Dog Fighting

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

Originally posted by Angela Harlem


You're sadly very misinformed, toscano. You're underestimating what cruelty to animals is, what that cruelty can lead to, and what it represents about the mind of the person who does this and acts of savagery like it. If you think for even one minute that cruelty to animals, while sad, is not a red flag for immediate alarm, then you need to wise up very fast.

I also disagree with him being supervised while learning about caring for animals is a suitable fix. This cruelty to animals isn't really about a dislike or even hatred of dogs. It's a perversion with satisfying bloodlust, control, the enjoyment of being witness to pain, to being the controller of pain, domination, etc, etc.

I agree with every word of this post.

[Diemen]

Personally I find that last "etc" unnecessary.

But everything else is spot on.

[MrsSpringsteen]

ATLANTA -- The interim president of the NAACP said Thursday that the national chapter of the civil rights organization will not take a stance on the Michael Vick dogfighting charges.

But Dennis Courtland Hayes said he does not personally consider the Atlanta Falcons quarterback a victim.

Hayes is the interim president and chief executive officer of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Asked about his personal opinion, Hayes told NBC's "Today" show, "Let me be clear: the NAACP does not condone dogfighting. This is a situation involving Mike Vick. I understand he has admitted wrongdoing.

"Michael Vick is not a victim in this situation; he was in control of his actions, and he is not a victim."

Hayes made the statements a day after the head of the Atlanta Chapter of the NAACP said the quarterback should be allowed to return to football after he serves his sentence for his role in a dogfighting operation.

Atlanta Chapter President R.L. White said Wednesday Vick is a human being who has learned from his mistake and should be allowed to prove he has learned from that mistake.

Hayes declined to say whether Vick should be allowed to return to professional football, saying that is an issue to be decided after he talks to the court and to his employer. But Hayes added, "He will have to be accountable for his actions."

Asked whether the amount of public support has been different because Vick is black, Hayes told NBC, "What we have to understand is what we're hearing expressed by some African-Americans is their anger and hurt, distrust in a criminal justice system that they feel treats them like animals."

[CTU2fan]

Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
Some athletes seem to practice that sort of code about defending each other like some police do. That's a pathetic statement, he should be ashamed. His ignorance regarding animal abuse is bad enough, but trying to make Vick some sort of victim is inexcusable.

Making Vick a victim in that way is similar to what some of the athletes and public say about spousal abuse-it's interesting.




Pit bulls at Vick's house face deadline

By ZINIE CHEN SAMPSON, Associated Press WriterWed Aug 22

More than 50 pit bulls seized from Michael Vick's property face a Thursday deadline to be claimed. If no one comes forward, they could be euthanized.

Federal prosecutors filed court documents last month to condemn 53 pit bulls seized in April as part of the investigation into dogfighting on the Vick's property. No one has claimed any of the dogs, which are being held at several unspecified shelters in eastern Virginia, the U.S. Attorney's office said Wednesday.

The civil complaint filed by federal prosecutors does not name the Atlanta Falcons quarterback and is separate from the criminal case against him. But it does state the pit bulls were part of the dogfighting operation known as "Bad Newz Kennels," which Vick and three cohorts are accused of operating.

Also included in the document are detailed allegations about the nature of the animals' training regimen and the dogfights occurring at Vick's property at 1915 Moonlight Road in Surry County.

The government filed three public civil forfeiture notices in a Richmond newspaper to publicize the dogs' confiscation, and the deadline for claims is 30 days after the appearance of the final notice, filed July 24.

Federal prosecutors declined to comment Wednesday on the seized dogs. Typically, when confiscated property goes unclaimed, the government asks the court to have the items declared forfeited. In this case, U.S. District Judge Henry E. Hudson will make the final decision on the dogs' fate.

"There's no dispute over who owns the dogs," said Daphna Nachminovitch, a spokeswoman for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. "Obviously this is not going to be a process where someone steps forward and says, 'This is my dog, can I have her back, please?' "

Though Hudson, who also is handling Vick's criminal case, will determine what becomes of the pit bulls, Nachminovitch said that it's likely that they will be euthanized because they're not adoptable as pets.

