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Old 05-28-2009, 08:48 AM   #561
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^ Which is why Steve and I got married, not domestically partnered, not civil unioned.
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Old 05-28-2009, 09:21 AM   #562
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If Prop 8 were worded as :a marriage shall be between a man and a woman and gay partnerships can have similar benefits that men and women have who cohabitate, I would be ok with that.

<>
That's really generous of you.

Similar rights sound great to me.
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Old 05-28-2009, 09:24 AM   #563
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Cohabitate matters?

I guess that should be good enough for gay couples..
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Old 05-28-2009, 12:22 PM   #564
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Only two?

"And David knew that the LORD had established him as king of Israel and had exalted his rule for the sake of his people Israel. David took more concubines and wives in Jerusalem after he had come from Hebron, and more sons and daughters were born to him in Jerusalem." - 2 Samuel 5:12-13

"[King Solomon] had seven hundred wives of princely rank and three hundred concubines..." - 1 Kings 11:3

Leviticus' only restriction on polygamy?

"While your wife is still living you shall not marry her sister as her rival; for thus you would disgrace your first wife." - Leviticus 18:18

You're choosing to selectively omit the word "polygamous" in this type of marriage which has been sanctioned by God in the scripture for periods of time through out history.

Gay unions have never been sanctioned by God in the scripture, anciently or modernly.

That said "polygamous marriages" still fall under the umbrealla of "marriage" because there are both male and females involved (albeit one male) in the union or contract-altho polygamous marriages are outlawed today. Even in states that allow gay weddings which lean liberal-and I'm ok with polygamous marriages being outlawed, at the end of the day-I'm about law and order.

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Old 05-28-2009, 12:46 PM   #565
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Gay unions have never been sanctioned by God in the scripture, anciently or modernly.



so? what does this have to do with anything?

your insistence on maintaining a distinction belies the discrimination and assumption of inherent superiority of a hetero couple to a homo couple.

if that's what you get from your religion, fine. but your religion is not law, and it also speaks pretty poorly of your religion, if that's the only place you can go to find justification for discrimination. i don't see what's so important about your own "definition" of the word. what do you think will be lost if gay people were allowed to be married? where's the harm? where's the foul? i think we can point out specific cases where discrimination in marriage actively harms gay people and their children. but where's the reverse? i'd argue that same-sex marriage is good for everybody.

fortunately, the kids don't agree with you at all diamond, and before long, gay couples will be treated equally in most of the states, and more importantly, since the states with higher populations (NY, NJ, CA) are much more likely to make marriage equal than those with lower populations. so, soon, the majority of Americans will live in a place where gay couples are treated as legally equal to straight couples.
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Old 05-28-2009, 12:52 PM   #566
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We'll see.

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Old 05-28-2009, 12:55 PM   #567
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We'll see.

<>
Yes, we will.

How's that search for Obama's real birth certificate coming, btw?
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Old 05-28-2009, 01:12 PM   #568
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Yes, we will.

How's that search for Obama's real birth certificate coming, btw?
nice one.
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:11 PM   #569
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When your only argument (besides the whopping transgression of changing a word's definition) is a religious one, then quite honestly you don't have a legitimate argument in a secular society, which this is. The Bible is not the ultimate authority when it comes to the laws of this country, as much as you'd like it to be. Frankly, I don't think a lot of Christians realize the can of worms that would be opened were we to actually make the Bible the law of the land.

Your religion has been able to grow and thrive because of this secular society, not in spite of it.
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:11 PM   #570
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here's a new twist from the increasingly desperate anti-marriage equality wing.

gay marriage poses the biggest threat of all to ... the (literal or metaphoric) sanctity of the vagina.

srsly.


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This most profound aspect of marriage--protecting and controlling the sexuality of the child-bearing sex--is its only true reason for being, and it has no equivalent in same-sex marriage. Virginity until marriage, arranged marriages, the special status of the sexuality of one partner but not the other (and her protection from the other sex)--these motivating forces for marriage do not apply to same-sex lovers.

Second, kinship modifies marriage by imposing a set of rules that determines not only whom one may marry (someone from the right clan or family, of the right age, with proper abilities, wealth, or an adjoining vineyard), but, more important, whom one may not marry. Incest prohibition and other kinship rules that dictate one's few permissible and many impermissible sweethearts are part of traditional marriage. Gay marriage is blissfully free of these constraints. There is no particular reason to ban sexual intercourse between brothers, a father and a son of consenting age, or mother and daughter. There are no questions of ritual pollution: Will a hip Rabbi refuse to marry a Jewish man--even a Cohen--to a Gentile man? Do Irish women avoid Italian women? A same-sex marriage fails utterly to create forbidden relationships. If Tommy marries Bill, and they divorce, and Bill later marries a woman and has a daughter, no incest prohibition prevents Bill's daughter from marrying Tommy. The relationship between Bill and Tommy is a romantic fact, but it can't be fitted into the kinship system.

