do. So many of these women are doing a heroic job, but they need support. They need another parent. Their children need another parent. That's what keeps their foundation strong. It's what keeps the foundation of our country strong."

[AEON]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

Actually, for most parents, childbirth is the process of becoming a parent. The bond that forms between a mother and child in utero is well-documented. And for the vast, vast majority of couples, both a male and a female are necessary to procreate. Even for those who go about alternative forms of conception, the basic principles of a sperm cell and an egg still apply, for pity's sake. So trying to argue that biology doesn't make a difference in the parenting process -- and that the two sexes don't play unique and complimentary roles -- is a bit like pissing into the wind.



You're the one who asked the parenting question, Irvine. You were very specific.



The age-old debate, isn't it? I could quote Simon Baron-Cohen, a Cambridge professor of psychology and psychiatry, who claims that "the female brain is predominantly hard-wired for empathy, while the male brain is predominantly hard-wired for understanding and building systems." But that might get some people uncomfortable.

But I think I'll actually just quote a portion of our President's Father's Day speech instead:

"...Of all the rocks upon which we build our lives, we are reminded today that family is the most important. And we are called to recognize and honor how critical every father is to that foundation. They are teachers and coaches. They are mentors and role models. They are examples of success and the men who constantly push us toward it.

"But if we are honest with ourselves, we'll admit that what too many fathers also are is missing - missing from too many lives and too many homes. They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.

"You and I know how true this is in the African-American community. We know that more than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled - doubled - since we were children. We know the statistics - that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and twenty times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home, or become teenage parents themselves. And the foundations of our community are weaker because of it.

"...We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception. We need them to realize that what makes you a man is not the ability to have a child - it's the courage to raise one.

"We need to help all the mothers out there who are raising these kids by themselves; the mothers who drop them off at school, go to work, pick up them up in the afternoon, work another shift, get dinner, make lunches, pay the bills, fix the house, and all the other things it takes both parents to do. So many of these women are doing a heroic job, but they need support. They need another parent. Their children need another parent. That's what keeps their foundation strong. It's what keeps the foundation of our country strong."

Nathan, they do not like this side of Barack Obama...

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

we now know who the drama queen is in this thread.

Oh no you dit-ten ! !

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

Actually, for most parents, childbirth is the process of becoming a parent. The bond that forms between a mother and child in utero is well-documented. And for the vast, vast majority of couples, both a male and a female are necessary to procreate. Even for those who go about alternative forms of conception, the basic principles of a sperm cell and an egg still apply, for pity's sake. So trying to argue that biology doesn't make a difference in the parenting process -- and that the two sexes don't play unique and complimentary roles -- is a bit like pissing into the wind.

what dont you understand about the fact that parenting and child birth are completely different? There are plenty of parents out there (or perhaps I should add the word 'vast' to make it sound more undeniable?) who have given birth to children and who have been the shittiest parents you could imagine. what does this do for your childbirth=parenting hypothesis? Have you ever even met anyone who was adopted or is that concept as foreign to you as it seems?

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

what dont you understand about the fact that parenting and child birth are completely different?

If you read the speech I posted, you'd know that the President agrees that it's one thing to have a child and another to raise it, but his point is clear -- if you have a child, you're a parent, and you need to raise your game.

It's a great speech. You should read it.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

Actually, for most parents, childbirth is the process of becoming a parent. The bond that forms between a mother and child in utero is well-documented. And for the vast, vast majority of couples, both a male and a female are necessary to procreate. Even for those who go about alternative forms of conception, the basic principles of a sperm cell and an egg still apply, for pity's sake.

but it isn't parenting, nathan. just ask the parents who've adopted children. or do they not count?

