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Old 01-18-2002, 08:29 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Miss MacPhisto:
Well, people have used the bible to condone many cruel practises: slavery, mistreatment of women and children, cruelty torwards homosexuals,etc.
But you cant place yourself above all others and go ona bout how its not ok to eat humans, but its perfectly ok to eat a dog.

As for other forms of cruelty torwards dogs and cats,such as overpopulation, no one in their right mind would allow that either.

I never said it was "perfectly OK" to eat a dog. I just said that I cannot, in good concious, tell anyone not to do so, for I feel it would be hypocritical.

India provides a great example of a society where eating beef is HUGE "no-no." Yet, in our Western society, we have commercials advertising beef. Likewise, some societies consider eating a chicken egg grotesque, yet we eat those too. Would you want someone scolding your diet because of their religious beliefs? You state that some animals simply weren't meant for eating - yet this is how 1 billion people feel about cows. Has that stopped you from ever eating beef? This is why I say that I cannot criticize one person for his/her diet choices when I could very well be criticized for mine.

You also state that "no one in their right mind" would be cruel to animals, yet here in the U.S., we kill hundreds of thousands of dogs and cats every year because of overpopulation. We think nothing of this. These are lives just going to waste. Yet people scream when someone suggests using these animals for food or research. This contradiction is illogical.

If we lived in a utopia, yes, animal cruelty of any form would not exist. But let's get back to reality. Cruelty does exist. Dog and cat overpopulation exits. People often abandon their pets, thinking they'll "survive in the wild" even though these animals are so domesticated, they no longer know how to hunt. This is reality. To say that it's wrong to eat a dog or use one for research but then ignore the cruelty that exists all around you is naive.

I'm not saying I support dining on "rump of dog" or "leg of cat" for dinner. I too would be apalled by this. But it's easier for me to accept an animal being used for food or research than to see it being neglected and beaten on the street.

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Old 01-19-2002, 03:14 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Miss MacPhisto:
Dogs,cats, and horses(among others) are not, and never have been "food animals" (yes i abhore that term)to any people except freaks who'll eat anything that moves.
I'm not someone who will eat anything that moves, but like I said, I have eaten horse, so I must be a freak. And what do you want to be when you grow up, Miss MacPhisto?

On a more positive note, adam's_mistress, that was a very good post indeed! In fact, I myself feel guilty on my country's behalf for having introduced oranges etc. to the people of Greenland, messing up their systems over the course of a few generations and thus making them reliant on us where they used to be completely self-sufficient.

[This message has been edited by Klodomir (edited 01-19-2002).]
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Old 01-19-2002, 11:19 AM   #43
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Originally posted by Miss MacPhisto:
If it is merely a cultural thing, then why, pray tell, can one not eat humans? Can we go around and slaughter each other and put our neighbors on the table??/I mean, hey, if its "part of my culture" then i must be allowed to do whatever i want, 'eh?? And yes, some cultures DO eat humans.
I personally wouldnt eat my neighbors, because they are disgusting sick people, but hey, i cant speak for everyone... RIIIIIGHT? Legalize cannibalism!! Solve the overpopulation problem at long last!

[/B]
I haven't seen this argument in this discussion before and I don't know all the ins and outs of it, but there is a valid reason against canibalism. Biologically, it's unwise to eat one's own species. Often, when there is a new or mass disease among animals raised for consumption (often in terrible conditions) one of the reasons there is this disease is because the animals were given food made of their own species. The meat industry isn't that ethical and many animals are treated horrendously. By eating one's own species, initial defects/irregularities/diseases in the eaten body can seriously influence the bodies of those practising cannibalism.
This is also apparent in the animal kingdom. There are many carnivores, but none of those carnivores eat their own species. Well, maybe some races do, but they are known to have many animals with defects caused by the cannibalism.
Not eating humans is therefore not only a cultural thing, it's also a biological necessity to ensure the survival of the human race.

And as for thinking it's immoral to eat cats, dogs and horses that are raised as pets; I don't know the exact conditions in the countries that eat those animals, but I think they are not raised as pets, but as cattle meant for consumption. So there would be no difference between cows and dogs in those countries.

C ya!

