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Old 04-23-2009, 09:58 AM   #321
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Everytime anyone gives Perez Hilton any attention, an angel gets its wings ripped off. I can't believe he's become some sort of spokesperson for this story - it makes me want to bang my head against a sharp, immobile object.
Same here. He's gay and that's the only reason I give him any reason to be any sort of spokesperson. Donald Trump sure does know what he's doing though.
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Old 04-23-2009, 03:56 PM   #322
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while i think Obama is a coward on this issue -- i expect him to change his position after being re-elected in 2012 --
A tad optimistic don't ya think? But I too expect, after no longer having to face an electorate, Obama to jettison his current view on gay marriage. Right along with "95% of you will see not a dime of tax increases."
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also -- doesn't it say something to you that Perez Hilton -- Perez Hilton! -- is all you have right now?
Perez Hilton. As I say, never heard of the guy until this week. I only bring it up because one side responds in favor of traditional marriage (with the caveat of an apology no less ), and the response? Slurs and incredulity that anyone in the 21st century could still believe such a thing. Been there, done that, I guess.
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the argument is winding down.
AIDS had an enormous affect on the homosexual population, one being it taught you how to play the game of politics. From this came the push for hospital visitation rights, healthcare coverage for domestic partners and other legal protections. Frankly, 98% of us hadn't given much thought to the need for such rights but (regardless of what you may have heard), Americans are a compassionate people. We agreed. Thus was born the idea of civil unions. Are you with me so far?

However, without really even giving the concept a chance to work and now emboldened, came the cry for same-sex marriage. "No second class citizenship." But asking for recognition as equals under the law and recognition as equals in functionality are two different requests. "We're here and we're queer." seemingly replaced overnight by "Hey, we're just like you." Now which is it because it seems to me it can't be both?

Rock n Roll started out as a noisy rebel out on the fringes of "normal" society too. And what did mainstream acceptance do to it? It killed it. RIP It couldn't be both either as guaranteed sales trumped originality and image became more important than talent. The lyrics in my sig, sadly, now used to market Burger King double-cheeseburgers.

Hollywood and the MSM doesn't share values. TV doesn't cater to me because at 49 I'm outside their demographics. The less said about hip-hop the better. I'm officially non persona in the world of pop culture.
Cool, I'm back to being the rebel. Now where is my Zep 4 album as "it's been a long time since I did the stroll."
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Old 04-23-2009, 04:26 PM   #323
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A tad optimistic don't ya think? But I too expect, after no longer having to face an electorate, Obama to jettison his current view on gay marriage. Right along with "95% of you will see not a dime of tax increases."

i don't think it's much of a secret that most Democrats are probably personally in favor of gay marriage and are just waiting until it's not politically ruinous to do so. and it isn't, anymore, at least in the northeast. and let's see how Gavin Newsom does running for Gov of CA.

it might be a tad optimistic for the president, but by 2015, you'll see the northeast and all of the West Coast treating gay couples equally under the law.



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Perez Hilton. As I say, never heard of the guy until this week. I only bring it up because one side responds in favor of traditional marriage (with the caveat of an apology no less ), and the response? Slurs and incredulity that anyone in the 21st century could still believe such a thing. Been there, done that, I guess
.


we have an idiot celebrity gossip monger who no one likes, you have Fred Phelps. if we want to play this game.


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AIDS had an enormous affect on the homosexual population, one being it taught you how to play the game of politics. From this came the push for hospital visitation rights, healthcare coverage for domestic partners and other legal protections. Frankly, 98% of us hadn't given much thought to the need for such rights but (regardless of what you may have heard), Americans are a compassionate people. We agreed. Thus was born the idea of civil unions. Are you with me so far?

yes, INDY, i'm with you. you're also -- generally -- historically accurate. gays learned that they needed legal rights to prevent angry, vindictive parents from swooping in and seizing a lifetime of shared assets if one partner died, or preventing a partner from visiting the other in a hospital.

you realize, though, that civil unions, while certainly the mainstream position, are anathema to many in the GOP. and while many gays, such as myself, would take what we can get, the evolving discussion surrounding civil unions -- which were radical for VT as recent as 2001, i believe -- has gotten to a point where the very correct observation has been made that they're the very definition of "separate but equal," which as we know is unconstitutional. and many gay people are rejecting the internalized homophobia that we grew up with and are saying that our lives are every bit as worthy as anyone else's. this is easier for the kids today, as homophobia has lessened over the decades -- though queers are still bashed regularly -- but it's still a relatively new thing, for gays as well as straights, this notion of equality.


