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Old 05-07-2002, 04:26 PM   #21
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While Im of course saddened at the death of a figurehead in the world of politics, especially with elections coming up, etc. It doesnt expressly affect me, living in canada and such, but its just (from a historical sense) interesting to see an assassination occur as such. Sad. Morbidly intruiging. But sad.
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Old 05-07-2002, 04:59 PM   #22
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Popmartijn;

You are right ofcourse, for some bizarre reason my mind was at a completely different tangent, so when I used the word 'emancipation' I thought I was using another word altogether. The opposite in meaning, in fact. But yes, I grant you it was a contradiction and a typo.

However, I still stand by what I said, and not only do I think that Mr. Fortuyn's views were wrong and hostile, but destructive.

And as for democracy and equal rights, I understand how it can shock a country like the Netherlands, but no one is ever as democratic as they may think. And there is no such thing as equal human rights, in my cynical opinion.

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Old 05-07-2002, 05:32 PM   #23
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This is a horrible thing that happened to Mr. Fortuyn.

I read about it in this mornings paper. I am a little confused about your right wing party, considering he was openly gay. I don't mention this with any jest, please understand. I guess I'm just ignorant of your politics. Over here, that would be almost an oxymoron.

Once again, this is an unnecessarily terrible tragedy.
RIP Mr. Fortuyn
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Old 05-07-2002, 07:35 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by z edge:
I am a little confused about your right wing party, considering he was openly gay. I don't mention this with any jest, please understand. I guess I'm just ignorant of your politics. Over here, that would be almost an oxymoron.

Once again, this is an unnecessarily terrible tragedy.
RIP Mr. Fortuyn
You bring up an interesting point here, Mr. Z Edge.

With the risk of me being labelled "intolerant" or biggoted or whatever, allow me to theorize on the late Mr. Fortuyn's statement on Islamic culture.

Being that he has always been known for being (1) openly homosexual and (2) vocal about his political opinions, could it be that intolerance of homosexuality and political dissent in certain "Islamic cultures" led Mr. Fortuyn to consider those cultures to be "backward"?

Face it, people: since the 1979 "Islamic Revolution," Iran has executed 4,000 homosexuals for the sin/civil crime of being homosexual. And those champions of tolerance in Afghanistan, the Taliban, carried out at least 10 PUBLIC executions of homosexuals during their reign of tolerance and cultural diversity. I certainly can't see a homosexual European politician such as Mr. Fortuyn calling such culures "progressive and forward-thinking." (Personally, I also have a problem with the theocracy that exists in several Islamic cultures). And since Muslim immigrants are a minority culture in the Netherlands, Mr. Fortuyn comes across as a "right-winger" intolerant of immigrants.

Granted, his statement generalized and therefore was not diplomatic. But it sure didn't warrant his death.

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Old 05-07-2002, 07:44 PM   #25
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Z_edge and U2Bama;

From what I remember from an interview with Fortuyn, this is what he said;
Reporter: So you think they are backward?
Fortuyn: Of course the Islamic culture is backward! How can you call depriving the rights of women forward? If such an Islamic culture ruled a country, people like me wouldn't be allowed to exist, if that isn't backward... what is it?

I don't think its a secret that he was very much anti-Islam because of his homosexuality, that had a lot to do with it. However, I don't think its surpising that a gay man can be right-wing, there are plenty of openly gay right-wingers in Europe, and there have been many in the past. Hating to point the obvious, but homosexuality is not a political orientation.

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Old 05-07-2002, 08:00 PM   #26
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Anthony:

Of course homosexuality is not a political orientation, but can't you see, in the very things you said, that the intolerance and persecution of homosexuals in certain Islamic cultures would lead Mr. Fortuyn to consider them to be "backward"?

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Old 05-07-2002, 09:38 PM   #27
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Maybe I misread something, but I thought he wasn't even considered a viable candidate. Or that he didn't have a very good chance of winning? If so, why would they kill him?

As far as sexual orientation and party lines, I realize how we are different here than in Europe. Though I do not know what the highest public office an openly homosexual candidate has run for here, I bet it was with not with the Republican party.

On an interesting note regarding Muslims, I was told some very strange things from a British doctor in "a Muslim country". He told me of the "oddities" he experienced while performing physical exams. He said that it was every "_____'s" goal to be a man, and that (to them) women were second class, only for producing and raising sons (not daughters). Also, he said that little girls wanted to be boys so bad that they would sometimes believe they were boys, and come to him to try and enter their air force thinking they were men. And finally, he mentioned that a majority of the men practiced homosexuality amongst themselves.

