do you love your country? - Page 4 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-30-2007, 06:32 PM   #61
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by vaz02
IF you fly the english flag your deamed a racist.
When you say "the English flag" do you mean the St. George's Cross?
__________________

__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 06-30-2007, 06:40 PM   #62
Refugee
 
WinnieThePoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: New England
Posts: 2,232
Local Time: 10:11 AM
oh i love my country , it has no borders , or certain flag , i'm a forever foreign man , stuck between cultures , between religions , i like the whole globe .
__________________

WinnieThePoo is offline  
Old 07-01-2007, 12:27 AM   #63
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington State
Posts: 3,861
Local Time: 02:11 PM
I can't say for sure...

I think I live in a really great country. Yeah, it has its problems, but I think overall America is a spectacular country. Still, I never really felt a huge amunt of patriotism. I love the people here as a whole, but I'm not so sure that has anything to do with the fact that they're American.

I'll most likely never have a chance to die for my country anyways. I've had head problems and I doubt I would ever be drafted (unless things got REALLY bad). I'd probably be sitting on the sidelines.

Anyways, if I said I love my country it's probably because I love the life I've become used to and I generally love America's people. Maybe that means I do love my country... or I just love people. I'd most likely risk my life for them if it was needed.

I never realized there were so many Australians here.
shart1780 is offline  
Old 07-01-2007, 12:34 AM   #64
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington State
Posts: 3,861
Local Time: 02:11 PM
I'll add that I have the utmost respct for those who died protecting our country. To me that's the most respectable thing any human could ever do for me. I feel a sense of personal gratitude to these people.

I kind of get the feeling that this board lacks the attitude that they'd fight for much. A lot of you (not singling out anyone, although you probably know who you are) seem to be the type of people who would run away and hide if you and the people around you were in danger instead of uniting and fghting back for a cause. I don't respect that attitude ONE BIT.
shart1780 is offline  
Old 07-01-2007, 12:57 AM   #65
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 09:11 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by shart1780

I kind of get the feeling that this board lacks the attitude that they'd fight for much. A lot of you (not singling out anyone, although you probably know who you are) seem to be the type of people who would run away and hide if you and the people around you were in danger instead of uniting and fghting back for a cause. I don't respect that attitude ONE BIT.
It's funny you mention that, for there are those that support a troop surge and are of age yet refuse to enlist, right here in this very board...

I also find it funny that people equate Iraq with a threat to freedom...

You were fed lies, and you fell for them hook, line, and sinker...
BVS is offline  
Old 07-01-2007, 02:43 AM   #66
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington State
Posts: 3,861
Local Time: 02:11 PM
First of all, I couldn't enlist even if I wanted to, due to health problems. Second, if I could enlist I don't feel that it would be my calling to fight for the US under the current situation. I don't feel like going to Iraq because I don't feel like it would do any good. I'm not a supporter of any big troop surges and I disagree with those who are.

If our country was being invaded I would probably feel much differently. Of course it's hard to say how I'd feel then, but I definitely wouldn't run to Canada or anything. I hate the attitude that some people have about their country where they'll let the government support them, but as soon as the government calls on them to fight for the freedoms they've been given they just pack their bags and jet. It's selfish and cowardly.

And why are you bringing Iraq into this in the first place? Don't assume that because I'd be willing to stand up and fight I also support our actions in the Middle East. For speaking so poorly of those who generalize you sure like to do it with me.
shart1780 is offline  
Old 07-01-2007, 06:28 AM   #67
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,739
Local Time: 04:11 PM
You should never assume from what people post or say in a situation of comfort, that this would be a safe indicator for their actions in a situation of need.

People speaking of how bravely they would defend their loved ones may be the first to be on the run, and vice versa. You can't predict one's behaviour when it comes to terms.