"These dogs are a ticking time bomb," she said. "Rehabilitating fighting dogs is not in the cards. It's widely accepted that euthanasia is the most humane thing for them."

Vick, 27, said through a lawyer this week that he will plead guilty to a federal charge of conspiracy to travel in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities and conspiracy to sponsor a dog in an animal fighting venture. He is scheduled to enter his plea agreement Monday and could face up to five years in prison.

Three Vick associates have pleaded guilty to the conspiracy charge and agreed to testify against him if the case went to trial. They said Vick provided virtually all the gambling and operating funds for the Bad Newz Kennels enterprise. Two of them also said Vick participated in executing at least eight underperforming dogs by various means, including drowning and hanging.

The locations of the shelters holding the dogs haven't been disclosed out of concern that the animals could be stolen, Nachminovitch said.

"They are a hot commodity in the world of dogfighting," she said.

"If no one comes forward, they could be euthanized."


Ironic that everyone is up in arms over Mike Vick's treatment of these animals, when in the end the dogs' fate is likely sealed.

I wonder if Vick were involved with cockfighting, rather than dogfighting, how much less society as a whole would care. While dogfighting and the way fighting dogs are treated in general is despicable, and I have no sympathy for Vick, I think people's "gut reaction" to animal cruelty based on the type/breed/species on animal is pretty hypocritical. Are furriers more humane than Bad Newz Kennels? I doubt it.

[Liesje]

Originally posted by CTU2fan



"If no one comes forward, they could be euthanized."


Ironic that everyone is up in arms over Mike Vick's treatment of these animals, when in the end the dogs' fate is likely sealed.

What would you suggest? Do you have experience dealing with fighting dogs in an animal shelter? They are not adoptable, not because they cannot be rehabilitated (that's debatable), but because no one would ever step forward foster them and rehabilitate them so they can pass temperament testing. Don't blame the animal shelter, they only have as much money and resources as people are willing to donate.

I'm missing the irony...

[CTU2fan]

Originally posted by Liesje



What would you suggest? Do you have experience dealing with fighting dogs in an animal shelter? They are not adoptable, not because they cannot be rehabilitated (that's debatable), but because no one would ever step forward foster them and rehabilitate them so they can pass temperament testing. Don't blame the animal shelter, they only have as much money and resources as people are willing to donate.

I'm missing the irony...

The irony is that the "authorities" have seized these dogs, and the only way they can really deal with them is to euthanize them. I totally get that fighting dogs can't be adopted out...it's just sad, that once a dog is born into fighting he's doomed to a bad end, either from fatal injury in a fight, or being cruelly killed if/when he can't win fights, or being euthanized in a shelter because the fighting life is all he's ever known.

I wasn't criticizing the shelters at all, I realize I might have come across as critical and that wasn't my point. I do think younger dogs could be rehabbed (some anyway) but I can't even imagine how much time would have to go into it, and I'm not sure I'd 100% trust the dog in question in the end anyway.

[Liesje]

Originally posted by CTU2fan

The irony is that the "authorities" have seized these dogs, and the only way they can really deal with them is to euthanize them. I totally get that fighting dogs can't be adopted out...it's just sad, that once a dog is born into fighting he's doomed to a bad end, either from fatal injury in a fight, or being cruelly killed if/when he can't win fights, or being euthanized in a shelter because the fighting life is all he's ever known.

I wasn't criticizing the shelters at all, I realize I might have come across as critical and that wasn't my point. I do think younger dogs could be rehabbed (some anyway) but I can't even imagine how much time would have to go into it, and I'm not sure I'd 100% trust the dog in question in the end anyway.

That's the key (bold). Say you are going to a shelter to adopt a dog for your family...are you going to choose the little Beagle who is house trained and has manners but his elderly owner died, or the pittie who was trained to fight and who enjoys the chemical high he gets from being aggressive?

