Demonic Possession, is it real or group hysteria?

The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

Is Demonic Possession real or group hysteria?

  • Absolutely real

    Votes: 10 18.9%
  • Probably real

    Votes: 2 3.8%
  • It's real, but you have to invite evil influences into your life

    Votes: 8 15.1%
  • No, not real; anyone claiming this is a mental case.

    Votes: 28 52.8%
  • There is a good force and a bad force in our universe-a person has to decide which force they choose

    Votes: 2 3.8%
  • diamondbruno#9, do you have your own church and gospel?

    Votes: 3 5.7%
  • diamond you always make the best threads; cutting edge, pushing the intellectual and religious envel

    Votes: 6 11.3%

  • Total voters
    53
  • Poll closed .
diamond said:


You have to choose who you want to invite eventually.

And God didn't create us to recluses in my view from what I've read.

dbs

No one said anything about a recluse, just drop that idea. Just get that out of your mind.

You keep saying we have to choose who we invite? Why? A man grew up, was a good man, has a good family, he's a faithful husband and great father, put his family before himself.

Never went to church, in fact doesn't know anything about religion except the watered down versions you may hear during a holiday, but he also never did an evil deed in his life.

Who did he invite? :shrug:
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


No one said anything about a recluse, just drop that idea. Just get that out of your mind.

You keep saying we have to choose who we invite? Why? A man grew up, was a good man, has a good family, he's a faithful husband and great father, put his family before himself.

Never went to church, in fact doesn't know anything about religion except the watered down versions you may hear during a holiday, but he also never did an evil deed in his life.

Who did he invite? :shrug:



God.
because all good things come from God, we as humans just don't realize it.

By his actions he chose God internally.

And not to split hairs, if you live next door to ppl on your left or right and never speak or interact with them, most would consider that a recluse, still a good person though.

:)

dbs
 
diamond said:




God.
because all good things come from God, we as humans just don't realize it.

By his actions he chose God internally.

And not to split hairs, if you live next door to ppl on your left or right and never speak or interact with them, most would consider that a recluse, still a good person though.

:)

dbs

Not everywhere, some peoples neighbors are miles away, some live in busy urban areas and have different schedules...

So because he was good, he somehow invited God, but without knowing? Ok, then so why do I always hear: "Being good is not enough, you have to invite Jesus Christ in to your heart and ask him to be your saviour in order to be saved."?

I'm just curious. I agree for the most part with "by his actions he chose God internally", but I always hear "that's not enough" from so many god-fearing people.
 
diamond said:

God.
because all good things come from God, we as humans just don't realize it.

By his actions he chose God internally.

And not to split hairs, if you live next door to ppl on your left or right and never speak or interact with them, most would consider that a recluse, still a good person though.

:)

dbs
This is exactly the mentality that makes the concept of God distasteful to me, all the bad elements of humanity are the product of human choice yet on those occasions where people choose to do good the credit is appropriated to the divine dictator; I think that it is anti-human, I think that the picture of human behaviour it paints is infantile.

Placing humanity in it's rightful place in the animal kingdom as a uniquely social animal liberates us from such bad thinking, yields explanations for why people have the capacity for empathy and to do good by others and can explain the nasty habits such as creating ingroups and outgroups, racism and violence. It can explain both sides of the coin with one explanation; the model that you put forth demands two explanations (God does Good, Satan does Evil) and even then evil still poses a problem. Darwinism doesn't imply a cruelly individualistic model for human behaviour as believers want it to (as the big source of opposition to evolution both today and in the 19th Century when the creationists were intelligent and learned men is that by removing divine creation mankind looses morality).

People let their morality inform what they consider good religion a lot more than they let religion inform what they consider good morality. The fact that infidels and pagans also have a "moral compass" without any exposure to this cruel Judeo-Christian God attests to it being a universal human character spread in our DNA not imbued by a creator.
 
Last edited:
diamond said:


You have to choose who you want to invite eventually.