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Old 01-19-2002, 02:59 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klodomir:


On a more positive note, adam's_mistress, that was a very good post indeed! In fact, I myself feel guilty on my country's behalf for having introduced oranges etc. to the people of Greenland, messing up their systems over the course of a few generations and thus making them reliant on us where they used to be completely self-sufficient.

[This message has been edited by Klodomir (edited 01-19-2002).]
Not to be contradictory, but I believe a lot of Icelanders, mainly children in past times were suffering as a result of too much meat in their diet. As you know, the region of Iceland is so harsh that it's near impossible to grow fruits and veggies, so naturally people began suffering from various health conditions as a result of not getting enough balance in their meals. The lack of essential vitamins and minerals from plants caused a series of health issues that couldn't be overlooked: from learning disabilities to fetal growth. A lot of this information has been countered by Icelandic officials in recent times since it was believed that the breeding waters for fish in that region were polluted with mercury, but there was a slightly publicized report on the plight of the Icelander's diet... what was it? I think around 15 or 16 years ago I saw something about this on a program called 60 Minutes but my brain is foggy so memory might not be serving me right.

Anyway, more fruits and vegetables were introduced into the diet to help curb some of the health disorders from people consuming way too much meat in their diet. To do this Iceland had to heavily rely on other countries getting fruits and vegetables to them as they were unable to produce those items in the harsh Icelandic climate. I don't think this is entirely a bad thing, especially since growing children ought to have a balanced diet that consists of something more than meat and fish. Also, for your country in particular, oranges bring in money from the exporting of these products - it brings in money for your country although that alone could bring it's own sets of problems especially if they demand an outrageous price for oranges. Also as you pointed out, the introduction of certain kinds of foods made these people somewhat dependant on foods not normally found in those regions. I guess it's a double edged sword here.

The good news for the people of Iceland is that since those times they have become very keen about their diet. The country as a whole makes a strong effort not to add preservatives or dyes to their food - and with food trade, it is now possile for Icelanders to not only enjoy a more balanced diet for their children but actually enjoy different kinds of foods they might not have been able to get otherwise.

*sigh* What did I just say?

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Old 01-19-2002, 07:00 PM   #45
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Originally posted by doctorwho:

Has that stopped you from ever eating beef? You also state that "no one in their right mind" would be cruel to animals, yet here in the U.S., we kill hundreds of thousands of dogs and cats every year because of overpopulation. We think nothing of this.
Um, YES.
I havent eaten beef in eons. And i dont intend to start anytime soon, either.
And no, WE dont kill millions of dogs and cats every year. Nazis at pounds do. I myself have never intentionally killed an animal for any reason whatsoever. And i most certainly do not "think nothing of this". I've saved many an animal, and tricked many a fool over at the city pounds.
And i dont consider anyone who would murder a non-terminally ill animal to be of sound mind. Thats what I meant.

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[This message has been edited by Miss MacPhisto (edited 01-19-2002).]
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Old 01-19-2002, 07:08 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klodomir:
I'm not someone who will eat anything that moves, but like I said, I have eaten horse, so I must be a freak. [This message has been edited by Klodomir (edited 01-19-2002).]
Yes, you must have a geranium in the cranium if you actually felt it necessary to eat a horse



[This message has been edited by Miss MacPhisto (edited 01-19-2002).]
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Old 01-19-2002, 07:30 PM   #47
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And I dont know much about the history of cows and chickens, but I DO know they were NOT created as companions for mankind, and they arent carnivores, and that, among other things, makes it much worse to eat dogs and cats as opposed to chickens and turkeys,etc.
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Old 01-19-2002, 08:31 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Miss MacPhisto:
And I dont know much about the history of cows and chickens, but I DO know they were NOT created as companions for mankind, and they arent carnivores, and that, among other things, makes it much worse to eat dogs and cats as opposed to chickens and turkeys,etc.

Chickens, like most birds, eat insects; that could be construed as meat.

