Endtimes?

[Johnny Swallow]

Has anyone else done much study on the topic of the endtimes? I've studied Revelations on a few occasions and plenty of books about it. I'm not so much worried about it but I personally find the topic to be fascinating. I have a freind of mine that thinks Juan Carlos of Spain is prime suspect to be the anti-christ. I haven't done as much research into it as he has, but his reasoning behind it is very very interesting, and rather erie.

I don't know, I'm just rambling but does anyone else have a hankering to talk about the end of the world?

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This post brought to you by: Francis Bacon "It is impossible to love and to be wise."

AIM: JuanSwallow

[Johnny Swallow]

*Listens to Chris Cornell's 'Preaching the end of the world'*

[80sU2isBest]

Interesting. In college, I took a course on the book of Revelation. You know what I found out? That no one agrees. One group thinks it's all in the future (the end times), one group thinks the the evnts in the book take place over centuries, a long drawn out process, and a smaller group think that the book was completely allegorical of things that were happening at the time of the writing, in Jerusalem, Rome, and other places. I prefer one of the first two explanations, but I don't know which.

[melon]

Well, if you'd have paid attention, whether it be to Revelation or to more modern phenomena like Marian apparitions, the common theme is that no one will be able to predict it. Everyone from Saladin (10th century Islamic crusader) to Napoleon (19th century French emperor) to Ronald Reagan (20th century U.S. President) have been labelled the "anti-Christ."

An interesting footnote in Marian apparitions (I know these best, because I studied them; hence, why I quote them a lot when dealing with apocalypticism) is that the terms for "the end" are not set in stone. According to them, as late as the 1980s, World War III was supposed to happen, but, according to Mary, the repentance and prayer of mankind has led to the revocation of World War III, so, if this is correct, we will never see it. Also worth noting was that, supposedly, "the end" should already have happened, but that God continues to postpone it out of mercy--but that His patience is waning.

But I've never understood this. Why should Jesus' second coming be a "frightful" event? I almost see this as, perhaps, another throwback to "Pharisee faith," who were awaiting the Messiah to come down as a warrior-conqueror to create a powerful, worldly Kingdom like no other for His "chosen people." Some of the apparition conversations have hinted this to not be so the second time around either, but that it will be a "rebirth" into a Garden of Eden-like paradise and that humanity will continue from there. If this is true, I would love to be able to survive to see all this; to be one of those lucky to see paradise on Earth.

But the key is to realize that it will come when we least suspect it, and that those who claim to know when the end is are wrong, because none of these events are set in stone. God may be infinite in His love, but He's not a monolith when it comes to the semantics of an event.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[speedracer]

Melon, Revelation does mention the following:

-stars falling from the sky (cf. The Fly)
-moon turning blood red (cf. One Tree Hill)
-mountains and islands disappearing (does the World Trade Center count?)
-earthquakes and lightning
-fire from the sky
-sea turning to blood
-swarms of locusts
-darkness
-the armies of the world gathering to do battle at Mt. Meggido (hence the name "Armageddon")

I have no more clue than any other unlicensed theologian how to interpret these images, but I guarantee you that if they actually come to pass, even the Pope will be sh*tting in his pants.

[This message has been edited by speedracer (edited 09-27-2001).]

[melon]

I doubt those will happen literally. Beware of literal interpretations of Revelation too. You don't need to repeat the mistakes of the Pharisees and their restrictive view of Jesus' first coming. His second coming may be what we least suspect...

And Mt. Meggido does not and has never existed. It's a symbol for something else likely.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[This message has been edited by melon (edited 09-27-2001).]

[DebbieSG]

There is a book called Peace, Prosperity and the Coming Holocaust by Dave Hunt which claims to find many modern portents of the end times. I don't have it with me now, so I can't site it specifically, but it argues we are very close. The author talks about chaos in the world, which leads to a world-wide peace movement and submission to a world leader to control things, as is related in Revelations.

There are modern developments like putting computer chips in people which resemble the idea that the anti-christ will control buying and selling.

But really, I agree with Melon, we aren't supposed to know when it is to come, we are just supposed to be ever watchful, meaning continuing in faith.

[U2Bama]

Originally posted by melon:
His second coming may be what we least suspect...

"...like a thief in the night."

[speedracer]

Originally posted by melon:
I doubt those will happen literally. Beware of literal interpretations of Revelation too. You don't need to repeat the mistakes of the Pharisees and their restrictive view of Jesus' first coming. His second coming may be what we least suspect...

And Mt. Meggido does not and has never existed. It's a symbol for something else likely.

Melon

Ok.