And God didn't create us to recluses in my view from what I've read.

dbs
No, our tribal ancestors couldn't afford to be recluses or they would either die or fail to mate, and the people today who are unable to empathise (sociopaths) represent what happens when the brain develops in the "wrong" way (everything is conditional; being a sociopath can be advantageous under certain conditions).

If God creates us to have love and compassion but we fall short of that because of free will thats fine, but because there are people walking about who can't do those things because of the way their brains work doesn't that mean God is either negligent (just like all those miscarriges and birth defects) or malevolent (having a hand in creating Ted Bundy's and Jeffrey Dahmer's).

This hits directly at the topic of this thread, the idea that evil actions are influenced by an outside demonic actor versus a component of human behaviour.

On the plus side insistence on demonic possession does make it so much easier to ridicule Christians.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:




I'm just curious. I agree for the most part with "by his actions he chose God internally", but I always hear "that's not enough" from so many god-fearing people.

I think where my views differ from orthodox Christianity is God is to NOT be feared. Since God is love, or that is his main attribute he won't force us to serve him. Satan on the other hand wants us to be a slave to our own addictions and be self centered and stingy with our time, talent and resources.

Another point is only you and God know if your love for your fellow man is genuine. For those that think church attendance is mandatory, that God keeps a score card etc this is a wrong notion, a person carries their faith with them-it isn't in a church building.

More to the point from what I read, God and you together will one day look and review at what you did with your time on earth, were you kind to the beggar that you saw on the street?
Did you stop and help the person who had a flat tire? Did you visit the sick and afflicted? What did you do with the time that God granted you?

You and God will be happy about the good things that you did, and sad with the selfish things you did-from what I've read. Also he won't judge us as harshly as we think, it will be expalined that all these activities that we were thrust into-were for our learning experience.

dbs
 
Last edited:
A_Wanderer said:
Ted Bundy's and Jeffrey Dahmer's).

.

Ted Bundy, before he died acknowledged that he believed that there was an evil force and a good force in the universe- and that he was a porn addict.


Jeffery Dahmer didn't live as long as Bundy to offer up an assesment of this nature.

Serial killers' brains after their executions have been examined by forensic pathologists and medical doctors and from what I've read they're no different from a law abiding citizens.

It's all about choice my friend.

dbs
 
diamond said:

When a person feels the Holy Spirit, that person usually feels warm happy and fuzzy and perhaps peaceful inside; like you get doing Yoga, praying or meditating sometimes.

I've actually experience feelings like this (yes, in yoga class) but much more intense & overwhelming than just a fuzzy feeling :)


diamond said:

A person feeling an uninvited feeling of Satan or bad spirit will usually feel a coldness around them and an oppressive feeling-based on what I've read.

And there's been quite a few times where I have experienced this before too (which probably sounds strange to alot of people).

I just put it down to being more of an energy/vibration sponge than anything (ie: the presence of God/Satan) although in the first case an ex-partners strict Baptists parents tried to prove me otherwise :wink:

Interesting :hmm:
 
I think baptists and fundalmenatalists are afraid of yoga, you poor kid.
;)
women i think by nature are more intuitively spiritual..

all i can tell you is from what i've read and on rare occasions felt, an evil enity feels tangible and cold.

also when you feel bad energy coming from someone, i think there's a reason for it, and the person with the bad energy may not even realize that he is a carrier of it.

dbs
 
VintagePunk said:


I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here,

That he can masquerade and appear as somebody he's not, even making some people that he doesn't exist-remember he's brilliant.

dbs
 
diamond said:


That he can masquerade and appear as somebody he's not, even making some people that he doesn't exist-remember he's brilliant.

dbs

Or...people could be believing in a false entity, attributing evil to "him" when it's merely a case of humans exercising their free will, or in some cases, mental illness.

Honestly, I categorize the devil with fairies, unicorns, UFO's, and their ilk. A man-made fantasy employed to instill fear into humans, and keep them in line.
 
VintagePunk said:




. A man-made fantasy employed to instill fear into humans, and keep them in line.

True about the mental illness part we agree.
I think there can be a combination of both also.


Vintage Punk have you ever read this book?

the-screwtape-letters-csl.jpg


It was written by a brilliant educated man and former athetist, turned believer and rings true with many people.