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Old 01-20-2002, 03:20 AM   #49
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Horse meat is not uncommon in places I've visited in Europe. France and Switzerland to name a few. They're "freaks" now?
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Old 01-20-2002, 05:09 PM   #50
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Miss MacPhisto,
I probably should leave this thread alone and let it go away, but I wanted you to know (should you ever read this again) that if you ever again use a thread to insult other people with lines such as "Yes, you must have a geranium in the cranium" and other shit you have been posting in here instead of discussing things with them that yu don't agree on I will ask Elvis to ban your account

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Old 01-20-2002, 05:18 PM   #51
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Oh, so its perfectly alright if they insult me, eh????????
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Old 01-20-2002, 05:21 PM   #52
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IF YOU CANT STAND THE HEAT, GET OUT OF THE KITCHEN
And yes, please do leave this thread alone.
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Old 01-20-2002, 05:26 PM   #53
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SHE ASKED FOR MY OPINION, AND I GAVE IT. ACTUALLY SHE ASKED IF I THOUGHT SHE WAS A FREAK. WOULD YOU PREFER I HAD SAID "YES, YOU ARE?" ???????????? WELL I DIDNT, BUT ONLY BECAUSE I THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE TOO CRUEL IN THIS CASE. I THOUGHT WHAT I DID SAY WOULD SOUND SILLY AND LAUGHABLE,AND IF SOMEONE HAD SAID THAT TO ME, AFTER I HAD ASKED THEIR OPINION, I WOULD MERELY ROLL MY EYES AND THINK UP A SMART ASS REPLY BACK AT THEM.
ONCE AGAIN, IF SOMEONE ASKS FOR MY OPINION, I WILL NOT HESITATE TO GIVE IT.
I FIGURED WHAT I SAID WAS ******MUCH****** LESS INSULTING THAN ACTUALLY REPLYING, "YES,YOU ARE A FREAK" .
I DID NOT INSULT HER FIRST. I DID NOT USE THIS THREAD TO INSULT HER. YOU ARE PARANOID IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE. THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT I WAS ORIGINALLY INTENTIONALLY INSULTING WERE ANY SOUTH KOREANS, OR OTHERS, THAT EAT DOGS AND CATS. THOSE WERE THE ONES I WAS AIMING AT. DONT TWIST THIS INTO ANYTHING ELSE.
ONCE AGAIN, IF SHE DID NOT ASK FOR MY OPINION, I WOULD NOT HAVE GIVEN IT. IS THAT CLEAR NOW?????????????????
What exactly was i supposed to do, ignore her question? Or lie? If someone goes around eating horses when they do not have to, yes, i do believe there is something wrong there. If you dont like that, do NOT ask me what I think.

[This message has been edited by Miss MacPhisto (edited 01-20-2002).]
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Old 01-20-2002, 08:17 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Miss MacPhisto:
SHE ASKED FOR MY OPINION, AND I GAVE IT. ACTUALLY SHE ASKED IF I THOUGHT SHE WAS A FREAK. WOULD YOU PREFER I HAD SAID "YES, YOU ARE?" ???????????? WELL I DIDNT, BUT ONLY BECAUSE I THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE TOO CRUEL IN THIS CASE. I THOUGHT WHAT I DID SAY WOULD SOUND SILLY AND LAUGHABLE,AND IF SOMEONE HAD SAID THAT TO ME, AFTER I HAD ASKED THEIR OPINION, I WOULD MERELY ROLL MY EYES AND THINK UP A SMART ASS REPLY BACK AT THEM.
ONCE AGAIN, IF SOMEONE ASKS FOR MY OPINION, I WILL NOT HESITATE TO GIVE IT.
I FIGURED WHAT I SAID WAS ******MUCH****** LESS INSULTING THAN ACTUALLY REPLYING, "YES,YOU ARE A FREAK" .
I DID NOT INSULT HER FIRST. I DID NOT USE THIS THREAD TO INSULT HER. YOU ARE PARANOID IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE. THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT I WAS ORIGINALLY INTENTIONALLY INSULTING WERE ANY SOUTH KOREANS, OR OTHERS, THAT EAT DOGS AND CATS. THOSE WERE THE ONES I WAS AIMING AT. DONT TWIST THIS INTO ANYTHING ELSE.
ONCE AGAIN, IF SHE DID NOT ASK FOR MY OPINION, I WOULD NOT HAVE GIVEN IT. IS THAT CLEAR NOW?????????????????
Aha. Anyhow, I don't recall anybody insulting you, Miss MacPhisto, if anything I think nearly everybody was trying to be diplomatic. By the way, do you realise that including South Koreans (or North Koreans for that matter), Chinese, Indonesians etc. there are quite a few millions who DO eat cats and dogs? I guess they're all freaks because you decree it.