I'm glad Vick took a plea b/c it means the dogs will be put down sooner. If he had gone to trial, they would have to be held through the duration. 50 large, powerful dogs bred and conditioned to be dog-aggressive locked up in cement boxes all day is no life.

I find it interesting how America as a whole can't decide whether a dog is a possession/personal property, or a being deserving of rights similar to people...

[Diemen]

Originally posted by CTU2fan


The irony is that the "authorities" have seized these dogs, and the only way they can really deal with them is to euthanize them. I totally get that fighting dogs can't be adopted out...it's just sad, that once a dog is born into fighting he's doomed to a bad end, either from fatal injury in a fight, or being cruelly killed if/when he can't win fights, or being euthanized in a shelter because the fighting life is all he's ever known.

I wasn't criticizing the shelters at all, I realize I might have come across as critical and that wasn't my point. I do think younger dogs could be rehabbed (some anyway) but I can't even imagine how much time would have to go into it, and I'm not sure I'd 100% trust the dog in question in the end anyway.

It's not really irony so much as the ugly result of Vick's (and dogfighters') activities. It's a shame - no dog is born a killer, but assholes like Vick basically seal their fate as soon as they bring them into the dog fighting world.

[Headache in a Suitcase]

you would think, with PETA's outrage that the organization themselves would at least try and adopt some of the dogs and give rehabilitation a try...

[Vincent Vega]

Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
you would think, with PETA's outrage that the organization themselves would at least try and adopt some of the dogs and give rehabilitation a try...

Originally posted by Liesje

PETA seeks to kill all pit bulls.

[Liesje]

Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
you would think, with PETA's outrage that the organization themselves would at least try and adopt some of the dogs and give rehabilitation a try...

PETA wants all pits and pit-types (pits, amstaffs, staffy bulls, probably cane corsos and dogos too) dead. Rehabbing pits like Vick's is likely impossible. When breeding for fighting, they are selecting for aggression, ANY aggression. Traditionally, human-aggressive pits were culled (killed as pups) because the American Pit Bull Terrier is supposed to be a family dog that ONLY is aggressive towards other dogs and can be easily called off by a human. Ethical breeders select for temperament and correct structure very particularly; people that fight pits underground breed dogs WAY out of the standard, pay NO attention to temperament other than the worst traits that they are selecting for. Dog aggression, high drive, sound nerves and courage are genetic. Combine that with a dog who is socialized from birth to be agressive and fight and you'll never win. The dogs can get chemical highs from fighting just like super-aggressive people can. The more a dog is allowed or encouraged to escalate, the more ingrained it becomes. Often, the bait dogs are adoptable (the bait dogs are younger ones used to train the fighting dogs), but a dog that has actually won fights...no way. Fighting pits are insanely conditioned working dogs so placing them in a home is never going to fulfill their needs anyway. Plus, the liability of any organization placing these dogs is insane, not to mention the liability of potential owners should the dog attack and kill a neighbor's dog.

[Angela Harlem]

Originally posted by Diemen
Personally I find that last "etc" unnecessary.

But everything else is spot on.

It was to illustrate a point!

[kafrun]

Originally posted by Liesje


PETA wants all pits and pit-types (pits, amstaffs, staffy bulls, probably cane corsos and dogos too) dead. Rehabbing pits like Vick's is likely impossible.

Not entirely true. In the right hands, they can be some of the best dogs. It takes experienced handlers to thoroughly assess and temperment test them, and to then screen potential owners to find a suitable match. It would take a very experienced pit bull owner to handle them and to take on the responsibility, I certainly wouldn't recommend a former fighting dog to a first time dog owner or even first time pit bull owner. Yes, some of these dogs are warped beyond rehabilitation, but some are completely sound, despite their violent history.

The man I bought my pup from had two females, one who was a rescued fighting dog - scars, broken teeth and all. She was the most mellow animal you'd ever met . She watched happily as we approached and handled her 3-week old puppies.

It's a controversial issue, I know, but I've had first-hand experience with many of these dogs. They're actually quite remarkable when you get to know them.

