Demonic Possession, is it real or group hysteria?

[diamond]

agreed, supasta.


dbs

 

[nathan1977]

some people desperately need the devil to exist.

And some people desperately wish he didn't.

But the greatest trick the devil pulled....

 

[melon]

But the greatest trick the devil pulled....

...was convincing people that he was more powerful than what he really is. There's certainly been an awful lot of people killed, in the name of God, by people trying to "rid the world of Satan."

 

[diamond]

...was convincing people that he was more powerful than what he really is. There's certainly been an awful lot of people killed, in the name of God, by people trying to "rid the world of Satan."

Point taken.
Sadly, most ppl don't realize how easy it is to put Satan in check.

dbs

 

[Irvine511]

And some people desperately wish he didn't.

But the greatest trick the devil pulled....

show me the money.

 

[diamond]

show me the money.

Irvine,
Here go.

http://www.churchofsatan.com/home.html

Don't spend too much time there, I don't want to have to go fish you out.



dbs

 

[yolland]

^ That's the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled?

Man, what a letdown...I prefer Paradise Lost.

 

[diamond]

Milton had a lot of it right based on the information available in his day; some of it his opinion only.

dbs

 

[VintagePunk]

Irvine,
Here go.

http://www.churchofsatan.com/home.html

Don't spend too much time there, I don't want to have to go fish you out.



dbs

The beliefs, practices and rituals of the Church of Satan have few, if any, points of similarity with the Christian or Muslim concept of Satan. The CoS' Satan is pre-Christian, and derived from the Pagan image of power, virility, sexuality and sensuality. Satan is viewed as a force of nature, not a living quasi-deity. Their Satan has nothing to do with Hell, demons, pitchforks, sadistic torture, demonic possession, and profound evil. There are references in LaVey' writings to having conducted a few Black Masses for publicity purposes, in which the Roman Catholic Mass was ridiculed. But, it is unknown whether these references were satirical or reflected actual rituals. Assuming that the black masses were fictional, all of their rituals have no connection to those of Christianity or of any other religion.

Some of their beliefs and practices are:
They do not worship a living deity.
Major emphasis is placed on the power and authority of the individual Satanist, rather than on a god or goddess.
They believe that "no redeemer liveth" - that each person is their own redeemer, fully responsible for the direction of their own life.
"Satanism respects and exalts life. Children and animals are the purest expressions of that life force, and as such are held sacred and precious..."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/satanis1.htm


Nice try. Next?

 

[diamond]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/satanis1.htm


Nice try. Next?

Actually here are their tenets and they sound pretty secular to most Christians.

The Nine Satanic Statements

from The Satanic Bible, ©1969

by Anton Szandor LaVey

[français]



1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!

2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!

3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!

4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!

5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!

6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!

7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!

8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!



9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!

 

[VintagePunk]

Actually here are their tenets and they sound pretty secular to most Christians.

The Nine Satanic Statements

from The Satanic Bible, ©1969

by Anton Szandor LaVey

[français]



1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!

2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!

3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!

4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!

5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!

6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!

7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!

8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!



9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!

Yes, they do sound secular. They strike me as a bunch of harmless, self-indulgent hedonists, which, if that's the way they choose to live their lives, that's fine with me.

But my point, the relevant one, is that they by no means agree with your representation of satan, nor do they worship him, or feel it's possible for satan to "possess" someone.

 

[TranceEnding]

Actually here are their tenets and they sound pretty secular to most Christians.

The Nine Satanic Statements

from The Satanic Bible, ©1969

by Anton Szandor LaVey

[français]



1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!

2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!

3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!

4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!

5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!

6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!

7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!

8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!



9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!

I have no real interest or attraction to the ideals of the Church of Satan, but does anyone think these beliefs are necessarily evil ??

 

[VintagePunk]

I have no real interest or attraction to the ideals of the Church of Satan, but does anyone think these beliefs are necessarily evil ??

That's what I was just thinking.

Going through the list, I agree with #1 at times, and with 2, 3, 6, 7 and 9 wholeheartedly.

That's more agreement than I generally share with mainstream religions.

 

[diamond]

self-indulgent hedonists..

I would say these are Satatnist attributes, as are:
not helping the less fornunate, vengence not turning the other cheek-etc.

I wouldn't say ppl of this ilk are completely "harmless".

But my point, the relevant one, is that they by no means agree with your representation of satan, nor do they worship him, or feel it's possible for satan to "possess" someone.

Possession is a whole different topic of Satan tenets and beliefs.

