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Old 04-10-2009, 09:23 AM   #141
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Precedent provides patterns and justification, it may not always be right but it does have reason behind it.
You mean like legal precedent? Like Baker V. Nelson or Hernandez v. Robles (which consolidated several other legal cases as well). Or...

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But that being said, even if it is precedent you are speaking of, you still have failed time and time again as to why if the tradition or precedent were changed how it would effect you or society.
You mean things like the time-honored and Constitutionally-protected principles of freedom of speech and religion?

Faith groups losing gay rights fights - Washington Post- msnbc.com

* A Christian photographer was forced by the New Mexico Civil Rights Commission to pay $6,637 in attorney's costs after she refused to photograph a gay couple's commitment ceremony.
* A psychologist in Georgia was fired after she declined for religious reasons to counsel a lesbian about her relationship.
* Christian fertility doctors in California who refused to artificially inseminate a lesbian patient were barred by the state Supreme Court from invoking their religious beliefs in refusing treatment.
* A Christian student group was not recognized at a University of California law school because it denies membership to anyone practicing sex outside of traditional marriage.

To say nothing of Catholic adoption agencies forced to close in Boston, parents put in jail for refusing to allow their kids to learn about same-sex marriage, etc.
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Old 04-10-2009, 09:31 AM   #142
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[QUOTE=nathan1977;6079943]

You mean things like the time-honored and Constitutionally-protected principles of freedom of speech and religion?

And equal protection?
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Old 04-10-2009, 09:34 AM   #143
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As disgustingly hateful, yes I said it because I feel that it's true, as the attitudes of your martyrs are I think that they generally have the right to practice their beliefs.

But the cases are without context, and I would potentially support some of them (for instance I would have a problem with my student union fees being given to a bigotry group).

Your freedom of religious bigotry does not extend to public services or an expectation of respect from private organisations, by all means follow your God and hate the sinning which gays commit (by virtue of being both gay and sexual) but don't expect the rest of us to push it with public funds.

I support freedom of speech and freedom of religion, part of that is that I don't want my tax dollars supporting sectarian religions which I fundamentally disagree (for that reason I find the idea of moving to the United States to be perfectly fine, I respect your secular tradition), it would be no different if I was a Jew or a Christian, I don't think the state should have any role imposing the beliefs of any particular religion on the population.

You foster a one way street where Christianity gets unique protection against non-Religious public policy, now given the plurality of faiths and non-faiths in your Country it makes practical sense for the state to give no favour to any one religion, but it seems you cant hack it, and insist on crying discrimination against Christians (by Secularists or Atheists apparently) while actually preaching discrimination, it is a revolting attitude. I may have my objections to religion but I recognise that secularism protects my unbelief as much as belief and I respect the diversity of beliefs (I don't want to ban religions, I don't want to discriminate against those I disagree with - unless they are child abusers or causing harm), you on the other hand support discrimination against homosexuals on the basis of your religious beliefs and cultural attitudes, and actively foster a discriminatory attitude but couch it in terms of tradition and morality.

Your attitude is bigoted and doesn't deserve any recognition, if you feel this dismissal is unfair then please appreciate a fraction of what it is like to have your strong feelings denied, call it reciprocity.
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Old 04-10-2009, 09:46 AM   #144
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You mean like legal precedent?
Did you see the context behind that post?

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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
You mean things like the time-honored and Constitutionally-protected principles of freedom of speech and religion?
How would two women getting married effect your freedom of speech or religion? Those examples below do not show this... Please give me a real answer.

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* A Christian photographer was forced by the New Mexico Civil Rights Commission to pay $6,637 in attorney's costs after she refused to photograph a gay couple's commitment ceremony.
I don't get this one. Photographers are paid by contract, I would have to know the story behind this one...

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* A psychologist in Georgia was fired after she declined for religious reasons to counsel a lesbian about her relationship.
So this psychologist only signed on to fix straight relationships? Does she refuse those that are having sex outside of marriage... I sure hope so, otherwise she's just a hypocrite.

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* Christian fertility doctors in California who refused to artificially inseminate a lesbian patient were barred by the state Supreme Court from invoking their religious beliefs in refusing treatment.
What is a "Christian fertiltity doctor", doesn't he know only God can help those to procreate? Why is he playing God? I hope he screens all his clients and makes sure they are perfect straight married for life Christians.

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* A Christian student group was not recognized at a University of California law school because it denies membership to anyone practicing sex outside of traditional marriage.
How did this Christian group screen this? I knew a lot of Christians in college having pre-marital sex...

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To say nothing of Catholic adoption agencies forced to close in Boston, parents put in jail for refusing to allow their kids to learn about same-sex marriage, etc.
Oh noes, we have to learn something? Do they learn that sometimes mommy and daddy don't stay married for life?
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Old 04-10-2009, 10:05 AM   #145
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People get fired for not doing their job? Oh noez!!!1
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Old 04-10-2009, 10:34 AM   #146
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Nathan's right, guys. If a doctor doesn't want to inseminate lesbians Negroes because it's against his religion, why should he have to?
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Old 04-10-2009, 12:19 PM   #147
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Nathan's right, guys. If a doctor doesn't want to inseminate lesbians Negroes because it's against his religion, why should he have to?
And how dare we judge Octamom or her doctor.

Now, if your school district made you start teaching "Creationism" or worse, "American Exceptionalism," you'd go right along with it because you're just there to teach the curriculum and not your personal beliefs, right?
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Old 04-10-2009, 12:25 PM   #148
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Now, if your school district made you start teaching "Creationism" or worse, "American Exceptionalism," you'd go right along with it because you're just there to teach the curriculum and not your personal beliefs, right?
A-HA! You don't have me on ignore! You just won't answer the difficult questions.



