Disney now gives us a black princess

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I don't either; no one suggested it's a conspiracy, or that there's some man sitting in a room somewhere at Disney cackling evilly and rubbing his hands together at the thought of all the kids he's going to make feel bad about themselves. And I can understand cynicism about the fact that businesses will capitalize on who they think their audiences are and what they want to see; I agree with that. But honestly, as much as you've said before about all the negative impact media can have on people, I'm a bit puzzled why you find this one so hard to imagine. If little girls notice that many female characters on TV appear to be half-dressed and behaving in a highly sexualized manner, and you feel that has some influence, then why would little nonwhite girls not notice that the beloved heroines in Disney films tend to be white, and why would that not have some influence too? You don't seem to expect kids to be blind to gender representations in media and appear to have some opinions about that, so why so dismissive of the idea that a pattern of racial representations could have influences as well--both good and bad?
 
redhotswami said:


and when growing up, all we see in the media is a bunch of white people, when we live in communities that are more diverse, then that definitely has an effect.


:up:

From 2004

http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/news/2004-12-15-minority-tv_x.htm

From 2004

http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/news/newsbyid.asp?id=9914

Within the United States, even children perceive these images as negative stereotypes. In a 1998 study conducted on behalf of Children Now, a nonprofit children's advocacy group, interviewers asked twelve hundred American children how often and in what roles do they see their race depicted on television. The results were revealing. Children more often associate positive qualities such as financial and academic success, leadership, and intelligence with White characters, and negative qualities such as lawbreaking, financial hardship, laziness, and goofy behavior with minority characters.

When children were asked about positive qualities, 58% of the children said that they see Whites on television as having a lot of money. Only 8% perceived minority characters as having a lot of money. As for negative qualities, 6% reported seeing White characters breaking the law or the rules compared with 47% of minority characters.

When asked how often they see their race on television, 71% of White children said they see their race depicted very often, compared to only 42% of African- Americans and 22% of Hispanic-Americans. As for who plays the boss, 71% of all children said someone who is White usually plays the role of boss, while 59% said Blacks typically play the criminal. "'You always see black people doing drugs and carrying around drugs, shooting people and stealing things,' one white girl said." Thus, after six decades of African-Americans on television, even children do not perceive this group as being presented in a positive light.

Children Now conducted another study, called Fall Colors: How Diverse is the 1999-2000 TV Season's Prime Time Line-Up? after the controversy in the fall of 1999 over the lack of minority characters on network television. This study analyzed the level of cast diversity on ninety-two prime-time network drama and comedy shows, and was "commissioned in part to provide networks with information regarding a quantification of their usage of minorities in prime-time casts." The findings indicated that the vast majority of characters on network series were White, and while there was a "visible African American presence" on these shows, other racial and ethnic minorities were underrepresented.

Furthermore, of the minority characters portrayed on these shows, very few were main cast members. According to Lois Salisbury, president of Children Now, "Any way you carve it, the more central a character is to a program, the more likely he or she is white." Thus, while the networks seem to have attempted to include some African-Americans, they have not gone far enough. As Salisbury stated, "Children in America tell us that being included in TV is a major signal of acceptance, respect and recognition. The absence of cultural images and characters that reflect them, conversely, is disturbing to kids. It affects their aspirations." . .
--From http://academic.udayton.edu/race/04needs/media02.htm

And here is evidence of some progress for asian actors on television. When I was a kid or even ten years ago, most asians portrayed delivery boys or peasants or it was that dude with the long mustache who kept getting beat up in Die Hard, Lethal Weapon and the A-team......this dude whose name is Al Leong.
al2.jpg


http://www.asiaarts.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=60746

And more good news from a couple of seasons ago. I forgot to mention Survivor as finally realizing that diversity is important after years of having a token black person with the odd hispanic or asian person on the show.

http://www.boston.com/ae/tv/article...time_for_improved_racial_diversity/?page=full

Boy, looks like tough times ahead for white actors.:wink:
 