If you haven't it's a great read.

dbs
 
deep said:
people should have the right to believe whatever they want

regardless of the lack of validity of those beliefs



pushing those views on others
or wanting them validated by governments or laws is where the line must be drawn

I agree.
 
Yes, I've actually read a great deal of Lewis' work, both fiction and non-fiction. He's a great writer and an interesting philosopher.

I haven't come to have these views in an uninformed way. In fact, the more I learn, the stronger they become. :)
 
diamond said:


True about the mental illness part we agree.
I think there can be a combination of both also.


Vintage Punk have you ever read this book?

the-screwtape-letters-csl.jpg


It was written by a brilliant educated man and former athetist, turned believer and rings true with many people.

If you haven't it's a great read.

dbs

We had that in the library.
 
diamond said:
You seem very educated.
:)

Thanks. It's all relative. Like Bono said, "the more you see, the less you know." How true. The more you learn sometimes, the more you realize how much more there is to learn.

I've enjoyed reading your point of view, as well. I'm glad that this thread has remained a civil exchange of ideas and viewpoints, and has not denigrated into insults, as discussions of religious matters often do when you have people with opposing viewpoints discussing. :)
 
VintagePunk said:


Thanks. It's all relative. Like Bono said, "the more you see, the less you know." How true. The more you learn sometimes, the more you realize how much more there is to learn.


Bono also said this about Christ and his divine nature:

"Look, the secular response to the Christ story always goes like this: He was a great prophet, obviously a very interesting guy, had a lot to say along the lines of other great prophets, be they Elijah, Muhammad, Buddha, or Confucius. But actually Christ doesn't allow you that. He doesn't let you off that hook. Christ says, No. I'm not saying I'm a teacher, don't call me teacher. I'm not saying I'm a prophet. I'm saying: 'I'm the Messiah....' "

Bono believes in Christ, His divine nature and it appears that Bono doesn't like to overly emphasize the devil nor his existence-which is wise.

dbs
 
Last edited:
diamond said:




God.
because all good things come from God, we as humans just don't realize it.

By his actions he chose God internally.

And not to split hairs, if you live next door to ppl on your left or right and never speak or interact with them, most would consider that a recluse, still a good person though.

:)

dbs

So he comes uninvited.
 
Based on a person actions, thinking and activities dictates the God he has chosen to serve whether it be conscious or unconscious.

dbs
 
Surely all this god talk is covering people ignorance, because they dont really know the answers to why we are here and what created the universe.


If a god does a exist, he be mortified people are using his name to promote some sort of personal agenda ( im staring at you the Vatican ).
 
For me there is no such thing. Should it exist, i.e. he, he should make damn sure to knock and asking for permission.
 
A_Wanderer said:
Your overlooking biology, a stimulus acting upon a receptor cell is where sensations come from. How the mind processes that information is what defines the experience - a good bit of evidence for this is how ones experiences can be altered chemically, drugs wouldn't work on an immaterial soul or consciousness.

Partially true, we can never really know reality just, to use Kant's theory, experience phenomenons -- filtered through our own limited senses and familiarity. Drugs simply fool our brain into misreading information, a trick which can be accomplished with an optical illusion just as easily. That an artificial intelligence would never seek out or find pleasure in such temporary "confusion" only proves my point.
Here is where neurology is going to answer a question of philosophy, the process of decision making and 'free will' is entering the domain of science, a proper theory of mind will be useful to those ends.
If what you say is true, I don't see why humans should be any different than an automatic coffeemaker as far as being able to exert free will. If the human brain is exclusively physical, why should a bundle of neurons in a skull be any more capable of rebelling against DNA programming than a microchip against it's?
Reduce our greatest thoughts and deepest desires to volts and grams if you choose.
False statement, whether a computer could simulate a human mind or an equivalent intelligence is not neccessarily impossible - the brain is an organic computer.
A organic computer whose atoms are constantly being replaced. You don't have the "same" brain you had as a child, yet you retain memories, traits and a feeling of being the "same" person. How can the atoms change but the thoughts remain?
A moral code is built on the gut instincts of the human animal, it is not set to an absolute universal standard but the advantageous behaviours to keep the tribe going (murdering kin is bad, raping kin is bad, deceiving kin is bad). A humane code of ethics built around mutual consent as sentient beings engaged in a society is more applicable but it has no actual meaning to the universe.
Without an external standard; truth, right and wrong are all subjective. How then do you write a moral code that is binding on others if they choose not to acknowledge said code?
By what authority unless a universal authority?