And I think one shouldn't judge people only because they are not that willing to defend their countries in any situation.
Vincent Vega is offline  
Old 07-01-2007, 08:33 AM   #68
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
TheQuiet1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: N.Yorkshire UK
Posts: 3,816
Local Time: 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

When you say "the English flag" do you mean the St. George's Cross?
Apparently some people might be offended by it due to its links to the Crusades. And the Union Flag of the UK doesn't fair much better either as it has been associated with extreme right wing groups for decades. I have vague memories that at one time the phrase "We need to reclaim our flag from the racists" was banded about a lot but the in thing now in the media seems to be to start playing down the Britishness and emphasizing your individual nationality (especially if you're English, the rest of them lot in the UK have been doing this for years but we've only just caught on ).
TheQuiet1 is offline  
Old 07-01-2007, 08:55 AM   #69
LJT
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
LJT's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Belfast
Posts: 5,191
Local Time: 03:11 PM
^Every Scot, and every Welsh person would say they are Welsh or Scottish before British, so why not the English just be English.....being British is kind of a nothingness....there is no British culture or British language, there is a definable Scottish/Welsh/English heritage and cultures.
LJT is offline  
Old 07-01-2007, 09:47 AM   #70
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
TheQuiet1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: N.Yorkshire UK
Posts: 3,816
Local Time: 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by LJT
^Every Scot, and every Welsh person would say they are Welsh or Scottish before British, so why not the English just be English.....being British is kind of a nothingness....there is no British culture or British language, there is a definable Scottish/Welsh/English heritage and cultures.
Yeah but Wales and Scotland have all the cool stuff like Welsh and Braveheart. What does England have? Bloody Morris dancers!

Seriously though I think Scotland and Wales have that slight advantage in that the Celtic ties are stronger. In England everything is such a mishmash. You have the Vikings here in Yorkshire and the North-East, the Anglo-Saxons in the Midlands and the Celtic fringe in the South-West. So although we do have a shared English culture, it doesn't seem as legitimate as our neighbours because it doesn't go back as far as them (if that makes sense?).

But I also think you're right. I think it would be good for England to start taking more pride in itself- especially in the era of devolution.
TheQuiet1 is offline  
Old 07-01-2007, 10:38 AM   #71
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by shart1780

I kind of get the feeling that this board lacks the attitude that they'd fight for much. A lot of you (not singling out anyone, although you probably know who you are) seem to be the type of people who would run away and hide if you and the people around you were in danger instead of uniting and fghting back for a cause. I don't respect that attitude ONE BIT.
Get over yourself.

Unlike almost everyone on this board, I actually lived through a war and all the wonderful fun of being SHOT at and knowing people who were blown to smitherines. You have no fucking clue what that's like or what it's like to have to live the rest of your life with those memories and coping.

I don't need somebody like you respecting my views. I actually had that worded a lot more colourfully the first time, but for the sake of civility, toned it down.
anitram is offline  
Old 07-01-2007, 01:04 PM   #72
Refugee
 
WinnieThePoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: New England
Posts: 2,232
Local Time: 10:11 AM

well, this is getting nasty ....


can we just get along ...?

we are the world
we are the children ......


WinnieThePoo is offline  
Old 07-01-2007, 01:49 PM   #73
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington State
Posts: 3,861
Local Time: 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


Get over yourself.

Unlike almost everyone on this board, I actually lived through a war and all the wonderful fun of being SHOT at and knowing people who were blown to smitherines. You have no fucking clue what that's like or what it's like to have to live the rest of your life with those memories and coping.

I don't need somebody like you respecting my views. I actually had that worded a lot more colourfully the first time, but for the sake of civility, toned it down.
Of course I don't know exactly how I'd react in the time of war. I can only go one how I feel at the moment, just like just about everyone else in this discussion. I'm not talking about civilians running. I'm not saying they should grab knives and forks and fight back. I'm saying that if the country that supports you asks for your help defending your own country's people it would be honorable to fight.

Maybe we should only let those who have lived through a war participate in this discussion then? If no one else's view is relevant.
shart1780 is offline  
Old 07-01-2007, 02:55 PM   #74
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 12:11 AM
Quote:
I'm saying that if the country that supports you asks for your help defending your own country's people it would be honorable to fight.
And then if you do the supposedly dishonourable thing and refuse then you can be chucked in jail, blind patriotism lets people be abused by governments and in the instances your alluding to it's done with conscription.
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 07-01-2007, 04:36 PM   #75
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by shart1780
I'm saying that if the country that supports you asks for your help defending your own country's people it would be honorable to fight.
This just goes to show you have no concept of what war time is actually like.

My father chose to leave and not fight. In fact, he essentially fled the country overnight, because he could see where things were going. Many of his friends and other people like you called him a coward and said he did not honour his duty. Those same friends were drafted and participated in what any civilized society would consider to be war crimes. Yes, many of them were honourable in defending their homes. And many raped and pillaged.

