disrespectful Canadians.....

[zonelistener]

MONTREAL -- Fans booed during the playing of the U.S. national anthem before Thursday night's New York Islanders game against the Montreal Canadiens in Montreal.

The sellout crowd of 21,000 at Bell Centre was asked to ``show your support and respect for two great nations'' before the singing of the American and Canadian national anthems.

But a significant portion of the crowd booed throughout ``The Star-Spangled Banner'' in an apparent display of their displeasure with the U.S.-led war against Iraq.

Islanders player Mark Parrish, who's from Bloomington (Minn.), was upset hearing the boos. He says that got him more pumped up for the game.

The Islanders won the game, 6-3.

I might not support the war - but booing is not cool.

 

[womanfish]

It's not just Canadians. There were "peace" protests in Portland, OR yesterday, while I watched, protesters were waving a U.S. flag, then dragging it along the ground and while dragging it stepping on it. then when they were done waving it, laying it on the ground next to them. It just shows the ignorance and disrespect of many.

That along with the fact of two police officers assaulted, over 100 arrests, and trash and trash cans strewn through the streets and thrown at police.

 

[BAW]

True...its not just Canadians...the entire world is booing us it seems

 

[speedracer]

True...its not just Canadians...the entire world is booing us it seems

Almost by definition, people who support the status quo (which in this case is war) don't protest. So it looks like the anti-war protesters vastly outnumber the war supporters, but I'm not sure if that's the case.

FWIW, the latest polls in the UK show that a majority of the British population supports the war.

 

[Beefeater]

This is true Speedracer, I think people have calculated the actual number of individuals who actually oppose this war.. and it comes out to be about .006 percent of the world population.

Take from that what you will,

Beefeater

 

[Michael Griffiths]

I would like to see those stats Beefeater.

Anyway, I find this thread's title very misleading. I find it interesting that people are saying Canadians are ignorant, because they are being just as ignorant by tarring all of us with the same brush. This happened at a hockey game, where some of the crowd of 20,000 bood the anthem -- which they should not have done. But please don't assume all Canadians would have done the same thing. Most Canadians love America. We just disagree with how the Bush administration has handled this conflict. According to a very recent poll, 75% of Canadians didn't want this war without UN support. Those are pretty telling results, and it turns out that many of the nations who are supporting, it's more so the governments, and not the people. I just saw a news story on CBC Newsworld (which is like night and day compared to the propaganda of CNN), in which the so called "Coalition of the Willing" was critically examined (I'd like to see CNN do the same thing). It turns out almost all of the countries are small, impoverished nations, highly dependent on US aid. Many didn't even want to be named, but pretty much gave into pressure. Other nations are offering nothing but moral support, but are still included in this coalition, leading some to state this is the "Coalition of the Coerced" rather than the willing. Dont' kid yourselves: world opinion on this matter is not as in favour as many have been spoon fed to believe.

Canada would have fully backed this effort if there had been UN security council approval, which we've been saying all along. And that's completely fair. It's not our war. It's America's. I don't know why that's such a difficult concept to grasp. Yes, we, like the rest of the world, will be greatly affected by this war, but it wasn't our choice. But you know what? We will still be there to clean up damage, to aid in humanitarian ways, and even re-construct Iraq. Canada is not as disrespectful as some would like to believe.

 

[The Wanderer]

I just saw a news story on CBC Newsworld (which is like night and day compared to the propaganda of CNN), in which the so called "Coalition of the Willing" was critically examined (I'd like to see CNN do the same thing). It turns out almost all of the countries are small, impoverished nations, highly dependent on US aid. Many didn't even want to be named, but pretty much gave into pressure. Other nations are offering nothing but moral support, but are still included in this coalition, leading some to state this is the "Coalition of the Coerced" rather than the willing. Dont' kid yourselves: world opinion on this matter is not as in favour as many have been spoon fed to believe.

nations included in the coalition:

United Kingdom
Australia
Spain
Japan
South Korea
Philippines
Portugal
Italy
Netherlands
Denmark
Iceland
Czech Republic
Slovakia
Bulgaria
Romania
Hungary
Poland
Turkey
Kuwait
Uzbekistan
Latvia
Lithuania
Georgia
Costa Rica

---------
blah blah blah, god you sound so righteous, the funny thing is you truly believe that your media has no agenda and is unbiased in its coverage of world events

 

[foray]

I have something to clear up. Wasn't the coalition of the willing borne out of the gulf war? And so, a lot of theses same nations that you listed may not in fact support this second gulf war?

foray

 

[The Wanderer]

no, the UN supported the first gulf war. this is an updated list.

 

[Michael Griffiths]

WATCH MORE TV

and remember...

BE-LIE-VE

I never thought of you as someone who would resort to personal insults, Wanderer.

And BTW - did I ever say our media has no agenda? Please, you of all people should know how much I don't like people putting words in my mouth. I simply said it's like night and day compared to your media. That's a fact. I get both US and Canadian media, so I have the privilege of being able to compare. I don't think any news media is completely unbiased, but as far as mainstream media goes, the CBC is generally regarded as one of the best in the world. That's not my opinion. That's general consensus.

Oh and Wanderer, I was simply defending some of the blatantly off base remarks about Canadians in this thread. I'm sure you would have done the same if you were in my position?

 

[The Wanderer]

um, Michael, you're being a little hyper-sensitive about this, there really was no "blatantly off base remarks about Canadians" in this thread, a simple account from the news about fans in Montreal booing the US National Anthem, then some comments about people in Oregon (USA) dragging a US flag around and some speculation about how many people support the war, etc

you assert that you *know* world opinion and make comments about how people are being "spoon fed" information in the US; then you talk about how Canada will of course be involved in "humanitarian ways" and all the efforts to clean up of the "damage" caused by the United States

I can't really find any other words to describe that, it reflects a great deal of righteousness in the statements made by the author of the comments

 

[Anthony]

It must be said, that in Britain at least, the 'support' for war is not for the war itself, its for the soldiers that are being sent. Those who were against the war in the first place are now supporting it merely because they have to - it is no longer wise nor patriotic to NOT support the troops that are being sent to Iraq. Though they find the war itself repugnant, they find themselves supporting the victory of the troops.

That is the 'majority' of anti-war opinionists, I still find the war and the troops' presence repugnant.

Ant.

 

[Dreadsox]

I think this is kind of like the debate in another thread about what does support mean. THere are many governements that support us while their citizens apparently do not. Italy comes to mind here.

 

[kobayashi]

much like the olympics CBC is far better than others... i have not watched CBS but people say they are also good. i must say i occassionally get bored with CBC and i look for action on CNN

this is hardly worth mentioning, but at last nites sens-thrashers game sportsnet.ca is reporting about 20 people booing the start of the canadian anthem. the crowd collectively cheered afterward however--link

 

[Dreadsox]

We are in trying times. I kind of expect this to go on. Good grief, look at us and French Fries.

 

[speedracer]

Warning: Canadian stereotypes lie ahead.

Anyway, I find this thread's title very misleading. I find it interesting that people are saying Canadians are ignorant, because they are being just as ignorant by tarring all of us with the same brush. This happened at a hockey game, where some of the crowd of 20,000 bood the anthem -- which they should not have done. But please don't assume all Canadians would have done the same thing.

Yeah. Most Canadians are way too polite and self-effacing to ever do something like that. It must just be those obnoxious Quebecois. Maybe they should secede already, eh?

Canada would have fully backed this effort if there had been UN security council approval, which we've been saying all along. And that's completely fair. It's not our war. It's America's. I don't know why that's such a difficult concept to grasp. Yes, we, like the rest of the world, will be greatly affected by this war, but it wasn't our choice. But you know what? We will still be there to clean up damage, to aid in humanitarian ways, and even re-construct Iraq.