But it's not just the idea of massive natural disasters and wars that is frightening; the Final Judgment will happen (with or without the eternal fire and brimstone), and how many of us are 100% confident that we'll pass? (And I do mean 100 percent, not 100 minus epsilon percent.)

[melon]

Well, similar in vein, what happens to those who are already dead? Have they not been judged already? Or do they, even in death, have another chance for redemption before the Last Judgment? Or is the Last Judgment only for those who are living at the time; hence, everyone will have "died"?

I don't know. It is stated that the faithful should not fear the "end." I try and be faithful, but is faith enough? Does God judge on semantical ideas outside of the idea of faith and love? I mean, the ideas of "faith and love" differ between Christian sects even in how they are attained. Will God smote those sects who happen to be wrong?

Apparently, if the apparitions are correct, we are to be forewarned three days before they happen by a Medjugorje priest, who will state the time and place the first "three warnings" will occur. "Those who survive" will witness a permanent supernatural phenomenon that will be left upon a mountain there.

Curious and scary indeed....

Speaking of which, this is apparently the latest message from Mary from Medjugorje:

Message of September 25, 2001: "Dear children! Also today I call you to prayer, especially today when Satan wants war and hatred. I call you anew, little children: pray and fast that God may give you peace. Witness peace to every heart and be carriers of peace in this world without peace. I am with you and intercede before God for each of you. And you do not be afraid because the one who prays is not afraid of evil and has no hatred in the heart. Thank you for having responded to my call."

I know this comes from a Catholic perspective, and not all of you are Catholic, but, for argument's sake, let's say that you all believe it. Knowing this is true, do you think that participating and/or supporting this war would jeopardize your "Last Judgment"? More conundrums I love to dig up.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[This message has been edited by melon (edited 09-27-2001).]

[DebbieSG]

Originally posted by speedracer:
and how many of us are 100% confident that we'll pass? (And I do mean 100 percent, not 100 minus epsilon percent.)

Anyone who is a follower of Jesus Christ will be saved from the final judgement. ("He who believes in Him is not condemned...John 3:18) Christians are saved and have eternal life in Christ from the moment they believe. Doesn't matter when they die, Christians have a new life with the resurrected Christ, who is alive in the Heavens and will return.

I don't think it matters what sect you are in, but that you are indeed following the word of God in your heart (in other words accepted Christ in your life.)

[melon]

DebbieSG,

I do tend to agree, but I wonder if there are any limits to that.

Ivan the Terrible, for instance, was an insanely devout Russian Orthodox Christian, but also slaughtered mass amounts of people. He was so crazy that he ordered state funerals through the Orthodox Church for all the people he executed.

Would Ivan the Terrible have gone to heaven then, because he had faith, or would his bad actions somehow negate his salvation? I know the Catholic answer to this. I'm curious what the Protestant answer would be.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[This message has been edited by melon (edited 09-27-2001).]

[speedracer]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Interesting. In college, I took a course on the book of Revelation. You know what I found out? That no one agrees. One group thinks it's all in the future (the end times), one group thinks the the evnts in the book take place over centuries, a long drawn out process, and a smaller group think that the book was completely allegorical of things that were happening at the time of the writing, in Jerusalem, Rome, and other places. I prefer one of the first two explanations, but I don't know which.

Well, according to prophecies culled from the Gospels, Revelation and some of the Old Testament books, the end times will be marked by wars, false prophets, famine and pestilence. Those conditions don't exactly pin down an exact date.

[majxtc]

There is a book called Peace, Prosperity and the Coming Holocaust by Dave Hunt which claims to find many modern portents of the end times. The author talks about chaos in the world, which leads to a world-wide peace movement and submission to a world leader to control things, as is related in Revelations.

There are modern developments like putting computer chips in people which resemble the idea that the anti-christ will control buying and selling.

DebbieSG,
I grew up in religious circles that were alway speculating about the end time in relation to current events like this Dave Hunt book seems to do. I like what melon' said about how 'everyone from Saladin (10th century Islamic crusader) to Napoleon (19th century French emperor) to Ronald Reagan (20th century U.S. President) have been labelled the "anti-Christ."

Recently, I was talking and joking with my brother and some of his friends. One of them asks if any of us thinks that Osama Bin Ladin is the Anti-Christ and my brother replied "It's hard to say, I've changed anti-christs more often than I've changed underwear."

I agree with you, that it is difficult to know what to think of all this, but it is truly more important that we continue on in faith.

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And love is not the easy thing... The only baggage you can bring... Is all that you can't leave behind.

