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Old 11-14-2009, 09:30 AM   #881
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BVS, you and others in here have claimed that gay marriage is a basic human right. In this interview, Barak not only disagrees that gay marriage is a human right, he goes so far as to define marriage as a union between a man and a woman and that it is a holy, ordained act before God ("God is involved")

He then proposes "civil unions" similar to the ones proposed by more conservative minds.

As passionate as you and some people here seem about the issue, it is hard to believe you are letting Barak off the hook by claiming him "as a president who politically had to play the fence" - which president does not have this burden? The words Barak Obama used in this interview months before the election to define marriage are the same words used by myself and others in here over the years. What will his grandchildren think of him when they hear this?

i disagree, strongly, with Obama on this issue. i also think that the Democrats, as they usually are, are being weak on this issue, and i think everyone is disappointed that Obama couldn't lend a hand at all in Maine. however, we are also aware of the political realities of now. what more do you want from us?


an example: do you think that George W Bush *really* wanted a constitutional amendment to discriminate against gay people? or do you think he did that for political reasons?
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Old 11-14-2009, 09:32 AM   #882
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It's just the unalienable rights of man listed by the Declaration of Independence, to which I hear conservatives on talk shows bring up every chance they get... why don't they believe them?
I thought you were asserting they were in the Constitution. My apologies.
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Old 11-14-2009, 09:39 AM   #883
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BVS, you and others in here have claimed that gay marriage is a basic human right. In this interview, Barak not only disagrees that gay marriage is a human right, he goes so far as to define marriage as a union between a man and a woman and that it is a holy, ordained act before God ("God is involved")

He then proposes "civil unions" similar to the ones proposed by more conservative minds.

As passionate as you and some people here seem about the issue, it is hard to believe you are letting Barak off the hook by claiming him "as a president who politically had to play the fence" - which president does not have this burden? The words Barak Obama used in this interview months before the election to define marriage are the same words used by myself and others in here over the years. What will his grandchildren think of him when they hear this?
I haven't given him a pass, I think he's wrong.
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Old 11-14-2009, 09:47 AM   #884
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what more do you want from us?
The same understanding and leeway offered to liberals that also define marriage as between one man and one woman. There is obviously more room for debate on the matter - and we shouldn't be seen as "homophobic" and "intolerant" any more than you would consider Obama and Democrats as "homophobic" and "intolerant" -

Quote:
an example: do you think that George W Bush *really* wanted a constitutional amendment to discriminate against gay people?
What do you mean by "discriminate against gay people?" - are you referring to the declaration that marriage is between one man and one woman - as Barak Obama does above? If so, do you consider Barak Obama as someone who wishes to "discriminate against gay people"?
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Old 11-14-2009, 09:52 AM   #885
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i think Deenan is more biased.
As well as the ACLU?
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Old 11-14-2009, 09:58 AM   #886
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Sure it will. Just look at all those people back in the day who tried to keep the races pure. We all think they were the heroes. They were just trying to keep things the way the Bible intended. What was the harm?
Do you feel this way about everyone who thinks that marriage is between a man and a woman? Or is this warm and fuzzy reserved for conservatives that agree with liberals on this issue?
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:12 AM   #887
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The same understanding and leeway offered to liberals that also define marriage as between one man and one woman. There is obviously more room for debate on the matter - and we shouldn't be seen as "homophobic" and "intolerant" any more than you would consider Obama and Democrats as "homophobic" and "intolerant"

do you think that Obama and the Democrats are as outwardly hostile to gay people as the Republicans?

i think that Obama holds a discriminatory belief against gay people. however, Obama also supported the CA court decision that allowed gays to marry in 2008, he supports full adoption rights, he supports full benefits for same-sex partners, he supports the repeal of DOMA, he supports the repeal of DADT. generally, Obama supports everything but the word "marriage" -- and it is my opinion that is for political reasons. so he's cowardly.

please contrast this to mainstream Republicans and their constituents. you will find a world of difference. certainly the Democrats are not perfect partners, and they take considerable gay money and give little in return. but when faced with a party that is eager for the social eradication of gay people, we have little choice but to go with Democrats.
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:14 AM   #888
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As well as the ACLU?


the irony of a conservative referencing the ACLU isn't lost on me.

i also don't agree with everything the ACLU does, but i do think they are consistent.
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:16 AM   #889
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Do you feel this way about everyone who thinks that marriage is between a man and a woman?

do you think it's possible, AEON, for you to retain this belief and to teach this belief to your children, while at the same time, gay people are allowed to enter into civil marriages in CA?

you've just referenced the ACLU -- so do you believe in civil rights only when it's advantageous for you?
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:19 AM   #890
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the irony of a conservative referencing the ACLU isn't lost on me.
Agreed...