Oh, and PETA

Apologies if this post is all over the place. I'm tired, but I tried to make as much sense as I could

[trevster2k]

Kaf's pit bull, Evie is a sweetie! Almost too affectionate at times, she could slobber you do death!!

Bad misguided owners end up with bad dogs no matter what the breed. I have seen some really evil small dogs who would chew every digit off your hand given the chance.

[Angela Harlem]

They're banned over here and it's illegal to own an American Pitbull, due to combined poor breeding which has seen too many enter the country with behavioural problems, and owners not being equipped to handle such a breed sufficiently.

[angelordevil]

Originally posted by Liesje


I'm not against rehab, but like Angela Harlem says, the torture of animals is only one symptom of a deeper problem. I wouldn't support having child kidnappers do mandatory recess duty at local schools or arsonists on the fire squads. Maybe he needs some kind of psychiatric evaluation and therapy, but I know first hand that the best animal shelters function well because everyone wants to be there.

Actually, you make perfect sense. I guess I just have this image in my mind of Vick breaking down at some point, profoundly regretting his wrongdoings, and then telling people how wrong he was. I can't fathom how a seemingly rational-thinking individual would be at peace with harming dogs so badly. There must a missing link there in his psychology, and I'd be interested in having that addressed in the media.

[Liesje]

Originally posted by kafrun
They're actually quite remarkable when you get to know them.

In my experience, besides German Shepherds and Border Collies, pits have been the easiest dogs for me to train! I LOVE working with our pittie puppies b/c they respond instantly to R+. It's harder to keep them focused and calm than say a German Shepherd, but they do take delight in training. On the other hand, the all American labrador retrievers have given me the worst frustrations!!!

[kafrun]

^ Sounds about right. I've had experience with all those breeds. Pits are incredibly smart, but strong-willed as well, so training can certainly be a challenge, but well worth the payoff

Originally posted by trevster2k
Kaf's pit bull, Evie is a sweetie! Almost too affectionate at times, she could slobber you do death!!

You still have her heart

[yolland]

Originally posted by CTU2fan
I wonder if Vick were involved with cockfighting, rather than dogfighting, how much less society as a whole would care. While dogfighting and the way fighting dogs are treated in general is despicable, and I have no sympathy for Vick, I think people's "gut reaction" to animal cruelty based on the type/breed/species on animal is pretty hypocritical.

It's an interesting point, although extending the biological category 'animal' (inevitably minus us, of course) into the legal and moral domain, as if it were an adequate catchall for reasoning about our proper relationship to everything from gorillas to cats to cockroaches, is itself arguably not as self-evidently logical as it might seem. At any rate, cockfighting is illegal in all 50 states and DC, and it also is covered by the Animal Fighting Prohibition Enforcement Act Vick et al. are being charged under, and is subject to the same penalties. Obviously that doesn't mean the average American's "gut reaction" to people charged with cockfighting would be the same--roosters aren't generally perceived as lovable personal companions whereas dogs (nowadays, anyhow) generally are. Plus dogfighting has been illegal for much longer in most states than cockfighting has, and has a stronger 'criminal underworld/sleazy' stigma (as opposed to a 'redneck/hillbilly' stigma, I guess) attached to it. As is the case in many other countries.

I might be more inclined to acknowledge the possibility of some kind of morally (not legally) mitigating 'sociocultural factors' *perhaps* being involved here were it not for Vick et al.'s firsthand involvement in behavior like killing 'underperforming' dogs by hanging, drowning and bludgeoning them. I can't swallow the idea that that's how someone who sincerely sees these dogs as 'sporty' born killing machines acts.

[angelordevil]

Originally posted by yolland

roosters aren't generally perceived as lovable personal companions

Boy, it's a good thing Little Mitch and Rusty haven't learned to read the computer screen yet.

I've seen pictures of cockfighting on the news...it's equally disturbing. You're right about our sensitivity to dogs, however. They've become such a part of our lives, and I'm certainly a part of that. It's undeniably true that certain animals are given more love and affection, while others are utilized primarily for sustenance. The overarching point, however, is that no animal (in any role we've given them) should be mocked and eliminated so needlessly.