Do Liberals And Conservatives Literally Think Differently?

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Irvine511 said:




you sound like a classical liberal.

Really - the Liberals in these parts would disagree with all three.

1) Individual freedom is sacrificed at the alter of political correctness.
2) change should happen NOW (ACT! END IRAQ NOW!) There is nothing gradual about their causes
3) Rule of law? Are you kidding? Laws comes from the "the man" or "the system" simply to keep them down and press them into a sheeple mold
 
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The thread is actually about the thought processes of both types.

But, I don't know many liberals who don't believe in the rule of law. They have a tendency to work within the law to change the system....with occasional acts of civil disobedience to push the change of the law. That particular point you made was just silly.

Both sides are uncomfortable with total individual freedom. Both sides champion different aspects of it that are often at odds with each other.
 
AEON said:


No...the RIGHT one is the necessary component.

When parsing a short statement, it is necessary to consider all of the parts of it. You're welcome to create your own theory.

An alternate presentation of Occam's Razor is that "we should not assert that for which we do not have some proof."

http://www.physics.adelaide.edu.au/~dkoks/Faq/General/occam.html

Occam's Razor argues for simple, not simplistic.

I'm not sure that many American conservatives would be comfortable with the principle of Occam's Razor. Wanderer has used it quite effectively in support of an atheistic approach.
 
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AEON said:


No...the RIGHT one is the necessary component.

Of course the correct one is necessary...and that's where you're screwed. :wink:
 
AEON said:


1) Individual freedom is sacrificed at the alter of political correctness.
Bullshit!!! This is such a copout...

AEON said:

2) change should happen NOW (ACT! END IRAQ NOW!) There is nothing gradual about their causes

I do agree that many changes should happen now.

AEON said:

3) Rule of law? Are you kidding? Laws comes from the "the man" or "the system" simply to keep them down and press them into a sheeple mold

You really have little understanding of anything outside your box. You really do, and it's scary.
 
MaxFisher said:


Occam's Razor:

"All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the right one."


But I think you made a point in differentiating between clarity and complexity. I think sometimes liberals get stymied in complexity. Perhaps, it might be more accurate to say that many liberals show an appreciation for complexity as opposed to complexity being a goal.
 
AEON said:
1) Individual freedom is sacrificed at the alter of political correctness.
2) change should happen NOW (ACT! END IRAQ NOW!) There is nothing gradual about their causes
3) Rule of law? Are you kidding? Laws comes from the "the man" or "the system" simply to keep them down and press them into a sheeple mold

As an independent, I can tell you that your description of liberals is terribly, terribly biased and inaccurate. That description is something you'd only ever hear from a very conservative person who hates liberals.
 
indra said:


Of course the correct one is necessary...and that's where you're screwed. :wink:

I was actually joking - I was playing on the word RIGHT (meaning conservative)
 
I was wondering how you missed two elements of such a short statement.:D :evil:
 
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AEON said:
2) change should happen NOW (ACT! END IRAQ NOW!) There is nothing gradual about their causes

I agree with your first point to an extent, but no true conservative could possibly support the Iraq war.
 
financeguy said:


I agree with your first point to an extent, but no true conservative could possibly support the Iraq war.

Did you vote for Pat Buchanan?
 
AEON said:
Really - the Liberals in these parts would disagree with all three.

1) Individual freedom is sacrificed at the alter of political correctness.
2) change should happen NOW (ACT! END IRAQ NOW!) There is nothing gradual about their causes
3) Rule of law? Are you kidding? Laws comes from the "the man" or "the system" simply to keep them down and press them into a sheeple mold

Really, you know that this is a sloppy stereotype, because I can describe "conservatives" in the same mold:

1) Individual freedom is sacrificed at the altar of "Christian morality."
2) Change should happen NOW (ACT! BAN GAY MARRIAGE NOW!) There is nothing gradual about their causes.
3) Rule of law? If judges don't rule MY WAY, then they're obviously "activist judges" who should be impeached (never mind that a sizable percentage of these so-called "activist judges" were Republican appointees, all the way from the "gay marriage" cases to the judge who ordered Terri Shiavo's life support cessation).