Third, marriage changes the nature of sexual relations between a man and a woman. Sexual intercourse between a married couple is licit; sexual intercourse before marriage, or adulterous sex during marriage, is not. Illicit sex is not necessarily a crime, but licit sexual intercourse enjoys a sanction in the moral universe, however we understand it, from which premarital and extramarital copulation is excluded. More important, the illicit or licit nature of heterosexual copulation is transmitted to the child, who is deemed legitimate or illegitimate based on the metaphysical category of its parents' coition.

Now to live in such a system, in which sexual intercourse can be illicit, is a great nuisance. Many of us feel that licit sexuality loses, moreover, a bit of its oomph. Gay lovers live merrily free of this system. Can we imagine Frank's family and friends warning him that "If Joe were serious, he would put a ring on your finger"? Do we ask Vera to stop stringing Sally along? Gay sexual practice is not sortable into these categories--licit-if-married but illicit-if-not (children adopted by a gay man or hygienically conceived by a lesbian mom can never be regarded as illegitimate). Neither does gay copulation become in any way more permissible, more noble after marriage. It is a scandal that homosexual intercourse should ever have been illegal, but having become legal, there remains no extra sanction--the kind which fathers with shotguns enforce upon heterosexual lovers. I am not aware of any gay marriage activist who suggests that gay men and women should create a new category of disapproval for their own sexual relationships, after so recently having been freed from the onerous and bigoted legal blight on homosexual acts. But without social disapproval of unmarried sex--what kind of madman would seek marriage?

Fourth, marriage defines the end of childhood, sets a boundary between generations within the same family and between families, and establishes the rules in any given society for crossing those boundaries. Marriage usually takes place at the beginning of adulthood; it changes the status of bride and groom from child in the birth family to adult in a new family. In many societies, such as village India and Jewish Chicagoland, a new bride becomes no more than an unpaid servant to her mother- and sisters-in-law. Even in modern romantic marriages, a groom becomes the hunting or business partner of his father-in-law and a member of his clubs; a bride becomes an ally of her mother-in-law in controlling her husband. There can, of course, be warm relations between families and their children's same-sex partners, but these come about because of liking, sympathy, and the inherent kindness of many people. A wedding between same-sex lovers does not create the fact (or even the feeling) of kinship between a man and his husband's family; a woman and her wife's kin. It will be nothing like the new kinship structure that a marriage imposes willy-nilly on two families who would otherwise loathe each other.

Marriage is also an initiation rite. Before World War II, high school graduation was accompanied by a burst of engagements; nowadays college graduation begins a season of weddings that go on every weekend for some years. In contrast, gay weddings are rather middle-aged affairs. My impression is borne out by the one available statistic, from the province of British Columbia, showing that the participants in first-time same-sex weddings are 13 years older, on average, then first-time brides-and-grooms. This feels about right. After all, declaring gay marriage legal will not produce the habit of saving oneself for marriage or create a culture which places a value on virginity or chastity (concepts that are frequently mocked in gay culture precisely because they are so irrelevant to gay romantic life). But virginity and chastity before marriage, license after--these are the burdens of real marriage, honored in spirit if not in letter, creating for women (women as modern as Beyoncé) the right to demand a tangible sacrifice from the men who would adore them.

These four aspects of marriage are not rights, but obligations. They are marriage's "a priori" because marriage is a part of the kinship system, and kinship depends on the protection, organization, and often the exploitation of female sexuality vis-à-vis males. None of these facts apply at all to love between people of the same sex, however solemn and profound that love may be. In gay marriage there are no virgins (actual or honorary), no incest, no illicit or licit sex, no merging of families, no creation of a new lineage. There's just my honey and me, and (in a rapidly increasing number of U.S. states) baby makes three.

What's wrong with this? In one sense, nothing at all. Gays who marry can be congratulated or regarded as foolish based on their individual choices, just as I might covet or lament the women my straight friends espouse. In fact, gay couples who marry enter into a relationship that married people might envy. Gay marriage may reside outside the kinship system, but it has all the wedding-planning, nest-building fun of marriage but none of its rules or obligations (except the duties that all lovers have toward one another). Gay spouses have none of our guilt about sex-before-marriage. They have no tedious obligations towards in-laws, need never worry about Oedipus or Electra, won't have to face a menacing set of brothers or aunts should they betray their spouse. But without these obligations--why marry? Gay marriage is as good as no marriage at all.

