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View Poll Results: Is Demonic Possession real or group hysteria?
Absolutely real 10 18.87%
Probably real 2 3.77%
It's real, but you have to invite evil influences into your life 8 15.09%
No, not real; anyone claiming this is a mental case. 28 52.83%
There is a good force and a bad force in our universe-a person has to decide which force they choose to serve 2 3.77%
diamondbruno#9, do you have your own church and gospel? 3 5.66%
diamond you always make the best threads; cutting edge, pushing the intellectual and religious envelope; Bravo 6 11.32%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 03-16-2008, 08:07 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Anecdotal evidence is worthless, the common elements of near death experiences (detatchment, moving towards a light etc.) having affinities to experiences produced by an oxygen deprived brain points to a material cause with a nonetheless fascinating insight into the workings of the mind.



It's a fools game to try to marry religious faith to real world phenomena, that sort of God of the gaps is inevitably edged out by the natural explanation.

That's a lazy way man's out.
More and more empirical evidence surfaces each day.

Demonic possession is real, the same with mental illness; sometimes people have both.

Spiritual denial trumps all of them though, but God allows this, it's part of His plan. He wont intercede into man exercising their own free will; unless you ask him-and if it's his will he will incercede to give a person guidance, protection or personal revelation.

In the meantime keep on continuing to search for your "missing link" and when you come up empty-we'll still be here.



God bless.



dbs
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Old 03-16-2008, 10:31 AM   #142
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Originally posted by diamond




The after life is much larger than Earth. Remember that 3 billion ppl live on Earth now; an estimated 6 billion have lived on Earth since it's inception or creation.

dbs
Earth has approximately 6,671,226,000 human inhabitants.

I think China,India and Brazil together hit 3 billion+.
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Old 03-16-2008, 10:40 AM   #143
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Originally posted by vaz02


Earth has approximately 6,671,226,000 human inhabitants.

I think China,India and Brazil together hit 3 billion+.
my bad, i will have to look into it.

my point is the afterlife place is much larger than earth right now when you take into the account of the total human race living here since it's creation.

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Old 03-16-2008, 10:57 AM   #144
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I just find it really hard to believe there is some sort of afterlife or paradise after death, it most certainly wouldnt be my idea of paradise sharing a room with Hitler or the boy that stole my apple when i was 4.

So in your idea of Paradise are their pets there ? buildings ? what time zone is it ? what is the weather like ? does time exist ? can i travel by plane to get to destinations ? is it like a dream ? is it even like the Matrix ?

So many questions.
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Old 03-16-2008, 12:35 PM   #145
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Originally posted by vaz02
I just find it really hard to believe there is some sort of afterlife or paradise after death, it most certainly wouldnt be my idea of paradise sharing a room with Hitler or the boy that stole my apple when i was 4.

So in your idea of Paradise are their pets there ? buildings ? what time zone is it ? what is the weather like ? does time exist ? can i travel by plane to get to destinations ? is it like a dream ? is it even like the Matrix ?

So many questions.
Yes, so many questions, and I don't have the answrs, but from what ppl who've been there the consenus is this:

Hilter and an innocent child would be in 2 different spheres.

It's more like the matrix.
One language is employed and it's done usually telepathically.

Pets often times greet their owners once they arrive.

Time doesot exist at all, nor does competition nor class envy or struggle; it's paradise.

You travel by thinking where you want to go and there is an order there, it's not chaotic.

If it's God's will you're allowed to assist close friends and relatives who are grieving your loss who are still living on Earth.

That's all I have right now.

dbs
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Old 03-16-2008, 01:13 PM   #146
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer

Placing a supernatural cause is problematic to me, a big reason is that I feel it implies a mind-body dualism that doesn't fit in with my view of the world (consciousness is a product of biology, not an element separate from the brain).
There are problems with such reductionism.

Can you explain the subjective experience of sensation (opposed to the objective sensing of a thermometer or photocell) using only the materialistic laws of chemistry and physics.

Define free will mathematically as either compulsive "law" or "random" illogicalness.

Explain why a computer can be built to reason but that it could never understand as a man can.

Write a moral code without eternal absolute standards.

And finally can you demystify how this all came about, how unconsciousness evolved into self-consciousness.

Don't get me wrong, science should be materialistic in it's approach, but maybe scientific truth is not the whole truth.
Maybe free will and rational intellect are spiritual faculties...the soul of a man
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Old 03-16-2008, 02:03 PM   #147
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Originally posted by melon


Presuming that NDEs are truly supernatural experiences (and a good part of me hopes that they are), how does one reconcile the unorthodox "truths" one garnishes from them?