There's certainly a couple of conservatives here that I can name off the top of my head who are this reliably hysterical.
 
MaxFisher said:
Occam's Razor:

"All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the right one."

This is often paraphrased as "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the right one," or alternately, "We should not assert that for which we do not have some proof."

In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities (although this is not always the same as simplicity). It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood.
 
melon said:


Really, you know that this is a sloppy stereotype, because I can describe "conservatives" in the same mold:

1) Individual freedom is sacrificed at the altar of "Christian morality."
2) Change should happen NOW (ACT! BAN GAY MARRIAGE NOW!) There is nothing gradual about their causes.
3) Rule of law? If judges don't rule MY WAY, then they're obviously "activist judges" who should be impeached (never mind that a sizable percentage of these so-called "activist judges" were Republican appointees, all the way from the "gay marriage" cases to the judge who ordered Terri Shiavo's life support cessation).

There's certainly a couple of conservatives here that I can name off the top of my head who are this reliably hysterical.

I see you're point. However, I was trying to debunk the Liberal myth instead of creating a Conservative myth.
 
phillyfan26 said:


Do you have anything to refute his point about true conservatives' opinions on the war?

I was once a extremely "conservative" type of isolationsist (like Buchanan). However, I was once reading a biography on JFK and I was inspired to believe that the US could actually make the world a better place for the overwhelming majority of the people on this planet.
 
AEON said:


I was once a extremely "conservative" type of isolationsist (like Buchanan). However, I was once reading a biography on JFK and I was inspired to believe that the US could actually make the world a better place for the overwhelming majority of the people on this planet.

By bombing them into democracy?
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


By bombing them into democracy?

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.

This much we pledge--and more.

- JFK
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Yeah, we've had this debate before when you said JFK was a neocon, no reason to bump a 2 week old thread to do it again.

Sorry. I didn't know there was a time limit for a good point.
 
It wasn't a good point the first time around, why would it be one now? You weren't able to answer any of the questions people gave you and you flaked out then, why would it be any different this time around. It's useless.
 
phillyfan26 said:


The quote doesn't discuss going out of our way.

I guess I equate "meeting any hardship" with "going out of our way" - I'm weird like that.
 
AEON said:
I guess I equate "meeting any hardship" with "going out of our way" - I'm weird like that.

I don't equate "meeting any hardship" with "bombing others into democracy." THAT would be going out of our way.
 
financeguy said:


(1) A belief in the freedom of the private citizen from unjust encroachment by the state

(2) A belief that societal change should be gradually and carefully implemented

(3) A belief in the rule of law, tempered always with mercy

See now these are principles that I can see underscorig genuine debate. I may or may not agree with with all of them, or I may disagree with someone as to the extent of their application, but I can at least see the reasoning.

However I can't see how these principles determine the types of stands that seem be defining "Conservative" in America today. I don't see anything in those principles that inexorably lead, for example, to support of the war in Iraq or implicitly suggest that the United States is a Christian nation and so on. There's nothing particularly simplistic about the principles listed above, but today conservatism seems to be defined (at least in the US) by a simplistic type of thinking. Worst of all, it seems like the most vocal "conservatives" are no longer arguing from these basic principles at all. There seems to be a lot of muscular hyperbole and defamation of those with opposing viewpoints, a lot of really lazy and cynical arguing. I don't find much to respect in that.

I always understood conservatives (in whatever sense) were generally cautious about change, whereas liberals are more open and eager to change. Both viewpoints are absolutely necessary to the health of a nation.

But such a balanced understanding seems to be lost today. It seems the level of discourse in this country hasn't been this low in a long time, and I do believe that simplistic, entertainment-oriented, mindset that seems to be thriving today is a better fit with what's considered "conservative" thinking. Good guys and bad guys. Settling things with your fists instead of being all diplomatic and wussy. Or on the other hand recognizing shades of gray and nuance. Long discussionas around the table of diplomacy. You tell me which makes a better movie.
 
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