He decided that independence wasn't worth shooting his neighbour in the head and then raping his wife.

You think war time is men defending property and their women and children...what a joke.
anitram is offline  
Old 07-01-2007, 05:08 PM   #76
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 09:11 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by shart1780


And why are you bringing Iraq into this in the first place? Don't assume that because I'd be willing to stand up and fight I also support our actions in the Middle East. For speaking so poorly of those who generalize you sure like to do it with me.
Then what are you basing your "this board lacks the attitude that they'd fight for much" statement on then?

I find it funny that you admit yourself that you "don't know exactly how I'd react in the time of war" yet you generalize the board as an attitude you don't respect at all...

What a joke...
BVS is offline  
Old 07-01-2007, 05:14 PM   #77
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,739
Local Time: 04:11 PM
It's kind of disturbing that we are still living in a time where the question about "loving" the own country gets more or less answered with war.
Vincent Vega is offline  
Old 07-01-2007, 05:17 PM   #78
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 09:11 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
It's kind of disturbing that we are still living in a time where the question about "loving" the own country gets more or less answered with war.
It is...
BVS is offline  
Old 07-01-2007, 07:05 PM   #79
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 10:11 AM
You don't know until you're tested. And we haven't been tested truly. There wasn't much lack of resolve when it came to going into Afghanistan. The dots were connected. We didn't really do too great a job of it. The government lacked the will to continue there. That wasn't a people decision. Too anxious to get to Iraq.

I think most of us respect the soldiers. Are grateful for those who served and especially grateful to those who died even if they shouldn't have. But "support the troops" has become kind of a codeword like "family values". To too many, it means "Shut up, go along." Until the government defines support the troops as giving them sufficient supplies, don't keep them longer incountry than you promised them when they went in, take care of them when they come home, treat them with real respect instead of self-serving lip service, then I won't be paying too much attention to my government's catchphrases.

I know I've had to rethink my country these past several years in ways that make me uncomfortable. I haven't given up on it. But I'm still separating bullshit from reality. I think I'd fight for the good I see in it. I'm not going to look the other way, though.

We don't know what people will do when push comes to shove.
And why they'll do what they do.
BonosSaint is offline  
Old 07-01-2007, 09:05 PM   #80
Refugee
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,435
Local Time: 02:11 PM
I won't meditate upon on my own opinion about the present day, but I will say this. I envy previous generations, for whom this question was a lot easier to answer. My two great-uncles were refugees, they fled Turkey in the wake of the Genoicide of 1915, they spoke maybe three sentences of English and had nothing but the clothes on their back. They stepped off the boat in 1918 and enlisted, given citizenship right there. For them in was simple: America was a place of refuge. I don't doubt for many today it is the same. But back then, the media was newspapers and radio. Not as much spin. World War II, it was so easy...there was this madman Hitler who was plotting to take over the world, in the tradition of all grand conquerors of history, and it was question of your realy being in danger. Today all wars are not dramatic, they are guerrilla or at least dirty little unconventional affairs where the cause is murly and the methods even more so.

What disturbs me is even more is that these days America, seems at least to need a war or conflcit, an enemy, to both define itself and test its citizens loyalty. Society itself is becoming more militarized, and miltary service defines strength, and "peaceful" people more contemptuous. We are being asked to assert our patriotism in militant ways. There is no peaceful way to be a patriot. When I see tanks parked in a park with armed sodiers standing around and parents taking their little toddlers up to the tanks and sitting them on them and letting the little ones touch them and look up wonderingly, I dismays me and disturbs me to the very core. My sentiment is with Faramir: "I do not love the sword for its brightness, not the arrow for its swiftness..." etc. Americahas always been a war-loving nation to an extent, but there was a strong pacifist streak here too. More crazy communes and societies, etc.

It's complicated beyond belief. The nation-state is a modern construction, but all I can say is, given a choice between the modern, centralized, bearucratic nation-state with all its clunky machinery of state, and the fuedal city-state or polis (feudalism at its best), I'll take the nation-state, with all its flaws. Our present day is filled with a lamentable dearth of leaders, but at leas the structures they represent lurch along.
__________________

Teta040 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×