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#21 | |
Blue Crack Supplier
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 30,343
Local Time: 07:38 PM
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Quote:
No one claimed that we should free every convicted person. Can we agree to that? If he had been convicted of a death penalty crime, this man would have been executed. Can we agree to that? If this man had been executed, it would have been for a crime he did not commit. Can we agree to that? If you can agree to those three points, then this discussion can continue. If we cannot, you are a complete waste of time. Those three things are crucial to you understanding what we're trying to say here, and they don't even have anything to do with the death penalty debate. It requires tremendous amounts of patience to get even this far with you, and it's not even the real issue. So, respond to those three points. If you agree to them, then I will make another post getting more towards the heart of the issue. |
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#22 | |
Refugee
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tel-Aviv, Israel
Posts: 1,300
Local Time: 12:38 AM
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OF COURSE I agree with these three points! Do you think that I'm a total droid devoid of all human feelings? I applaud and salute the fact that the man was cleared of all blame and I'm appalled that he served even ONE DAY in jail not to mention 27 years(!!!) for a crime he didn't commit - that was a horrendous miscarriage of justice and I wouldn't be surprised if he filed a multi-million dollar lawsuit against anyone involved with his wrongful imprisonment. Although no amount of money can give him those 27 years back...... That isn't the point I raised in my post. I'm not talking about cases like this where a man was wrongfully convicted. I'm talking about murderers who were JUSTLY tried, convicted and sentenced, and with whom there is no doubt at all of their guilt - examples of which I gave in my previous post. Now, if I may, let me ask YOU 3 questions and by your answers I'll see if you can understand the point I'm trying to get across: 1. Was the death penalty justified in the case of John Couey - who kidnapped Jessica Lunsford, raped her and buried her alive? 2. Was the death penalty justified in the case of the Manson family who butchered 7 innocent people - especially Susan Atkins who repeatedly stabbed a pregnant Sharon Tate, ignoring her pleas for mercy? Notwithstanding the fact that their sentence was commuted. 3. Was the death penalty justified in the case of Ted Bundy who viciously murdered over 30 people in several states before finally getting caught? Finally, let me ask you a hypothetical question (which I hope will be a real one soon): If Osama Bin Laden were finally caught and brought to trial (G-d willing), would you support his being sentenced to death for the attacks on the USS Cole, the Bali Bombings, the Madrid bombings and Sept. 11th? Even though he didn't actively participate in the attacks (much like the case of Charles Manson who didn't commit the crimes himself but sent his followers to do the work for him but was sentenced to death anyway). Thank you and have a good day. |
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#23 | ||
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Join Date: Aug 2002
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![]() You call it a "horrendous miscarriage of justice", and then you say "I'm talking about murderers who were JUSTLY tried, convicted and sentenced". They are were tried by the same system. The system will NEVER be 100% absolute, therefore you can never have a 100% absolute sentence. Why is this so hard for some to understand? Your stance is purely an emotional one, it's clear by the questions you ask. Justice isn't based on emotion. |
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#24 | ||||
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator Join Date: Sep 2000
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Frankly your examples only highlight your poor understanding of the subject and your tendency to look for revenge and not justice. And like BVS and everyone else here has pointed out, the system is not perfect. The same system that tried and convicted Manson and all these bad people you've named, is the same one that tried and convicted Charles Chatman - an innocent man. You can never be 100% sure of guilt in our system. I'm sorry but that's just how it works. But if you're okay with a few innocent people getting put to death as long as the ones that really evoke your sense of revenge get it to, then go ahead, keep arguing for it. Just remember that the blood of the wrongly convicted is on your hands too. Killing someone because they killed someone else is not justice, it is revenge. Period. |
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#25 | |||
Refugee
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tel-Aviv, Israel
Posts: 1,300
Local Time: 12:38 AM
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Quote:
From the CNN website: Couey, a convicted sex offender, was staying nearby in a trailer with his half-sister. Couey kidnapped the girl from her bedroom and later, in a taped confession, admitted that he buried the child alive. "I went out there one night and dug a hole and put her in it. Buried her," he said. She was found wrapped in garbage bags, holding a stuffed toy dolphin, her hands bound with stereo wire. Jessica died from asphyxiation after being sexually assaulted, according to a medical examiner's report I can't believe that you have no problem with this man going on living, eating 3 meals a day, watching TV, exercising, and basically going on with his life after he so brutally took Jessica's life away. Quote:
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The key word here is MERITED......and these criminals certainly did MERIT their sentences. Revenge has nothing to do with it. |
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#26 |
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator Join Date: Sep 2000
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No, the key word is impartial. One can't be impartial if you're so outraged over the crimes that you want to kill whoever did it.
And look, you're just going to have to face it that there are people out here who don't believe in killing people for the crimes they've committed, no matter how heinous. |
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#27 | |
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator Join Date: Sep 2000
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Oh, and one more thing:
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Why don't you just admit that it's not justice you're after, but revenge? Ok, so one more thing along the lines of merit. Back when hanging was in practice, or death by beheading, or being drawn and quartered: do you think those types of death were merited? |
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#28 | |
Blue Crack Supplier
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
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You can never be 100% absolute of someone's guilt. So how do you determine who gets the chair or not? Because Manson is scary looking guy and it's an infamous crime does that make that one worthy of death? |
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#29 | |||
Blue Crack Supplier
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 30,343
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Now that we can move past those points... Quote:
That point you're saying you're not raising? THAT HAS TO BE THE POINT. You're correct, it isn't the point you raised. Do you know why? You're MISSING the point. Was this man not justly tried, convicted and sentenced? Under the same exact system as the ones you want the death penalty for? Quote:
2. No. 3. No. 4. No. Why? We can't have a system in which we try to decide which cases have more certainty. There's no possible way to judge that. |
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#30 |
Jesus Online
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 11:38 AM
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AchtungBono, justice and the justice system involves the competing and conflicting needs of 3 different groups. It is not justice when all are not taken into acount. It's difficult to swallow, especially given the heinousness of some crimes, but a justice system is a complex framework - not an emotional or personal institution. You cannot refuse to take into account the 3 different parties. It must work for all. What you always propose fails in this.
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#31 | |
Blue Crack Supplier
Join Date: May 2006
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Local Time: 07:38 PM
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Our system uses the words "beyond a reasonable doubt." Because of this, we will never, ever, ever, ever be certain. |
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#32 |
Blue Crack Addict
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
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Local Time: 05:38 PM
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![]() This man is on death row he kinda looks like a killer, doesn't he? why trust this new dna evidence? here is the article, how many chances do we give these convicted killers? |
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#33 | |
Refugee
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tel-Aviv, Israel
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Local Time: 12:38 AM
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![]() And neither did he: ![]() What's your point? |
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#34 |
Jesus Online
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 11:38 AM
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deep just thinks everyone has this built in racism chip.
![]() there's only one person on fym who is hung up on race differentiation.
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#35 | |
Blue Crack Supplier
Join Date: May 2006
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Local Time: 07:38 PM
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You have conveniantly skipped over this post, haven't you, AchtungBono.
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#36 |
Blue Crack Addict
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
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![]() Masters to be released from prison That guy sure looks guilty. Just look at that outfit. He won't even look you in the eye. He had a trial. He was found guilty. He should have been executed a long time ago. But noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. With this new dna evidence. ![]() He will walk free. What about the 15 year old girl that was sexually mutilated and murdered? Where is the justice. ![]() an eye for a eye ![]() |
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