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Old 09-12-2007, 09:55 PM   #21
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When I see what passes for conservative thought nowadays, really, I just weep, sometimes almost literally, and when I see right wing Republican opinion being equated with conservative opinion on FYM on a regular basis I don't usually bother objecting.

It isn't liberalism or the left that has conservatism in its parlous state, it is conservatives (or, more accurately, those trading under the banner of conservatism) themselves.

Conservatism IS in a parlous state, and the damage Buschco and the neo-cons have done to the conservatism in the space of less than a decade is really quite incredible, it's almost on a par with the damage Marxism did to liberalism.

I would say it will take at least two generations to solve this.

Nevertheless, at my core, I would probably still define myself as a conservative. I don't really have a very good way of explaining this other than to say that conservatism, to me, represents three big ideas:-

(1) A belief in the freedom of the private citizen from unjust encroachment by the state

(2) A belief that societal change should be gradually and carefully implemented

(3) A belief in the rule of law, tempered always with mercy
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Old 09-12-2007, 10:00 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
Conservatism IS in a parlous state, and the damage Buschco and the neo-cons have done to the conservatism in the space of less than a decade is really quite incredible,

Surely a sign of the end times, but I agree with you.
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Old 09-12-2007, 10:04 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


(2) A belief that societal change should be gradually and carefully implemented

Well I have to say I agree with most of your post except maybe the Marxist part...

But the above is usually where you and I disagree. I think most social changes have occured far too slowly, and I can't think of one where conservatives were on the correct side of history.
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Old 09-13-2007, 09:10 AM   #24
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My dad is a hard core Republican (even though he was orginally a Democrate), mom is a Democrate (even though she was orginally a Republican). I'm a Republican but I have Liberal views. I've been thinking about switching over to being a Democrate. My dad and sister think this is not right.
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Old 09-13-2007, 09:25 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
Nevertheless, at my core, I would probably still define myself as a conservative. I don't really have a very good way of explaining this other than to say that conservatism, to me, represents three big ideas:-

(1) A belief in the freedom of the private citizen from unjust encroachment by the state

(2) A belief that societal change should be gradually and carefully implemented

(3) A belief in the rule of law, tempered always with mercy


you sound like a classical liberal.
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Old 09-14-2007, 05:29 PM   #26
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Slate.com debunks the study...

http://www.slate.com/id/2173965/
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Old 09-14-2007, 05:32 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
from my experience, conservatives see clarity as a goal, whereas liberals see complexity as a goal.
Occam's Razor:

"All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the right one."
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Old 09-14-2007, 06:26 PM   #28
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"All things being equal...." is a necessary component.
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Old 09-14-2007, 11:40 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
from my experience, conservatives see clarity as a goal, whereas liberals see complexity as a goal.
Just curious - why would complexity be a goal? I can understand it being a "state of things" - but not an actual goal.
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Old 09-14-2007, 11:41 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint
"All things being equal...." is a necessary component.
No...the RIGHT one is the necessary component.
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Old 09-14-2007, 11:47 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




you sound like a classical liberal.
Really - the Liberals in these parts would disagree with all three.

1) Individual freedom is sacrificed at the alter of political correctness.
2) change should happen NOW (ACT! END IRAQ NOW!) There is nothing gradual about their causes
3) Rule of law? Are you kidding? Laws comes from the "the man" or "the system" simply to keep them down and press them into a sheeple mold
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Old 09-15-2007, 02:54 AM   #32
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The thread is actually about the thought processes of both types.

But, I don't know many liberals who don't believe in the rule of law. They have a tendency to work within the law to change the system....with occasional acts of civil disobedience to push the change of the law. That particular point you made was just silly.

Both sides are uncomfortable with total individual freedom. Both sides champion different aspects of it that are often at odds with each other.
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Old 09-15-2007, 02:59 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


No...the RIGHT one is the necessary component.
When parsing a short statement, it is necessary to consider all of the parts of it. You're welcome to create your own theory.

An alternate presentation of Occam's Razor is that "we should not assert that for which we do not have some proof."

http://www.physics.adelaide.edu.au/~...ral/occam.html

Occam's Razor argues for simple, not simplistic.

I'm not sure that many American conservatives would be comfortable with the principle of Occam's Razor. Wanderer has used it quite effectively in support of an atheistic approach.
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Old 09-15-2007, 03:32 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


No...the RIGHT one is the necessary component.
Of course the correct one is necessary...and that's where you're screwed.
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Old 09-15-2007, 03:52 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


1) Individual freedom is sacrificed at the alter of political correctness.
Bullshit!!! This is such a copout...

Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

2) change should happen NOW (ACT! END IRAQ NOW!) There is nothing gradual about their causes
I do agree that many changes should happen now.

Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

3) Rule of law? Are you kidding? Laws comes from the "the man" or "the system" simply to keep them down and press them into a sheeple mold
You really have little understanding of anything outside your box. You really do, and it's scary.
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Old 09-15-2007, 04:42 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by MaxFisher


Occam's Razor:

"All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the right one."

But I think you made a point in differentiating between clarity and complexity. I think sometimes liberals get stymied in complexity. Perhaps, it might be more accurate to say that many liberals show an appreciation for complexity as opposed to complexity being a goal.
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Old 09-15-2007, 07:51 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
1) Individual freedom is sacrificed at the alter of political correctness.
2) change should happen NOW (ACT! END IRAQ NOW!) There is nothing gradual about their causes
3) Rule of law? Are you kidding? Laws comes from the "the man" or "the system" simply to keep them down and press them into a sheeple mold
As an independent, I can tell you that your description of liberals is terribly, terribly biased and inaccurate. That description is something you'd only ever hear from a very conservative person who hates liberals.
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Old 09-15-2007, 09:08 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra


Of course the correct one is necessary...and that's where you're screwed.
I was actually joking - I was playing on the word RIGHT (meaning conservative)
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Old 09-15-2007, 09:20 AM   #39
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I was wondering how you missed two elements of such a short statement.
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Old 09-15-2007, 12:34 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


I was actually joking - I was playing on the word RIGHT (meaning conservative)
I know.
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