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However, without really even giving the concept a chance to work and now emboldened, came the cry for same-sex marriage. "No second class citizenship." But asking for recognition as equals under the law and recognition as equals in functionality are two different requests. "We're here and we're queer." seemingly replaced overnight by "Hey, we're just like you." Now which is it because it seems to me it can't be both?
we're one but we're not the same? that's been around since 1991.

there's been an evolution, in the minds of gays as well, that has gone from, "i am different, i am gay, there is nothing wrong with me," to "i am gay, i am equal to you." that even mirrors the coming out process.

but i don't understand why this is so difficult to grasp. the fact that homosexuality is exactly the same as heterosexuality, except for the fact that the attraction is for the same gender. like, that's it. it's a step-by-step process, and while we could say that the pace of political change is fast, i don't think it's a concept that's all that difficult to grasp.

the fact that you can't come up with a difference between Irvine/Memphis and Martha/Steve is indicative, to me, of prejudice.
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Old 04-23-2009, 04:57 PM   #324
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My point is not a pity party but this. Is it any doubt Americans under 30 support same-sex marriage when they are offered no other POV? Parents or pastors you say.
A person can easily find whatever point of view he wants to find. This is the information age, right?


This under 30 year-old thinks an American taxpayer should be allowed to engage in a marriage contract with (one) other consenting adult. Civil unions would be fine too, but I do see the 'separate but equal' argument and don't think it's worth the energy to debate.
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Old 04-23-2009, 05:17 PM   #325
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My point is not a pity party but this. Is it any doubt Americans under 30 support same-sex marriage when they are offered no other POV? Parents or pastors you say. Well they're adults and since when did anyone under 30 think they had a clue?
I am part of this demographic for only 6 more months, but frankly, there isn't another "POV" necessary. People of my age grew up knowing openly gay people, I have many gay friends, I once upon a time had an openly lesbian roommate, and I love all of them dearly. I see no difference between them and myself and likewise, there should be no difference under the law. We have grown up watching these people's relationships long enough to know that it isn't what's between your legs that determines longevity or mutual respect for one another, and therefore there IS NO OTHER point of view for us, because it's simply not supported by our lifelong experiences.

I have no idea why and how the ability of two men down the street to marry has anything at all to do with you. There are now multiple countries in the world where this has been going on for years, they haven't spontaneously burst into flames and absolutely nothing has changed there for the vast majority (heterosexuals). But you either discount this, or don't believe it, or simply don't care, because at the end of the day, it's your country that's exceptional.
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Old 04-23-2009, 05:45 PM   #326
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Rock n Roll started out as a noisy rebel out on the fringes of "normal" society too. And what did mainstream acceptance do to it? It killed it.

There's plenty of excellent rock and roll around now.

I'm glad I'm not as old as you.
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Old 04-23-2009, 05:52 PM   #327
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Cool, I'm back to being the rebel.
This new season of Fox brings you:

'The Status Quo Rebel'

starring new comer, INDY500.

This aging conservative tries to find his place in 2009 society surrounded by liberal media, liberal government, liberal youth, liberal armchairs, liberal cars, and even liberal churches as he longs for the romanticized Leave it to Beaver days. You thought Archie Bunker was a hoot, wait till you see the zany adventures of this guy as he grumbles his way through an evolving society. How does he deal with his teenage daughter who wants to get an energy saving car, his son that told the Jewish boy "happy holidays", or Frank his openly gay neighbor?

Tune in on Monday nights 8/7c on Fox.
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Old 04-23-2009, 06:34 PM   #328
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This new season of Fox brings you:

'The Status Quo Rebel'

starring new comer, INDY500.

This aging conservative tries to find his place in 2009 society surrounded by liberal media, liberal government, liberal youth, liberal armchairs, liberal cars, and even liberal churches as he longs for the romanticized Leave it to Beaver days. You thought Archie Bunker was a hoot, wait till you see the zany adventures of this guy as he grumbles his way through an evolving society. How does he deal with his teenage daughter who wants to get an energy saving car, his son that told the Jewish boy "happy holidays", or Frank his openly gay neighbor?

Tune in on Monday nights 8/7c on Fox.
I'm pumped already. Nice to be a lead in to Monday Night Football but don't you think my demo is going to be watching The Factor at 8 pm?

24 episode guarantee, merchandising rights to all catchphrases, a hot TV wife, Real Wild Child by Iggy Pop as the theme song, and one episode featuring an evil twin are all nonnegotiable.

Anyway, have your people get in touch with my people and we'll work out the details.

Ciao
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Old 04-23-2009, 06:57 PM   #329
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:17 PM   #330
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Pilot episode: Water-bored

With Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice found guilty of war crimes and killed weeks ago, Indy grows tired of the televised executions of Bush Administration under-secretaries, attorneys, speech writers and chauffeurs. So he decides to take the family to Disneyland for the day. Only to find out it's Gay Day at the amusement park. "Quick kids, we'll be safe in Frontierland," shouts Indy (as played by Nicolas Cage). Newcomer Carrie Prejean (Miss California) plays Indy's hot TV wife.
Hi-jinx and hilarity are sure to ensue.