I've read a few of their case studies before. One NDE, in particular, was quite detailed, and argued that "God" was, essentially, present in every religion on Earth, Christian and non-Christian alike, and that, upon one's death, He merely shows Himself to you in the way you'd recognize Him. If you're expecting a Christian Heaven, that's what you get. If you're expecting something Buddhist, you'd get that instead. And he argued that hell did exist for many souls; it was a self-imposed place of torment that they would send themselves to, out of shame and fear of facing God--and a state that they could just as easily renounce, thus being free to be with God in the end.

Not every NDE out there plays a consistent message; this could be an explanation as to why--again, presuming that they are supernatural. I am quite intrigued, though, if it were a scientific phenomenon and merely a figment of one's imagination, I often wonder why so many people "dream" of their own afterlife.
interesting. so what would an atheist see?
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Old 03-16-2008, 02:05 PM   #148
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Originally posted by diamond


Yes, so many questions, and I don't have the answrs, but from what ppl who've been there the consenus is this:

Hilter and an innocent child would be in 2 different spheres.

It's more like the matrix.
One language is employed and it's done usually telepathically.

Pets often times greet their owners once they arrive.

Time doesot exist at all, nor does competition nor class envy or struggle; it's paradise.

You travel by thinking where you want to go and there is an order there, it's not chaotic.

If it's God's will you're allowed to assist close friends and relatives who are grieving your loss who are still living on Earth.

That's all I have right now.

dbs
Of course there is no proof to support this but it sounds quite good.

Out of curosity, Hitler loved pets so would his pets join him in this other sphere ?

Im fascinated by this afterlife stuff, i loved reading about it when i studied the Egyptians and Vikings a few years back.
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Old 03-16-2008, 02:55 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally posted by vaz02


Of course there is no proof to support this but it sounds quite good.

Out of curosity, Hitler loved pets so would his pets join him in this other sphere ?

Im fascinated by this afterlife stuff, i loved reading about it when i studied the Egyptians and Vikings a few years back.
in certain spheres in the afterlife-the good ones (paradise) people are reunited with loved ones, family friends and sometimes pets-from what i've read.

in hellish spheres you recognize no one, are tormented there. Interestingly also from the experiences that I've read about, there are no children in the hellish spheres (children can't sin) and I don't think you'd find your pets there-since you don't recognize any friends or family or loved ones.


dbs
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Old 03-16-2008, 03:07 PM   #150
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Originally posted by diamond




i Interestingly also from the experiences that I've read about, there are no children in the hellish spheres (children can't sin) and I don't think you'd find your pets there-since you don't recognize any friends or family or loved ones.


dbs
What age would you class a child though ?

In England a few years ago a kid called James Bulger was murdered by two 10 year olds, he was savaegly beaten. Before they left him, the boys laid Bulger across the railway tracks and weighted his head down with rubble, in hopes that a passing train would hit him and make his death appear to be an accident.

That sounds like a sin to me.

How about those who have a mental age of a child, would those be counted as children ?
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Old 03-16-2008, 03:16 PM   #151
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Only God would know who has reached an age of accountablity.

And only God knows the whole story; how these 10 year olds were raised etc.

I remember hearing about that story and others like that; it makes one weep inside.

dbs
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Old 03-16-2008, 07:27 PM   #152
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Originally posted by INDY500
[B]

There are problems with such reductionism.

Can you explain the subjective experience of sensation (opposed to the objective sensing of a thermometer or photocell) using only the materialistic laws of chemistry and physics.
Your overlooking biology, a stimulus acting upon a receptor cell is where sensations come from. How the mind processes that information is what defines the experience - a good bit of evidence for this is how ones experiences can be altered chemically, drugs wouldn't work on an immaterial soul or consciousness.

Quote:
Define free will mathematically as either compulsive "law" or "random" illogicalness.
Here is where neurology is going to answer a question of philosophy, the process of decision making and 'free will' is entering the domain of science, a proper theory of mind will be useful to those ends.

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Explain why a computer can be built to reason but that it could never understand as a man can.
False statement, whether a computer could simulate a human mind or an equivalent intelligence is not neccessarily impossible - the brain is an organic computer.

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Write a moral code without eternal absolute standards.
A moral code is built on the gut instincts of the human animal, it is not set to an absolute universal standard but the advantageous behaviours to keep the tribe going (murdering kin is bad, raping kin is bad, deceiving kin is bad). A humane code of ethics built around mutual consent as sentient beings engaged in a society is more applicable but it has no actual meaning to the universe. No matter how much people may want God to punish people that do them wrong it isn't going to happen, and lying to yourselves cannot make it the case.