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yolland said:
I don't either; no one suggested it's a conspiracy, or that there's some man sitting in a room somewhere at Disney cackling evilly and rubbing his hands together at the thought of all the kids he's going to make feel bad about themselves. And I can understand cynicism about the fact that businesses will capitalize on who they think their audiences are and what they want to see; I agree with that. But honestly, as much as you've said before about all the negative impact media can have on people, I'm a bit puzzled why you find this one so hard to imagine. If little girls notice that many female characters on TV appear to be half-dressed and behaving in a highly sexualized manner, and you feel that has some influence, then why would little nonwhite girls not notice that the beloved heroines in Disney films tend to be white, and why would that not have some influence too? You don't seem to expect kids to be blind to gender representations in media and appear to have some opinions about that, so why so dismissive of the idea that a pattern of racial representations could have influences as well--both good and bad?

I don't equate behavior with race. I don't take my kids to "highly sexualized" movies. But I would take them to kid friendly story with a black princess.
 
I generally think that multi-cultural societies are, almost by definition, failed societies.

The United States is probably the only example of a reasonably successful multicultural society in the world today.
 
financeguy said:

The United States is probably the only example of a reasonably successful multicultural society in the world today.

Look north. :wink:

It is a VERY different vibe in Canada. Our multiculturalism is a source of pride.
 
financeguy said:



Watch MTV recently?

by saying "we" i was including myself, which meant that i was referring to my childhood and what I experienced. "recently" would include the current MTV and the new Disney Black Princess. So I'm not sure what you're getting at with this post.
 
AEON said:


I don't equate behavior with race. I don't take my kids to "highly sexualized" movies. But I would take them to kid friendly story with a black princess.

interviewers asked twelve hundred American children how often and in what roles do they see their race depicted on television. The results were revealing. Children more often associate positive qualities such as financial and academic success, leadership, and intelligence with White characters, and negative qualities such as lawbreaking, financial hardship, laziness, and goofy behavior with minority characters.

When children were asked about positive qualities, 58% of the children said that they see Whites on television as having a lot of money. Only 8% perceived minority characters as having a lot of money. As for negative qualities, 6% reported seeing White characters breaking the law or the rules compared with 47% of minority characters.

When asked how often they see their race on television, 71% of White children said they see their race depicted very often, compared to only 42% of African- Americans and 22% of Hispanic-Americans. As for who plays the boss, 71% of all children said someone who is White usually plays the role of boss, while 59% said Blacks typically play the criminal. "'You always see black people doing drugs and carrying around drugs, shooting people and stealing things,' one white girl said." Thus, after six decades of African-Americans on television, even children do not perceive this group as being presented in a positive light.

Is there anything in this world that could make it clear that you simply are not getting what this really is about?

It's not about you, nor your children, but about the whole society. And overall it's lacking this distinction you make, and your children might have learned to make.
 
Vincent Vega said:




Is there anything in this world that could make it clear that you simply are not getting what this really is about?

It's not about you, nor your children, but about the whole society. And overall it's lacking this distinction you make, and your children might have learned to make.

I think we need more positive movies in general - so this is sort of inline with my thinking already.

However, I don't celebrate when there is a "good" black guy on screen - I simply don't care. A hero is a hero. A good story is a good story.

As a whole, Western Civilization in constantly under attack in our society. My children will learn not to be ashamed of their heritage, as well as learn not to repeat some of the same mistakes. This will happen despite the movies, TV, and "white guilt" professors. They will also learn that every human is created equal - an idea that is currently the foundation of Western Civilization.
 
AEON said:


I think we need more positive movies in general - so this is sort of inline with my thinking already.

However, I don't celebrate when there is a "good" black guy on screen - I simply don't care. A hero is a hero. A good story is a good story.

As a whole, Western Civilization in constantly under attack in our society. My children will learn not to be ashamed of their heritage, as well as learn not to repeat some of the same mistakes. This will happen despite the movies, TV, and "white guilt" professors. They will also learn that every human is created equal - an idea that is currently the foundation of Western Civilization.

Western Civilization is constantly under attack, by whom? Redhotswami and myself are part of Western Civilization, the 30-35% of the population in North America who are minorities are part of Western Civilization.