So trying to argue that biology doesn't make a difference in the parenting process -- and that the two sexes don't play unique and complimentary roles -- is a bit like pissing into the wind.

ok, here we go. the gender essentialism. we've come full circle, and this is the line of thinking that prompted the initial questions. you're saying that there are certain things that *only* men can do -- in parenting -- and that *only* women can do -- in parenting -- and yet you can't name a single thing. the conception of a child requires a sperm and an egg, indeed, but technology has magically given the infertile other options. the same with adoption.

so, again, nathan, and hopefully for the last time, what can a male parent do that a female parent cannot do? and, to push it just a bit further, do you think that anyone parents in a vacuum? or do parents rely on other people as well -- aunts, uncles, grandparents, coaches, teachers, other parents, older siblings, etc.? does it not take a village?

as you quoted below: "...We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception. We need them to realize that what makes you a man is not the ability to have a child - it's the courage to raise one."

so you've essentially shot the rest of your post in the foot.

You're the one who asked the parenting question, Irvine. You were very specific.

i'm still awaiting my answer.

you've pointed to parenting as a justification against marriage equality, and i'm holding your feet to the fire.

i understand that you're operating under these talking points:

8. Are you saying gays cannot be good parents?

A: “Two men might each be a good father, but neither can be a mom. The ideal for children is the love of their own mom and dad. No same-sex couple can provide that.”

9. What about older or infertile couples? If they marry why not same-sex couples?

A: “Every man and woman who marries is capable of giving any child they create (or adopt) a mother and a father. No same-sex couple can do this. It’s apples and oranges.”

Marriage Talking Points - National Organization for Marriage

and what we're saying is that good parents can meet a child's needs, and they know when to ask for help. and there could be differences between a gay household and a straight household, but there's not a shred of evidence to suggest that it's at all harmful to children. none.

in fact, the newest evidence suggests that two women might actually make the best parents. but i assume that will be ignored. as ever.

but this is all moot, anyway, since being a parent is not a requirement to marriage.

The age-old debate, isn't it? I could quote Simon Baron-Cohen, a Cambridge professor of psychology and psychiatry, who claims that "the female brain is predominantly hard-wired for empathy, while the male brain is predominantly hard-wired for understanding and building systems." But that might get some people uncomfortable.

how brave of you.

But I think I'll actually just quote a portion of our President's Father's Day speech instead:

i know, straights should make better fathers. but i hardly see how that's my fault, and i hardly see how my willingness to be a father myself is somehow a bad thing, nor do i have any idea what this has to do with marriage.

it's incredibly cheap and dishonest to try to tie this social issue to gay people.

"...Of all the rocks upon which we build our lives, we are reminded today that family is the most important. And we are called to recognize and honor how critical every father is to that foundation. They are teachers and coaches. They are mentors and role models. They are examples of success and the men who constantly push us toward it.

"But if we are honest with ourselves, we'll admit that what too many fathers also are is missing - missing from too many lives and too many homes. They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.

"You and I know how true this is in the African-American community. We know that more than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled - doubled - since we were children. We know the statistics - that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and twenty times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home, or become teenage parents themselves. And the foundations of our community are weaker because of it.

"...We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception. We need them to realize that what makes you a man is not the ability to have a child - it's the courage to raise one.

"We need to help all the mothers out there who are raising these kids by themselves; the mothers who drop them off at school, go to work, pick up them up in the afternoon, work another shift, get dinner, make lunches, pay the bills, fix the house, and all the other things it takes both parents to do. So many of these women are doing a heroic job, but they need support. They need another parent. Their children need another parent. That's what keeps their foundation strong. It's what keeps the foundation of our country strong."

so, tell me, which of these qualities mentioned above can a woman never, ever possess:

teachers
coaches
mentors
role models
examples of success
courage
drop them off at school
go to work
pick up them up in the afternoon
work another shift
get dinner
]make lunches
pay the bills
fix the house


which one?

your thinking on this is uncharacteristically blinkered, nathan. it's like when you kept pointing to whatever study that said that two parents were better than one, and you said that this meant that the best situation for a child was a home with a married mother and father. but that conclusion was wildly incomplete because the study didn't compare male/female to same-sex households. Yolland schooled you on this, and you sort of blinked, and then repeated the same thing.

you're like STING with Iraq on this subject.

and it's a sideshow (that i've indulged) from what this thread is about: marriage equality.