Special Guest Star: Sean Penn as Peter Pan
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:32 PM   #331
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:42 PM   #332
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Rock n Roll started out as a noisy rebel out on the fringes of "normal" society too. And what did mainstream acceptance do to it? It killed it. RIP It couldn't be both either as guaranteed sales trumped originality and image became more important than talent. The lyrics in my sig, sadly, now used to market Burger King double-cheeseburgers.

Hollywood and the MSM doesn't share values. TV doesn't cater to me because at 49 I'm outside their demographics. The less said about hip-hop the better. I'm officially non persona in the world of pop culture.
Cool, I'm back to being the rebel. Now where is my Zep 4 album as "it's been a long time since I did the stroll."
This "under 30" just bought Fripp & Eno's "No Pussyfooting" (1973) today. And, frankly, most of the stuff played on the radio has always been weak and commercial, IMO. In fact, since the internet has made the major record labels irrelevant, I'd say, artistically speaking, that music is currently undergoing a silent "Golden Age" again, as there's an amazing amount of stuff being created today that could never have existed even a decade ago, thanks to the internet. But since the record labels would rather have 5 million sales of the latest Britney Spears album than 5 million sales of 5 million different individual records, it's pretty obvious that they yearn for the bloat and inefficiency of the olden days, back when they could invent a band and throw enough marketing dollars at it to get people to listen to what they wanted people to listen to.

In fact, I'd say that that's what's hurt the American automotive industry too. People now know that there are alternatives. And the same goes for homophobia and "under 30s," as we're exposed to an awful lot more than just the prejudiced attitudes of our hometowns. The major music labels, U.S. automakers, and religious conservatives have all thrived on telling people what to do and how to think without question. But now, with the apex of mass communication and information, that old paradigm falls apart.

Good riddance.
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Old 04-24-2009, 09:41 AM   #333
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Pilot episode: Water-bored

With Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice found guilty of war crimes and killed weeks ago, Indy grows tired of the televised executions of Bush Administration under-secretaries, attorneys, speech writers and chauffeurs. So he decides to take the family to Disneyland for the day. Only to find out it's Gay Day at the amusement park. "Quick kids, we'll be safe in Frontierland," shouts Indy (as played by Nicolas Cage). Newcomer Carrie Prejean (Miss California) plays Indy's hot TV wife.
Hi-jinx and hilarity are sure to ensue.

Special Guest Star: Sean Penn as Peter Pan


well played.
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Old 04-24-2009, 09:44 AM   #334
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In fact, I'd say that that's what's hurt the American automotive industry too. People now know that there are alternatives. And the same goes for homophobia and "under 30s," as we're exposed to an awful lot more than just the prejudiced attitudes of our hometowns. The major music labels, U.S. automakers, and religious conservatives have all thrived on telling people what to do and how to think without question. But now, with the apex of mass communication and information, that old paradigm falls apart.


i am ever so slightly over-30, and i can't imagine what my teenage years would have been like had i the internet and even something like Interference (i didn't start reading WIRE until i was in college). i actually envy the teenagers in here because they really do get exposed to different points of view and get a chance to test out their arguments in a way that was unimaginable 15 years ago (well, maybe slightly imaginable, a friend of mine had Prodigy).

i also don't know how i would get my homework done.
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Old 04-24-2009, 11:13 AM   #335
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i also don't know how i would get my homework done.
Don't worry, the teens neither.
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:12 AM   #336
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/wo...celand.html?em

The people of Iceland just elected the first openly lesbian woman to lead a nation. History in the making.

And so time marches forward...
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:36 AM   #337
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/wo...celand.html?em

The people of Iceland just elected the first openly lesbian woman to lead a nation. History in the making.

And so time marches forward...
I think politicians should be judged on policy and actions.
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:40 AM   #338
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/wo...celand.html?em

The people of Iceland just elected the first openly lesbian woman to lead a nation. History in the making.

And so time marches forward...
Yes, but that's Iceland, and thus, just like Canada and most other countries, is irrelevant when it comes to this debate.
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:49 AM   #339
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I think politicians should be judged on policy and actions.
That's kind of the point, isn't it? Why is she the first.
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Ms. Sigurdardottir is notable, too, for being the first openly declared lesbian to lead a government in the modern world, though her sexual orientation was never a significant election issue.
(on a side note, I can't believe their entire population is only 320,000 )
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Old 04-26-2009, 09:26 AM   #340
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I think politicians should be judged on policy and actions.
And the people of Iceland seem to have done just that.
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