Quote:
And finally can you demystify how this all came about, how unconsciousness evolved into self-consciousness.
The minds big bang is a tricky subject, but the way that our homonid genes are used is what makes us human, tricky questions are intensive; and what glimmers of answers there are today point to a material cause in human biology; a driving factor seems to be society and specifically competition for mates.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong, science should be materialistic in it's approach, but maybe scientific truth is not the whole truth.
Maybe free will and rational intellect are spiritual faculties...the soul of a man
Free will is not a certainty, intelligence is not unique to humanity (in the broad sense - as humans are most adept) and even if we feel that there should be some universal goalpost or somebody out there it doesn't make it the case.
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Old 03-16-2008, 07:33 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


That's a lazy way man's out.
More and more empirical evidence surfaces each day.

Demonic possession is real, the same with mental illness; sometimes people have both.

Spiritual denial trumps all of them though, but God allows this, it's part of His plan. He wont intercede into man exercising their own free will; unless you ask him-and if it's his will he will incercede to give a person guidance, protection or personal revelation.

In the meantime keep on continuing to search for your "missing link" and when you come up empty-we'll still be here.



God bless.



dbs
We find new missing likes like Tiktaalik or Ambulocetus to add to the pile and they just get ignored. Those fossils are empirical evidence of transitional forms - you haven't quantified what a demon is, their life cycles, their biology, how they control a mind, how they infect a mind, how exorcism works etc. The facts that people can behave in strange ways is better explained by the theory of mental illness than by the demon hypothesis.
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Old 03-17-2008, 04:44 PM   #154
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hey, isn't that devil picture from an episode of Doctor Who? Seems like I just saw that a few weeks ago.
Yes, that is from an episoded called "Satan Pit" - an interesting take on the possibility of God/Devil.

As for Diamond's thread, I do believe in a spiritual side. I've personally encountered too many things that as a scientist, I cannot explain. This doesn't have me running for God as the explanation, but it does allow me to consider that there is a higher power and that we may exist in another form other than our presence on earth. Again, not saying I believe it, but I am open to the possibility. :-)
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:46 AM   #155
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Originally posted by doctorwho


Yes, that is from an episoded called "Satan Pit" - an interesting take on the possibility of God/Devil.

As for Diamond's thread, I do believe in a spiritual side. I've personally encountered too many things that as a scientist, I cannot explain. This doesn't have me running for God as the explanation, but it does allow me to consider that there is a higher power and that we may exist in another form other than our presence on earth. Again, not saying I believe it, but I am open to the possibility. :-)
Good to hear from you John.

I'm pleased that only half of the respondents in the poll disagree with me.

Several notable, credible scientists have came forward and aligned their views similar to yours.

And that doesn't dismiss the idea and theory of evolution either; essentially the consenus is that both exist and the scripture shouldn't be taken as literal in some places where fundementalists insist that it should be.

Moreover the majority of Drs and Hospice workers all agree that there is something tanagible and real beyond this life and there are good and evil spheres. It's in a whole different demension and right now we're more or less living in a very rudimentary existence compared to where we're headed.

Some of the best books of the existence of the After Life are:

Dr Raymond Moody's "Life After Life"
Dr George Ritchie's "Return from Tomorrow"
Mary Eadie's "Embraced By The Light".
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:18 AM   #156
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Majority opinion is for politics, not science, the facts speak for themselves; consciousness is rooted in a functioning brain - when the brain ceases to function consciousness ends.
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:20 AM   #157
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:45 AM   #158
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Old 03-18-2008, 02:11 AM   #159
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Just out of curiosity, for those who actually profess to be Christian, yet voted that they do not believe in demon possession, how do you rationalize what occurred in the times of Jesus? Demon possession was apparently rather common then. I can understand perfectly how an atheist or agnostic can believe all of this is crap, but I'm a bit surprised by the amount of believers who brush it off as well.

Honestly, I've never seen anyone with my own eyes who were supposedly possessed, so I don't feel the same gravity of this as those who have, but I've heard some things that I couldn't explain. Voting in this one is a bit tough.
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Old 03-18-2008, 02:21 AM   #160
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
We find new missing likes like Tiktaalik or Ambulocetus to add to the pile and they just get ignored. Those fossils are empirical evidence of transitional forms -
Tiktaalik, is that the one from near the Arctic circle near Canada?
Fish to mammal?

If that's it, I saw a special on PBS about it and it blew my fucking mind.

That link is filling up fast.

Once you see it displayed so elegantly, it's astonishingly clear.

There was also a recent episode about the winged dinosaur.
Microraptor? Amazing.

I don't think this destroys a creation model altogether but it sure does decimate standard literal dogma.
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