Sooner rather than later, the substantial differences between marriage and gay marriage will cause gay marriage, as a meaningful and popular institution, to fail on its own terms. Since gay relationships exist perfectly well outside the kinship system, to assume the burdens of marriage--the legal formalities, the duty of fidelity (which is no easier for gays than it is for straights), the slavishly imitative wedding ritual--will come to seem a nuisance. People in gay marriages will discover that mimicking the cozy bits of romantic heterosexual marriage does not make relationships stronger; romantic partners more loving, faithful, or sexy; domestic life more serene or exciting. They will discover that it is not the wedding vow that maintains marriages, but the force of the kinship system. Kinship imposes duties, penalties, and retribution that champagne toasts, self-designed wedding rings, and thousands of dollars worth of flowers are powerless to effect.

Few men would ever bother to enter into a romantic heterosexual marriage--much less three, as I have done--were it not for the iron grip of necessity that falls upon us when we are unwise enough to fall in love with a woman other than our mom. There would be very few flowerings of domestic ecstasy were it not for the granite underpinnings of marriage. Gay couples who marry are bound to be disappointed in marriage's impotence without these ghosts of past authority. Marriage has a lineage more ancient than any divine revelation, and before any system of law existed, kinship crushed our ancestors with complex and pitiless rules about incest, family, tribe, and totem. Gay marriage, which can be created by any passel of state supreme court justices with degrees from middling law schools, lacking the authority and majesty of the kinship system, will be a letdown.

When, in spite of current enthusiasm, gay marriage turns out to disappoint or bore the couples now so eager for its creation, its failure will be utterly irrelevant for gay people. The happiness of gay relationships up to now has had nothing to do with being married or unmarried; nor will they in the future. I suspect that the gay marriage movement will be remembered as a faintly humorous, even embarrassing stage in the liberation saga of the gay minority. The archetypal gay wedding portrait--a pair of middle-aged women or paunchy men looking uncomfortable in rented outfits worn at the wrong time of day--is destined to be hung in the same gallery of dated images of social progress alongside snapshots of flappers defiantly puffing cigarettes and Kodachromes of African Americans wearing dashikis. The freedom of gays to live openly as they please will easily survive the death of gay marriage.

So if the failure of gay marriage will not affect gay people, who will it hurt? Only everybody else.

As kinship fails to be relevant to gays, it will become fashionable to discredit it for everyone. The irrelevance of marriage to gay people will create a series of perfectly reasonable, perfectly unanswerable questions: If gays can aim at marriage, yet do without it equally well, who are we to demand it of one another? Who are women to demand it of men? Who are parents to demand it of their children's lovers--or to prohibit their children from taking lovers until parents decide arbitrarily they are "mature" or "ready"? By what right can government demand that citizens obey arbitrary and culturally specific kinship rules--rules about incest and the age of consent, rules that limit marriage to twosomes? Mediocre lawyers can create a fiction called gay marriage, but their idealism can't compel gay lovers to find it useful. But talented lawyers will be very efficient at challenging the complicated, incoherent, culturally relative survival from our most primitive social organization we call kinship. The whole set of fundamental, irrational assumptions that make marriage such a burden and such a civilizing force can easily be undone.

There is no doubt that women and children have suffered throughout human history from being over-protected and controlled. The consequences of under-protection and indifference will be immeasurably worse. In a world without kinship, women will lose their hard-earned status as sexual beings with personal autonomy and physical security. Children will lose their status as nonsexual beings.

Kinship creates these protections by adding the dimension of time, space, and thought to our sense of ourselves as food-eating, sex-having, child-rearing creatures. It makes us conscious not only of our parents and siblings but of their parents and siblings--our ancestors and our group identity. The family relations kinship creates--parents, godparents, uncles and sisters-in-law, cousins, clan, tribe, kingdom, nation--expand our sense of where we live and how we live. In our thought, kinship forces us to move beyond thoughtless obedience to instinct: It gives us a morality based on custom, "always adaptable and susceptible to the nuance of the situation." It makes past experience relevant to current behavior (I quote Michael Oakeshott and paraphrase Peter Winch) and gives us the ability to choose one way of conduct rather than another--the ability which Oakeshott says brings the moral life into being. The commonality of incest prohibitions and marriage rules from one community to another is a sign that we have moved from unselfconscious instinct-obedience (which works well enough to avoid parent-child incest in other species) to the elaboration of human kinship relationships in all their mutations and varieties--all of which have the same core (the organization of female sexuality, the avoidance of incest) but exist in glorious variety. Like the other great human determinant, language, kinship is infinitely variable in form but exists in some form everywhere.