Has the Canadian government gone on record as saying this? If so, excellent.

 

[Holy John]

I am a Qu?b?cois and I'd like some excuse for this word, obnoxious.

We didn't change the names that include the word 'America', unlike the French fries stuff and I'd like to see if the americans still french kiss...

 

[Holy John]

But I have to agree that it is a nice scrabble word you used to put a name on us.

But national anthems don't have their place in a sports game. You want to think about something else than your life or than this war, and they put you national anthems...

 

[speedracer]

I am a Qu?b?cois and I'd like some excuse for this word, obnoxious.

We didn't change the names that include the word 'America', unlike the French fries stuff and I'd like to see if the americans still french kiss...

As far as I know, most places where I live that serve fried potato strips still call them French fries. Unless you're ordering fish 'n chips. It's too bad they don't serve poutine around here, really.

But in retaliation for the anthem-booing at the Canadiens game, there is a massive Celine Dion CD bonfire going on here. (No, not really.)

 

[Basstrap]

just to make note...last year the US booed our national anthem as well.
not to justify it...just...umm....lets say...hockey fans don't represent the whole population.

It's funny, ya know, how an imaginary border can change so much., My friend just got back from Nashville where he visited his girlfriend. He said it was amazing how different opinions are.
All my friends and pretty much everyone in my city is totally opposed to war. We had a house party last night with about 35 or 40 people my age (21/22) and war came up of course. Everyone just getting really annoyed with the whole thing.

Then my friend went to nashville and he said you'd be lucky if 1 in 6 people opposed the war.

it's just odd.

 

[pub crawler]

Then my friend went to nashville and he said you'd be lucky if 1 in 6 people opposed the war.

it's just odd.

Yeah, I can believe that. Just after 9-11 and at the onset of the bombing of Afghanistan I was driving through townships near California's Yosemite National Park -- mostly farming/agriculture-based communities. I would venture to say that most homes, businesses and churches had American (U.S.) flags flying and signs posted saying "God Bless America." You're not going to see nearly as much of that where I live, i.e. L.A. In the U.S., the "God and Country" ethos seems to be most prevalent in small communities and the South.

 

[MissVelvetDress_75]

You're not going to see nearly as much of that where I live, i.e. L.A. In the U.S., the "God and Country" ethos seems to be most prevalent in small communities and the South.

yup, it is all over the place down here.

 

[pub crawler]

yup, it is all over the place down here.

Oy. Iris, I once belonged to a conservative church where "God and Country" was practically the guiding religious credo. That was before I was enlightened. heheh.

 

[MissVelvetDress_75]

apparently some kind soul in Vegas thinks you need to go back to church.

 

[pub crawler]

LOL.

 

[Michael Griffiths]

um, Michael, you're being a little hyper-sensitive about this, there really was no "blatantly off base remarks about Canadians" in this thread...

Really? So you don't think that lumping the whole country into one box based on a tiny faction isn't a little off base? Three times in this thread (up until my first post), you'll find it happening. The second post started off by saying, "It's not just Candians..." (as opposed to some Canadians), and the next post down includes this:

True...its not just Canadians...the entire world is booing us it seems

Again, the same thing, tarring the whole country with the same brush instead referring (either implicitly or explicity) to it as a small group of Canadians at a hockey game. The title "Disrespectful Canadians" (the third time the country is lumped into a box in this thread) doesn't do much for me either. Put it this way, if a small group of Americans had decided to go on record to say that, say, all Chinese were useless people, and you saw a thread talking about how horrible these Americans were, but it was entitled, "Disrespectful Americans," wouldn't you feel a little annoyed by it's gererality? Think about it first, visualize the situation, then answer.
.

you assert that you *know* world opinion and make comments about how people are being "spoon fed" information in the US

Hey, it's quite well known, and once you see the difference in media coverage and the difference in information being passed on, it becomes blatently clear. I could give you some more examples, but you probably won't even bother listening. Instead, you'll likely say I'm being self rightous.