However, don't you find that "perhaps" you are being a little extreme when the even the ACLU is taking the side of the Catholic Church in this case?
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:24 AM   #891
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you've just referenced the ACLU -- so do you believe in civil rights only when it's advantageous for you?
I agree with Clinton and Obama that gay marriage is not a civil right.
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:29 AM   #892
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However, don't you find that "perhaps" you are being a little extreme when the even the ACLU is taking the side of the Catholic Church in this case?

no, i don't.

but i don't think that you have accurately represented the ACLU's opinion. they aren't "taking the side of the Catholic Church." here's what Deneen, who i do think isn't a disinterested party, has to say:


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Denton, Md.: Hasn't the ACLU also voiced its opinion to the D.C. Council on this? They also asked for broader protections for religious groups, right? The Council should listen when the Church and the ACLU are agreeing on an issue.

Patrick J. Deneen: The ACLU testified at the testimony that the proposed legislation represented a narrowing of religious liberty. They proposed a broader religious exemption than the originally proposed bill. The original bill proposed no religious exemptions for any religious organizations that serves the general public(whether they use public funding or not). The ACLU argued for broader exemptions than are in the current legislation - for instance, the ACLU argued for the protection of private individuals who would refuse - on the basis of faith commitments - to provide goods or services for the solemnization of marriage. The current proposed legislation does not provide for any such exemption of private individuals. Here the argument was made not (only) by religious institutions, but the ACLU.

that's far milder than what the church is threatening to do.

if the church wishes to receive government money with which it then seeks to aid the poor, all the church has to do is to give all their employees the same benefits whether they are married to a person of the same gender or the opposite gender. that's it. is that really so awful? that they have to follow the rules?
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:29 AM   #893
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so he's cowardly.
I think so too.

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I agree with Clinton and Obama that gay marriage is not a civil right.
And all three of you will be looked at with pity in a few decades as men who believed in discrimination. Two of them did it for political reasons. I have no idea why you do it.
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:34 AM   #894
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And all three of you will be looked at with pity in a few decades as men who believed in discrimination.
You seriously think this is how Clinton and Obama will be remembered?

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Two of them did it for political reasons. I have no idea why you do it.
My conscience.
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:36 AM   #895
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My conscience.


your conscience tells you that you that any and all gay couples are inferior to any and all straight couples?
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:44 AM   #896
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You seriously think this is how Clinton and Obama will be remembered?
Among their many flaws, this will be a big one.

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My conscience.
Then you may not be as honorable as you think you are. If you can honestly say your conscience allows you to exclude law-abiding adults from Constitutional rights, then your honor isn't as shiny as you want it to be.

That's what people will see and remember when gays and lesbians finally have full Constitutional rights.
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Old 11-14-2009, 11:11 AM   #897
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As passionate as you and some people here seem about the issue, it is hard to believe you are letting Barak off the hook by claiming him "as a president who politically had to play the fence" - which president does not have this burden? The words Barak Obama used in this interview months before the election to define marriage are the same words used by myself and others in here over the years. What will his grandchildren think of him when they hear this?
Could you at least spell the man's name correctly?

I think 99% of your government is wrong on this issue (for political reasons) and he's wrong along with them.

I would like to ask you to outline the negative effects that legalizing gay marriage has had in nations where it is legal today. How has Canadian, Dutch, Spanish etc. society suffered, tangibly or otherwise, from this legislative move?
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Old 11-14-2009, 11:39 AM   #898
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Then you may not be as honorable as you think you are.
Probably not, but I try.

Do you feel it is more honorable to have an opinion based on conscience or one based on politics?

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If you can honestly say your conscience allows you to exclude law-abiding adults from Constitutional rights, then your honor isn't as shiny as you want it to be.
As of this moment, gay marriage is not a Constitutional right.
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That's what people will see and remember when gays and lesbians finally have full Constitutional rights.
Many believe they already do have full Constitutional rights...
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Old 11-14-2009, 11:41 AM   #899
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your conscience tells you that you that any and all gay couples are inferior to any and all straight couples?
A little bit of a loaded question...

My conscience tells me that BaraCk Obama is correct - that a marriage is a union between a man and a woman ordained by God.
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Old 11-14-2009, 11:47 AM   #900
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no, i don't.

if the church wishes to receive government money with which it then seeks to aid the poor, all the church has to do is... [Go against a core teaching] that's it. is that really so awful? that they have to follow the rules?
The insert is mine. I hope you are beginning to see which organization is putting conditions on the funding. You just said it yourself - "all the church has to do is..."

That, by definition, is conditional.
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