And this issue isn't about how a white person feels watching entertainment as involves more than just film and television. Good for you that you say you don't care about the ethnicity of the main character of the film. But the people who are being affected by the misrepresentation do feel the social, emotional and psychological effects of this. Many institutions have already dealt with the issue of race like professional sports, the workplace, and even the modelling world. The NFL was pretty much shamed into hiring black coaches a few years back. I'm certain most people had no idea that the hiring of black coaches was an issue but black coaches certainly did.

"White guilt"? This isn't about white guilt, it's about equality and fair representation. It's not about positive films, it's about showing the world, not just America, as it really is. It took decades before the appearance of an openly gay main character on tv, huge step forward. I think we should see more people with disabilities and less perfect people in the media. Dove Canada has received great acclaim for a series of beauty ads using real women who aren't model thin or 17 yr olds.

And all people aren't created equal. It's a nice concept but where you are born determines the life you will have. Watch the Miniature Earth again to see the how equal everyone is. Some numbers have probably changed a little like people connected to the internet but the gist of it is obvious. A child born in a refugee camp in Darfur is not equal to a child born in San Diego.

Like Vincent suggested this isn't about you, it's about the big picture. No one is asking anyone to be ashamed of their heritage. I don't see how the issues relate. This is not a threat to "white" culture. The make up of the population should be reflected in representations of society and it is slowly happening.
 
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AEON said:


I think we need more positive movies in general - so this is sort of inline with my thinking already.

However, I don't celebrate when there is a "good" black guy on screen - I simply don't care. A hero is a hero. A good story is a good story.

As a whole, Western Civilization in constantly under attack in our society. My children will learn not to be ashamed of their heritage, as well as learn not to repeat some of the same mistakes. This will happen despite the movies, TV, and "white guilt" professors. They will also learn that every human is created equal - an idea that is currently the foundation of Western Civilization.

:banghead: You still aren't getting it. Empathy isn't one of your strong points is it?
 
AEON said:

As a whole, Western Civilization in constantly under attack in our society.

You have some kind of weird hang up about this.
 
AEON said:

As a whole, Western Civilization in constantly under attack in our society. My children will learn not to be ashamed of their heritage, as well as learn not to repeat some of the same mistakes. This will happen despite the movies, TV, and "white guilt" professors. They will also learn that every human is created equal - an idea that is currently the foundation of Western Civilization.

I didn't realise that only white people are considered western. :huh:

I also suspect you would have a very different opinion of the race of characters on tv and in movies if you were a race other than caucasian. I also think you would be very uncomfortable if you and your children saw very few causasian actors in tv and in movies, and if most of the ones you did seee were in token or bad guy roles. As it is (and based on your posts), I don't think you have developed the ability to see (or at least try to see) beyond your own skin.
 
AEON said:


I think we need more positive movies in general - so this is sort of inline with my thinking already.

However, I don't celebrate when there is a "good" black guy on screen - I simply don't care.

Well, how very nice for you. You know I hear this type of sentiment all the time and it's just bull. It's a sentiment that says maybe if I just pretend racism doesn't exist it will go away--and the last thing I need some militant minorities reminding me that it hasnt' gone away. It's a sentiment that says if it's not important to me it shouldn't be important to anyone. You may think your so-called color blindness is contributing to a more equitable society, but I've got news for you. It's not. If you really want to see a society where race doesn't matter, you've got to first recognize where it still does. And I'm telling you: Seeing a "good" black guy on screen is still the exception rather than the rule. And that's not right.

And in the quote below you make it crystal clear that you CAN imagine what it means to see "your" culture not represented (though never mind that it's already been pointed out that Western culture hardly equals white):

AEON said:

As a whole, Western Civilization in constantly under attack in our society. My children will learn not to be ashamed of their heritage,
 
financeguy said:



Watch MTV recently?

MTV is part of the fucking problem, not the solution.

How many of those black men and women would you consider role models for your children?

A lot ( but not all of course) of what's happening in black pop culture (which is eagerly being consumed and aped by white as well as black youth) is absolutely cancerous to black America.
 
financeguy said:
I generally think that multi-cultural societies are, almost by definition, failed societies.

The United States is probably the only example of a reasonably successful multicultural society in the world today.