then you talk about how Canada will of course be involved in "humanitarian ways" and all the efforts to clean up of the "damage" caused by the United States

Once again, please don't put words in my mouth. This is getting ridiculous. I only said what Cretien himself said Canada would do -- that they would be there to help re-construct Iraq and to aid the country. I thought people should know that before they claim how "disrespecful" Canada is being. As for you interpreting me as saying we'll be there to clean up the damage "caused by the United States" -- that only shows a hypersensitivity on your part. I only said that this wasn't Canada's war, that we had no intention of entering it without UN support, and that we'd be there to help once it's all over. Those are all facts stated by the government of Canada. If you want to take my words and fit them to your liking, go right ahead, but you're only aggrivating yourself and disrespecting me. I really can't respect someone who would do that. Once again, for the third time, please don't put words in my mouth.

I can't really find any other words to describe that, it reflects a great deal of righteousness in the statements made by the author of the comments

Once again, if that's your interpretation of the facts I've tried my best to lay out, that's really for you to deal with. I just wish you wouldn't resort to personal insults, because, well, I've got feelings too, and I was only stepping in defending the sentiments against Canada while also shedding some light, perhaps, on things some people haven't thought about a great deal, and certainly would not have heard about given they don't get our media. You'd think people would welcome further information, even if it means they end up rejecting it. I only gave them the opportunity to make the choice.

 

[The Wanderer]

the 2nd post by womanfish that you quoted states that it's not just Canada where people are upset with the US, but people actually in the US, and talks about specific protesters in Oregon going out of their way to be disrespectful; you cant say Canadians and the world in general overwhelming opose the war in one breath, then say that people shouldnt generalize about Canadian and world sentiment, there is nothing there saying that all canadians and world citizens boo the US national anthem and drag flags around during protests

the thread title is accurate, people who boo the national anthem at a sporting event are being disrespectful, it doesnt say ALL canadians are doing it either, and it's assumed the reader can grasp the notion that the entire Canadian population isnt at that particular hockey game; that being said, if Americans boo the Canadian national anthem they are being disrespectful as well, and it's especially foolish considering most NHL players are Canadian-born (though many now reside in the US), it could happen, if it does I will be the first to criticize

and again, you righteously spout off about how I need to look at "different" media coverage, and you make the assumption that I've never watched or read anything other than US media coverage, which I guess you think is the only excuse for my position I dunno, I dont wanna put words in your mouth! but when people are cryptic with their statements, that's what happens, vagueness leads to people having to draw their own conclusions out of the clues and hints presented

what is it that people didnt get from your media again? I mean, I heard about the coalition criticisms from Tom Daschle and other outspoken Democrats who were given plenty of network time to talk about it, I also read about it on the BBC website and in an Observor article, oh and there were editorials about it in the Washington Post, dont know about other US papers but I would be stunned if it wasnt discussed in the NY Times

 

[Michael Griffiths]

And here are the up to date figures of Canada's support for the war (if anyone's interested)...

http://www.torontostar.ca/NASApp/cs...307&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

Canadians back Chr?tien on war, poll finds
71% approve of decision to stay out


TIM HARPER
OTTAWA BUREAU CHIEF

OTTAWA?Jean Chr?tien's decision to stay out of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq has met with widespread approval in this country and is backed by a majority of respondents everywhere except Alberta, according to a Star poll.

The poll, conducted for the Star and the Montreal newspaper La Presse by EKOS Research Associates, found 71 per cent of those polled backed the decision by the Liberal government, with 27 per cent registering their disapproval.

Although a clear majority of 60 per cent say they object to the military move by U.S. President George W. Bush, 35 per cent of Canadians back him, support that rose during the week and an indication that a significant number of voters in this country back Washington's move as well as Ottawa's decision to stay apart from it.

Chr?tien's Liberal government decided to stay out of the U.S.-led invasion because Washington could not win multilateral authorization for the war at the United Nations. But Canada still has three frigates in the region as part of a war on terrorism, leading some to suggest the government is having it both ways, winning support politically for snubbing the Americans while making some assets available to support the Americans.