The minds big bang is a tricky subject, but the way that our homonid genes are used is what makes us human, tricky questions are intensive; and what glimmers of answers there are today point to a material cause in human biology; a driving factor seems to be society and specifically competition for mates.
I think you will find it hard to prove that, by natural selection alone, a gene can evolve that benefits a large population to the disadvantage of the individual.
Free will is not a certainty, intelligence is not unique to humanity (in the broad sense - as humans are most adept)

One constant in the science fiction of the past 100 years is the extent to which the humanization of artificial intelligence has been wrongly predicted. From Metropolis to the androids of Westworld to 2001's HAL (to name a few), they have all confused knowledge and logic with the uniquely human faculties of understanding and reasoning.
 
A_Wanderer said:

On the plus side insistence on demonic possession does make it so much easier to ridicule Christians.

It's just as easy to ridicule modern psychiatry as scientific medicine. My guess is demonic possession will become recognized as an actual illness shortly after some drug company starts marketing a "cure."

Beelzerub, apply directly to the soul.
Beelzerub, apply directly to the soul.
 
Dismissing Freudian thinking as unscientific pseudoscience is exactly what happened, that does not affirm demonic possession as a reasonably plausible explanation for human behaviour. Psychology on the other hand is opening up that doorway, and it ridiculing it is not the same as ridiculing people who believe that outside actors invade and control human behaviour (at least ones that aren't actual parasites that exist in the real world).

Optical illusions are not the same as hallucinations, but the fact that the processing of information is altered chemically validates the idea that the mind is material. Pushing it further into the level of ego death or the K-hole should highlight that there is no duality between conciousness and the material brain; they are one and the same.

Your rebuttal has the implicit assumptions about what constitutes an artificial intelligence and what sort of reward system it may engage in. You assume that an artificial intelligence would be incapable of finding gratification or pleasure - something that drugs do for people. That an artificial intelligence would be a calculator without the capacity for some form of morality is an assumption.

That is important, as the universe doesn't care about you or morality in general. But moral behaviour is advantageous for a social animal. We are wired for it, but when we behave in general there is the acceptance of rules so we can engage with society. They are conditions of entry, if you can't abide by them then the society will exclude you (banishment and incarceration being two examples). That they are subjective does not make them meaningless, that they are not universal does not mean that we should act as we please. I enjoy the benefits of society, I have a general aversion to rape and murdering people on the street and I get along fine. The argument that civil society and good behaviour only exist because of God seems to have the corollary that in the inexistence of God would destroy society and people would have no cause to be good. I very much hope that most God fearing Christians could engage in society without God telling them to be good . Moral codes are the products of societies, they are not a function of the universe, any sentience that wants to engage with others in a "society" will accept and comply by mutually agreed rules of behaviour even though they are not handed down from God.

As for evolving a society tribal structures benefit members, the odds of survival improve by being part of a tribe versus being a loner, the genes that you have will be pretty common among your kin, tribes are composed of related individuals so things that are to the benefit of the tribe are to the benefit of common genetic material. Competition within a tribal structure demands power, that demands intelligence (to rise to the top, to understand the motivations and goings on of others, to get mates) and there is a constant pressure that means the smarter had more kids and that effect was compounded over tens of thousands of years.
 
Last edited:
Vincent Vega said:
For me there is no such thing. Should it exist, i.e. he, he should make damn sure to knock and asking for permission.

Rev. 3:23 -- Jesus says, "Behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone opens the door, I will go in to eat with him, and he with me."

Demons, unfortunately, are rarely as polite.
 
Back
Top Bottom