Too bad.

When "Creationism" is real science, then we'll talk.

I do take an oath to uphold the Constitution, though. A document that just keeps getting in your way, doesn't it?
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Old 04-10-2009, 12:47 PM   #149
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people under 35 view laws and attitudes that harm gay people as bad things pushed on society by likewise bad people. you're free to argue with the kids, because this is a free society, but you're not free to get to have your beliefs go unchallenged and/or codified into law.
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The Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that 53 percent of Americans say capitalism is better, while 20 percent said they believe that socialism is the better system. Twenty-seven percent of respondents said they are not sure which is better.

The poll found that adults under 30 are evenly divided on which system is better, while adults over 40 strongly favor capitalism.
Are the "kids" equally correct in their economic beliefs?
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Old 04-10-2009, 12:48 PM   #150
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And how dare we judge Octamom or her doctor.
Considering that this is an issue of healthcare regulation and possible medical negligence, I don't see what on earth it has to do with what we're talking about. Really silly example.
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Old 04-10-2009, 01:02 PM   #151
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And how dare we judge Octamom or her doctor.

Now, if your school district made you start teaching "Creationism" or worse, "American Exceptionalism," you'd go right along with it because you're just there to teach the curriculum and not your personal beliefs, right?
Really bad examples.

The first is bad medicine regardless of any beliefs.

Creationism is not a science.

American Exceptionalism??? How do you teach arrogant myth?
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Old 04-10-2009, 01:04 PM   #152
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I don't see what on earth it has to do with what we're talking about.
He keeps bringing up irrelevant subjects so he doesn't have to answer any of the other questions people keep asking him.


For example:
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Are the "kids" equally correct in their economic beliefs?
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Old 04-10-2009, 01:06 PM   #153
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A-HA! You don't have me on ignore! You just won't answer the difficult questions.



Too bad.

When "Creationism" is real science, then we'll talk.

I do take an oath to uphold the Constitution, though. A document that just keeps getting in your way, doesn't it?
The California constitution now reads:
"Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California."

So get to upholding already !!!

As far as tough questions go. As soon as you answer why only the descriptive "man,woman" is discriminatory and not the quantifying "a,a" part. I'll answer any question you have.
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Old 04-10-2009, 01:09 PM   #154
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American Exceptionalism??? How do you teach arrogant myth?
Spoken like a true progressive, but thanks for not cussing.
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Old 04-10-2009, 01:10 PM   #155
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As far as tough questions go. As soon as you answer why only the descriptive "man,woman" is discriminatory and not the quantifying "a,a" part. I'll answer any question you have.

You've been answered this a thousand times, don't act like you haven't.
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Old 04-10-2009, 01:12 PM   #156
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As far as tough questions go. As soon as you answer why only the descriptive "man,woman" is discriminatory and not the quantifying "a,a" part. I'll answer any question you have.

OOhhhh, the old polygamy argument. Nice job!!

Now you don't ever have to answer any of the questions you've dodged!

You should feel great!

One more clarification: Do I have to teach "Creationism" to the Negro children in my class? It's against my religious beliefs. Integration is an abomination.
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Old 04-10-2009, 01:13 PM   #157
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Spoken like a true progressive, but thanks for not cussing.
Where are those examples of conservative platforms that are for change and reform that I asked you about?
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Old 04-10-2009, 01:18 PM   #158
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You won't get an answer. You'll get some other distractor.

Maybe something about animals. That one hasn't come up yet.
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Old 04-10-2009, 01:41 PM   #159
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A question that I sincerely want to ask of INDY and everyone who feels the same way - do you not realize that progress with respect to gay marriage is inevitable? Given that it is certain that within x decades, the "fight" for gay marriage will have been won, and will be a relic of the past, much like the civil rights movement, do you not think it is better to accept the winds of change with at least some modicum of grace and dignity, and recognize that maybe you are just not changing in step with the times? Perhaps that hurts, and perhaps it leaves you bitter or angry or disappointed that the world that you think is ideal is no longer here, but the reality of the matter is that probably many of our grandparents felt that way in the 1960s with civil rights and women's liberation movements. So the question is, do you want to relegate yourself to an irrelevant minority that will be viewed as bigoted almost universally, or do you want to try to embrace your gay and lesbian brothers, sisters, friends, neighbours, and afford them equal rights and the term marriage under the law? You are free to continue to practice your religious beliefs as you wish in your Churches, that is completely outside of what we are talking about here in terms of secular law.
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Old 04-10-2009, 02:28 PM   #160
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I think you spelled it out. People who oppose this should take a step back and look at the long view.

I was born in 1955. I do remember as a child hearing the arguments that people should have the right to choose who they want to serve in their businesses. That minorities, should not have special rights. If a business owner refused to serve a white person that person could not claim discrimination. Also, the States should decide these things for themselves. The Federal Government should stay out.

I also, remember many reasonable people opposed a National Holiday for MLK, Jr.
The cost of adding another paid holiday was too high. We do not have a Holiday for Lincoln. They merged Washington and Lincoln into "Presidents Day". Also, MLK Jr. was leaning towards Communism at his death.

Now they attack anyone that did not support MLK Jr as some sort of bigot.
People who lived through it, know that many people supported Civil Rights legislation but did not initially support MLK Jr. Day.

Anyways, I have been trying to make this same point with Gay Marriage.

I just say it in less words and a little more 'in your face' attitude, when I say things like 'one more chance to be on the wrong side of history'.

Funny, I was talking to a Mormon woman recently. She said it was inevitable. And she did not seem to care much.
I guess she figured out that "the gays" do not want to marry her.
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