Chr?tien's move, announced Monday, sparked a week of heated political debate here with the Prime Minister striving to paint his decision as an independent Canadian move while not criticizing Bush.

That was made more difficult with Wednesday's comments by his natural resources minister, Herb Dhaliwal. He said he felt Bush failed as a statesman and let the world down, remarks he later clarified to indicate they were not a personal criticism of the U.S. president or his administration.

The NDP and the Bloc Qu?b?cois backed Chr?tien, but Canadian Alliance leader Stephen Harper has thrown parliamentary nicety out the window in his attacks on the Liberals, a government he has described as "gutless and juvenile" and one he says has turned its back on Canadian values and traditions.

EKOS interviewed 720 Canadians beginning Monday, after Chr?tien made his announcement and ending Thursday evening, before yesterday's massive bombing of Baghdad and other Iraqi cities by the U.S. It says its results are considered accurate to within 3.7 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.

The poll also found almost unprecedented awareness and interest among Canadians in the war and this country's role.

EKOS president Frank Graves said Canadian sympathy for Bush's position rose during the week, likely because people in this country began to believe he might show restraint and try to force mass Iraqi desertions or a quick surgical strike at Saddam Hussein.

Yesterday's strikes on the Iraqi capital may have ended any rebound Bush was receiving in public opinion in this country, Graves said.

Graves also said part of the Canadian strengthening of support for Bush's position may have been a reaction to what voters perceived to have been some "strident antipathy" toward the Americans from Liberals, including Dhaliwal, Mississauga Centre MP Carolyn Parrish who referred to them as "bastards," and the infamous "moron" comment from Chr?tien's former communications director, Fran?oise Ducros.

EKOS found the greatest support for the Liberal position in Quebec, among women, those who are university educated and who described themselves as Canadian nationalists.

Those most fervently opposed to the Chr?tien position lived in Alberta, were among the country's most affluent and overwhelmingly are Canadian Alliance and Progressive Conservative supporters.

The polar opposite positions in Alberta and Quebec are most striking, Graves said. He added frustration in Alberta may have repercussions in the future because it seems to be constantly offside on national issues, while anti-American sentiment in Quebec was the strongest EKOS has seen in 10 years.

 

[Basstrap]

on a relevant note,
they interviewed three people who moved to canada from the US to gauge their opinion on the war.
They all expressed how moving here impacted their outlook on things. They could now objectively look at the goings on in their country. None of them were for the war.

and this is not me saying this...they said it.
paraphrased..."people in america have a tendency to thing their country can do no wrong"



Just an interesting perspective

 

[Michael Griffiths]

Wanderer:

Once again, the word choice invovled was generalizing. I'm not going to beat this argument to death. If you disagree, I can't change your mind. And generalizing about Canadian sentiment in terms of opposing the war is different than generalizing it in terms of booing the US National Anthem, Wanderer. I mean, give me a break on that one. As for the thread title not being specific enough, again, same argument, one more time. It's pointless to rehash.

And I didn't assume that you don't read other sources. I simply said our media is like night and day -- which it is -- and that the stories you get are generally far different than the ones we get.

I was simply comparing CNN to CBC. It's not like I'm saying all your print media is just as bad as CNN. ABC is much better than CNN too, but that, too, is much different than what we tend to get. It's just that many rely on CNN for world matters, and I wouldn't be, that's all.

There was a documentary on the 5th Estate the other night that exposed the innacuracy of the Patriot Missiles shooting down scud missiles from the Gulf War. Many of the American news reporters were claiming direct hits, and this documentary showed they weren't hits at all. It was blatent mis-information. I don't think that documentary is being shown in the States, is it?

By the way, Craig, you're sounding very high and mighty yourself over there Are you okay? You can e-mail me if you ever want to talk. Amanda has my e-mail addy.