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by melon:
DebbieSG,
Ivan the Terrible, for instance, was an insanely devout Russian Orthodox Christian, but also slaughtered mass amounts of people. He was so crazy that he ordered state funerals through the Orthodox Church for all the people he executed.Would Ivan the Terrible have gone to heaven then, because he had faith, or would his bad actions somehow negate his salvation? I know the Catholic answer to this. I'm curious what the Protestant answer would be.

He may have claimed to be a Christian, but that doesn't necessarily make him one. Only the Lord knows if a person is truly a Christian. Yes, being a Christian is simply a matter of believing. But not believing as in saying "I believe that Christ died for our sins. There, now I can carry on with my life as I see fit". Nope, the belief the Bible speaks about is a belief that goes deep that colors what you do and makes you sing praises to The Father and seek his will. The Word says that good works are not necessary to get you to Heaven, but it does make clear that if you are a Christian, the fruit will show, and that works are a natural production of being a believer. Did Ivan the Terrible really have Christ in his heart? Only God truly knows. But his fruit didn't show it. "They'll know we are Christians by our love".

[U2Bama]

(Jesus speaking): "You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. � For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows" (Matthew 24:6-8).

I don't see that as some type of Apocalyptic prophecy as it came from the Gospel of Matthew as opposed to Revelation; moreover, I see it as His statement of what will occur throughout time, perhaps leading up to the speculative "endtimes."

~U2Alabama

[This message has been edited by U2Bama (edited 09-28-2001).]

[melon]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
He may have claimed to be a Christian, but that doesn't necessarily make him one. Only the Lord knows if a person is truly a Christian. Yes, being a Christian is simply a matter of believing. But not believing as in saying "I believe that Christ died for our sins. There, now I can carry on with my life as I see fit". Nope, the belief the Bible speaks about is a belief that goes deep that colors what you do and makes you sing praises to The Father and seek his will. The Word says that good works are not necessary to get you to Heaven, but it does make clear that if you are a Christian, the fruit will show, and that works are a natural production of being a believer. Did Ivan the Terrible really have Christ in his heart? Only God truly knows. But his fruit didn't show it. "They'll know we are Christians by our love".

Thanks. I had suspected this, as this was the approach Martin Luther took to the whole question of "faith vs. good works"; that it was only faith that saved, but that good works will naturally come out of faith. I didn't know if this somehow was different in other ideologies within Protestantism.

But it's truly a toss up in the Bible regarding faith vs. good works. The epistle of James mentions that "faith without good works is dead" (James 2:14-26), which is likely the basis for the necessity of faith and good works for salvation in Catholicism.

However, getting back to Martin Luther, his main reason for saying that faith was the only means for salvation was due to stunts like "indulgences," where you could buy your way into Heaven. Hence, you were doing a "good work" by handing money over to the Church. With this perspective, I think that everyone would agree with Martin Luther; but I would counterargue that such things as buying indulgences were simply not good works to begin with. It would be like saying that Ivan the Terrible's compulsory church funerals for those he executed were good works to negate his bad ones. Rather, I would say that they were "selfish works."

However, this looks nearly like a semantical idea nowadays. Faith and good works for salvation, versus faith for salvation with good works being an expression of true faith.

This is perhaps the most civil religious discussion I've ever had!

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[melon]

Originally posted by U2Bama:
(Jesus speaking): "You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. � For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows" (Matthew 24:6-8).

I don't see that as some type of Apocalyptic prophecy as it came from the Gospel of Matthew as opposed to Revelation; moreover, I see it as His statement of what will occur throughout time, perhaps leading up to the speculative "endtimes."

I agree. All of this stuff has occurred before, during, and after Jesus. It doesn't take a prophet to know this is true.

--Nations and kingdoms constantly were fighting then, more so than even now. The stakes are just higher now, with weapons of mass destruction.

--Famines, pestilences, and earthquakes are all, unfortunately, common occurrances. This was particularly an issue with the Mediterranean, as it really is a mesh of many climates, with the lushness of Europe and the dryness of the deserts in North Africa. There are some major fault lines over there, but earthquakes aren't as common as volcanoes. "Pestilences" are also a cycle of nature, which they didn't understand back then. America's latest "pestilence" was the Japanese lady bug, and boy did they come out in droves last year, but it appears that they have waned as they are settling in.

None of this stuff is new, and, I think of it more as an analogy to the bad that will happen in the world before "the end."

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[DebbieSG]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:The Word says that good works are not necessary to get you to Heaven, but it does make clear that if you are a Christian, the fruit will show, and that works are a natural production of being a believer. Did Ivan the Terrible really have Christ in his heart? Only God truly knows. But his fruit didn't show it. "They'll know we are Christians by our love".

Yes! Love God, love your neighbor as yourself!