I have alwasy wondered about this, and it is funny the same religion would condemn their own actions when performed by others. Not to mention, sentence to death, committ murder, etc.
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Old 05-08-2002, 02:18 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama:
Being that he has always been known for being (1) openly homosexual and (2) vocal about his political opinions, could it be that intolerance of homosexuality and political dissent in certain "Islamic cultures" led Mr. Fortuyn to consider those cultures to be "backward"?
Bama, I think this was also (a big part of) the case. IIRC, Fortuyn's statement came shortly after an imam (what I understand he is some kind of Islamic priest) said that gays were even lower than pigs (or something of that kind), coupled with increasingly intolerant behaviour by (many) young Muslims against homosexuals (harassing them in the streets, etc.) and it might be a reason for his (initial) statement.

As for him to be considered right wing, that is a difficult question. Many of his ideas cut through all the political boundaries. He had ideas that were on the left side of the spectrum and that were on the right side. But he got brandished right wing because of some of his ideas regarding immigration (he wanted to restrict it so that the country could absorb the massive current inflow first and that later on the persons who did get asylum in the Netherlands would have a fair chance to live in reasonable circumstances). As the elections are looming many politicians only took the 'no immigrants' part from his statement to put Fortuyn down as a right wing politician you did not want to vote for.
The (foreign) media quickly picked up on this, hence the reports everywhere as Fortuyn being the Dutch Le Pen (or Haider, etc.). To illustrate, I can now give the case of Anthony here. He made a negative statement about the Islam, so it's quite easy for me now to call him a racist. If others also start calling him that (because they want him out, or they want more attention to themselves) he can quickly be brandished as a racist, without many knowing the exact reason why.

(BIG DISCLAIMER! I do not think Anthony is racist or whatsoever. I only referenced to his original, and incorrect, statement for illustration purposes!)

Anyway, the elections next week will be very strange as Fortuyn will be gone but his party still exists. The elections were going to be inpredictable, but now even more so.

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Old 05-08-2002, 02:24 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by z edge:
Maybe I misread something, but I thought he wasn't even considered a viable candidate. Or that he didn't have a very good chance of winning? If so, why would they kill him?
His party would maybe become the third biggest party in the Netherlands. I even heard that the latest polls before his dead even predicted that he could become the biggest. In short, he was considered a very viable candidate.

As for the question, why would they kill him? I don't know yet. The murderer was apparently working for an extreme environmental group. But he has not made a statement yet to the police, so no-one knows his motives (although rumours suggest it might be because Fortuyn was not against the use of fur and apparently wanted to abolish the restriction that animals could not be breeded for their fur, but these are rumours).

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Old 05-08-2002, 11:57 AM   #30
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Marty or Salome,

Is it true that the maximum sentence for a convicted murderer in the Netherlands is 20 years? That's what I'm reading on the BBC website now.
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Old 05-08-2002, 12:03 PM   #31
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Yes, that's 20 years imprisonment (sitting in jail). After that they are usually under the supervision of psychiatrists etc.
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Old 05-08-2002, 01:21 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Popmartijn:
(BIG DISCLAIMER! I do not think Anthony is racist or whatsoever. I only referenced to his original, and incorrect, statement for illustration purposes!)
Uh, yeah. But the difference being that I did that by accident, as in.. I didnt mean my negative comments, but Mr. Fortuyn DID.

There's a crucial difference.

And yes, U2Bama, I do realise that. However, just because he's homosexual doesnt mean he can slag off the Islamic culture. And besides, he was quilty of a sweeping statement, not ALL Islamic cultures view homosexuality in the same way. I didn't see him accusing Catholicism of being 'backward'.

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Old 05-10-2002, 12:28 AM   #33
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Originally posted by DrTeeth:
Once again,
Pim Fortuyn called the Islamic culture backward for their stance on emancipation, freedom of speech/press and religion etc. I tend to agree with this although I wouldn't have voted for him.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Islamic culture is backward? Thats funny, the Islamic culture I was brought up with promoted peace, equal rights, and respect towards one another.
Hmmmmmmmmm........ Maybe certain people in general need to watch out on how they name Islam, especially if they haven't studied the religion.
A nation (country) and religion are two different things. They should be identified
sepereately. I agree with Anthony, this guy made a mistake, and it sadly cost his life....
But, we live in a chaotic world. If one is going to make such an ignorent statement, then he has to prepare for the worst. Calling a major religion backwards is a real big mistake, because it is a threat towards the majority of respectful Muslims in this world. What if he said that Christianity was backwards, and that they had to limit the immigration of Christian people? That would surely drive people mad.
He shouldn't have been killed... But, making some of the remarks that he did, He should have seen TROUBLE coming.
Peace out,
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Old 05-10-2002, 04:51 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amna:
He shouldn't have been killed... But, making some of the remarks that he did, He should have seen TROUBLE coming.
how is that?
if someone would call me a stupid, ignorant twit who shouldn't have the right to breath I wouldn't go hunting them down with a gun



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Old 05-13-2002, 08:21 PM   #35
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Most people outside of the Netherlands had never heard of him before he was killed... and in a few weeks most people will have forgotten about him.

I don't agree at all with what he said but that doesn't mean I like seeing him shot. There have always been people like that in politics.
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