Can gay men and women be as generous as we straight men are? Will you consider us as men who love, just as you do, and not merely as homophobes or Baptists? Every day thousands of ordinary heterosexual men surrender the dream of gratifying our immediate erotic desires. Instead, heroically, resignedly, we march up the aisle with our new brides, starting out upon what that cad poet Shelley called the longest journey, attired in the chains of the kinship system--a system from which you have been spared. Imitate our self-surrender. If gay men and women could see the price that humanity--particularly the women and children among us--will pay, simply in order that a gay person can say of someone she already loves with perfect competence, "Hey, meet the missus!"--no doubt they will think again. If not, we're about to see how well humanity will do without something as basic to our existence as gravity.

The Worst Thing About Gay Marriage


i guess i'm glad that the world he describes as now being dangerously in peril by Adam and Steve has already been abandoned by most straights.
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:20 PM   #571
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few men would ever bother to enter into a romantic heterosexual marriage--much less three, as i have done--were it not for the iron grip of necessity that falls upon us when we are unwise enough to fall in love with a woman other than our mom. There would be very few flowerings of domestic ecstasy were it not for the granite underpinnings of marriage. Gay couples who marry are bound to be disappointed in marriage's impotence without these ghosts of past authority. Marriage has a lineage more ancient than any divine revelation, and before any system of law existed, kinship crushed our ancestors with complex and pitiless rules about incest, family, tribe, and totem. Gay marriage, which can be created by any passel of state supreme court justices with degrees from middling law schools, lacking the authority and majesty of the kinship system, will be a letdown.

wtf
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:21 PM   #572
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Well, you heard the man, gang. The only true reason for marriage's existence is to protect and control the sexuality of the child-bearing sex. It's not even procreation anymore. It's all about protecting those poor, helpless little child-bearers from deviant sexuality.

Me, I personally can't wait to get married so I can properly control my wife's sexuality. It's all I look forward to!
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:22 PM   #573
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wtf
This.
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:27 PM   #574
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Me, I personally can't wait to get married so I can properly control my wife's sexuality. It's all I look forward to!



well, it's not so much that you're controlling her, per se, but more that you and she have clasped hands and mutually declared that her vagina is off limits to other men, so they'll just have to take themselves down to the brothel, thank you very much.
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:30 PM   #575
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Sam Schulman, in my opinion is a niche writer, you can also look up his article on atheism.

I don't know how many bother to go down the same road he does, to arrive at similar conclusions.
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:32 PM   #576
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Can we imagine Frank's family and friends warning him that "If Joe were serious, he would put a ring on your finger"?
Yes, actually, I can.

People treating same-sex couples just like opposite-sex couples? Someone give me some pearls so I can clutch them in horror.
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:35 PM   #577
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My very favourite bit from article Irving posted:

Quote:
Few men would ever bother to enter into a romantic heterosexual marriage--much less three, as I have done--were it not for the iron grip of necessity that falls upon us when we are unwise enough to fall in love with a woman other than our mom.


The article has to be a parody...it just has to be. It's waaaay too over the top to be real.
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:38 PM   #578
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this is my favorite part:

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Can gay men and women be as generous as we straight men are? Will you consider us as men who love, just as you do, and not merely as homophobes or Baptists? Every day thousands of ordinary heterosexual men surrender the dream of gratifying our immediate erotic desires. Instead, heroically, resignedly, we march up the aisle with our new brides, starting out upon what that cad poet Shelley called the longest journey, attired in the chains of the kinship system--a system from which you have been spared. Imitate our self-surrender. If gay men and women could see the price that humanity--particularly the women and children among us--will pay, simply in order that a gay person can say of someone she already loves with perfect competence, "Hey, meet the missus!"--no doubt they will think again. If not, we're about to see how well humanity will do without something as basic to our existence as gravity.

this is what it boils down to: gay marriage threatens because it's a union of equals.
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:39 PM   #579
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much less three, as I have done--were it not for the iron grip
one for the gripper
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:49 PM   #580
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Instead, heroically, resignedly, we march up the aisle with our new brides, starting out upon what that cad poet Shelley called the longest journey, attired in the chains of the kinship system--a system from which you have been spared.
He couldn't have been sober writing this, hilarious...this sounds like the ramblings of a shotgun-married, thrice-divorced, alimony-paying, down-by-the-river-living barfly.
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