Hmmm. I just got back from Singapore, a nation with four major ethnic groups--though Chinese is by far the largest--and four official languages. As one of the safest, cleanest, and most prosperous countries on the planet, they seem to be doing fine.

Yeah, they're really a "failed society." :|
 
Diemen said:
Y'all don't know what it's like, being male, middle-class and white.

:D

. . .I'm rockin' the suburbs :rockon:

Thanks for the smile. This is a topic where it's hard for me to stay my even-keeled, rationale self.

:mad: :banghead: :combust:
 
financeguy said:
I generally think that multi-cultural societies are, almost by definition, failed societies.


And you know what elses pisses me off about this bullshit idea? What it says about those of us who come from multicultural backgrounds? Are we "failures" as well? Will my children have no place in the world because "multi-cultural societies are almost be defintion failed societies?"

Let's look at a the multi-cultural society on the micro level. On my mom's side (the family I grew up with), my grandmother is Chinese, my grandfather half-black, half-white. Every single one of their four children married people of different ethnic backgrounds--when my family gets together every summer there are Asian, black, white, and Lebanese people who are related by blood.

I don't consider my family a failure by a long stretch.

But where would they fit into your version of a "successful society?"
 
maycocksean said:
But where would they fit into your version of a "successful society?"

Sean, your family's mere existence is part of the "attack on Western civilization". Especially if you get all uppity and start asking to be represented in the mass media of the society in which you belong and contribute to. :rolleyes:

You know, what bothers me most about this kind of language is that it is eerily similar to the code words used by white supremacists. "western civilization" is just a PC way to indicate we're talking about white folk. :|
 
sulawesigirl4 said:


You know, what bothers me most about this kind of language is that it is eerily similar to the code words used by white supremacists. "western civilization" is just a PC way to indicate we're talking about white folk. :|

Yep.
 
"western civilization" is just a PC way to indicate we're talking about white folk.

That, of coarse, is just patently absurd.

Are the curators of the Smithsonian Institute just being PC with their Origins Of Western Culture exhibit?

When "sane" people use the phrase "Western civilization" they are referring to a set of common:
Military alliances
Philosophies
Forms of worship
Forms of democratic government
Forms of free-market economies
Forms of law
Language
Art
Literature
Architecture
Industry
Medicine
To name a few.

While maybe traditionally thought of as being European derived, today's West has both; successfully assimilated immigrants from non-Western countries, and, grown to include whole cultures as diverse as Japan, Israel, and much of Latin America.

If you think "Western Civilization" is "code" and not something worth intellectually defending...you either live in Manhattan or Hollywood...or you need to travel more.
 
financeguy said:
I generally think that multi-cultural societies are, almost by definition, failed societies.

May I ask for examples of these "failed multicultural societies"? I'd be interested in this before I try to formulate a response.
 
INDY500 said:


That, of coarse, is just patently absurd.

Not if taken in the context of the post she was referring to. Go back and read Aeon's original post in which he suggested that being glad there is a black princess over at Disney is tantamount to an attack on western civilization and his children's heritage. I don't think Sula (and I know I don't) meant to suggest that "Western civ" IS code for "white" just that Aeon was using the term in that way.

I think you're description below is pretty accurate, and I would also agree that is the definition used by "sane" people, but that's not what Aeon was implying.

INDY500 said:

When "sane" people use the phrase "Western civilization" they are referring to a set of common:
Military alliances
Philosophies
Forms of worship
Forms of democratic government
Forms of free-market economies
Forms of law
Language
Art
Literature
Architecture
Industry
Medicine
To name a few.

While maybe traditionally thought of as being European derived, today's West has both; successfully assimilated immigrants from non-Western countries, and, grown to include whole cultures as diverse as Japan, Israel, and much of Latin America.

I wouldn't go so far is to say that Japan now reflects "western" culture. It's still pretty darn eastern as far as I can tell. And I was there just last week. Unless of course you are equating "western culture" with technological advancement and economic prosperity.

I'd also add that Western culture hardly needs "defending." It's hardly under threat of annihliation. If anything it is more powerful, influential, and pervasive than ever. Which I'm not saying is a bad--or good--thing. It just is.
 
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