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Old 01-20-2002, 11:23 PM   #55
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Sorry, I didn't mean for this thread to get out of hand. I think Miss Macphisto has a big heart toward animals and so this fuels her passionate outbursts in her posts. While the other folks here just want to look at the intellectual side of the issue. There's no one to blame, it's just two diametrically opposed stands.


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Old 01-20-2002, 11:45 PM   #56
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Sorry, I didn't mean for this thread to get out of hand. I think Miss Macphisto has a big heart toward animals and so this fuels her passionate outbursts in her posts. While the other folks here just want to look at the intellectual side of the issue. There's no one to blame, it's just two diametrically opposed stands.


foray
I agree completely with you foray - and I agree totally with Miss MacPhisto's views. I too think it is barbaric that dogs and cats are killed senselessly due to overpopulation. I too would never eat one. And even though I am a scientist, I have worked hard to NOT kill animals directly because of my research.

However, I also feel that Miss MacPhisto is taking my comments, as well as others, far too personally. She says that she doesn't take these issues lightly. And who said that she ever did? Certainly not me.

Rather, I was using the term "we" not as an indication of Miss MacPhisto's views and actions, but that of our entire society. While Miss MacPhisto may find it appalling, the fact is, hundreds of thousands of animals are slaughtered each year in the U.S. due to overpopulation and neglect. We have to do more than just say how appalling this is - we have to take action. If you can't care for a pet, DO NOT GET ONE! A pet is not a toy that you can put on a shelf when you grow tired of it. For most dogs and cats, this is a 10 to 20 year commitment, if not more. If you can't make that commitment, DO NOT GET A PET! If you do get a pet, have it vaccinated - yearly. Neuter your pet. Don't worry, it doesn't hurt and it often makes your pet far more controlable. Love it, give it attention. And if, for some God-forsaken reason, you must give up your pet, don't just toss it out into the wild, thinking it will survive. These animals have become overly domesticated - they won't survive in the wild.

So while I agree with Miss MacPhisto and I have the same huge heart for animals, the fact is cruelty is all around us. To simply say, "Well, it's barbaric" is not the answer. There are things we can do - including opening our own minds to other possibilities and cultures. If these beautiful creatures MUST be killed, far better for them to serve as food or HUMANE research animals, so that their lives had meaning. At least give these animals that dignity - don't just snobbishly state how anyone who dares to eat horse is a "freak."
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Old 01-21-2002, 01:02 AM   #57
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Miss Macphisto,
You are not alone!!Dogs and cats and pigs for that matter are special and Holy animals. Cows would probably be extinct if it were not for human intervention. Dogs and cats would certainly survive. Dogs and cats and other domestic animals are truly loving. I think all animals are beautiful but to eat domesticaterd animals is inhumane, thoughtless, and cold. Most people do not want to pay attention to such acts because it hurts to much to think about.

As a country, we are constructively trying control our animal overpopulation. Maybe we are not there yet...but one day we will be a lot closer and in the meantime it is not right to eat them. My God, domesticated animals...should be deemed sacred.

I know how exasperating it is to argue an issue that is so close to your heart. But one always has to speak out for injustices.
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Old 01-21-2002, 01:57 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Miss MacPhisto:
What exactly was i supposed to do, ignore her question? Or lie? If someone goes around eating horses when they do not have to, yes, i do believe there is something wrong there. If you dont like that, do NOT ask me what I think.
I only quoted one sentence of the vile, insulting stuff you've been spewing around in this thread

I don't care about the current topic, I don't care how passionate you are re this topic, I don't think it's normal to talk this way to other people (I won't call it discussing)


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[This message has been edited by Salome (edited 01-20-2002).]
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Old 01-21-2002, 06:58 AM   #59
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Oh, I'm alright, and since we have had this discussion before, I knew that I would be at the receiving end of quite some venom. It doesn't hurt me. I certainly don't doubt Miss MacPhisto's love for animals, it's just a shame that she is such a hothead, because she's not going to win anyone over with that attitude.
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Old 01-22-2002, 09:03 AM   #60
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Can I ask, What are we supposed to do with the over-population of dogs?
I mean, they do cost money for up-keep, and I doubht the dog pounds can afford to keep them.
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