We were talking about if Satan really existed or not, and many ppl in this thread claim he doesn't. I think a worshipping Satanist would beg to differ.

dbs

 

[diamond]

I have no real interest or attraction to the ideals of the Church of Satan, but does anyone think these beliefs are necessarily evil ??

yes, not overtly though.

dbs

 

[VintagePunk]

I would say these are Satatnist attributes, and not helping the less fornunate, vengence not turning the other cheek.
I wouldn't say ppl of this ilk are completely "harmless".

1) Not helping the less fortunate does not equal harming them.

2) Sounds kinda like "an eye for an eye.."

Possession is a whole different topic of Satan tenets and beliefs.

We were talking about if Satan really existed or not, and many ppl in this thread claim he doesn't. I think a worshipping Satanist would beg to differ.

dbs

Diamond, Diamond. Sigh. Did you not read what I quoted before? Here it is again:

The CoS' Satan is pre-Christian, and derived from the Pagan image of power, virility, sexuality and sensuality. Satan is viewed as a force of nature, not a living quasi-deity. Their Satan has nothing to do with Hell, demons, pitchforks, sadistic torture, demonic possession, and profound evil.

I'm saying that to them, he doesn't exist in the way that many Christians believe, and it certainly doesn't sound like they feel he's all powerful, or has the ability to take possession of a human.

 

[TranceEnding]

I just find this kind of topic confusing (but interesting ) I think it may be too complicated to simply slap on a good or evil label on anything

I don't really believe in the Devil/Satan as a spiritual entity and find it hard to believe that people can be 'possessed' ... however, I just thought that when people are filled with the holy spirit, or in a 'rapture' ... maybe this is a polar opposite to some sort of demonic possession?

Just rambling

 

[Irvine511]

if you want to give a name to the darker, more indulgent (for lack of a better word) side of human nature, and then call that Satan, by all means, go ahead.

likewise, if you want to call the belief that there is something more to existence than flesh, and call that God, by all means, go ahead.

but don't talk to me about actual personifications of such things.

 

[diamond]

I just find this kind of topic confusing (but interesting ) I think it may be too complicated to simply slap on a good or evil label on anything

I don't really believe in the Devil/Satan as a spiritual entity and find it hard to believe that people can be 'possessed' ... however, I just thought that when people are filled with the holy spirit, or in a 'rapture' ... maybe this is a polar opposite to some sort of demonic possession?

Just rambling

I acknowledge that Satan exists but don't believe in him.

When a person feels the Holy Spirit, that person usually feels warm happy and fuzzy and perhaps peaceful inside; like you get doing Yoga, praying or meditating sometimes.

A Satanist is usually hooked on a powerful feeling, always wanting to be #1, and is usually angry, scheming and coniving-never satisfied, because their appetites are never met, they want more-like an addict.

A person feeling an uninvited feeling of Satan or bad spirit will usually feel a coldness around them and an oppressive feeling-based on what I've read.

A possesed person is usaually trapped and totally engulfed and over taken by a satanic spirit from what I've read and researched.

dbs

 

[diamond]

if you want to give a name to the darker, more indulgent (for lack of a better word) side of human nature, and then call that Satan, by all means, go ahead.

likewise, if you want to call the belief that there is something more to existence than flesh, and call that God, by all means, go ahead.

I think we can agree on those two points.



dbs

 

[diamond]

1) Not helping the less fortunate does not equal harming them.

2) Sounds kinda like "an eye for an eye.."






Diamond, Diamond. Sigh. Did you not read what I quoted before? Here it is again:

The CoS' Satan is pre-Christian, and derived from the Pagan image of power, virility, sexuality and sensuality. Satan is viewed as a force of nature, not a living quasi-deity. Their Satan has nothing to do with Hell, demons, pitchforks, sadistic torture, demonic possession, and profound evil.

I'm saying that to them, he doesn't exist in the way that many Christians believe, and it certainly doesn't sound like they feel he's all powerful, or has the ability to take possession of a human.

I think it matters from what paradigm a person is dealing from.

Yes Satan has been around since the beginning of time and his attributes that are earthbound:

lust
power
control

etc

I think Satan probably is brilliant entity, he would have to be, based on his powers, *only* if you invite him.

I'm not absolutely sure of his exact nature or make up, nor do I want to be since I have no desire to meet the fellow.





Also I don't think worshipping Satnists have an exact idea of his nature, perhaps some do, but it is not my worry.
dbs

 

[BVS]

I think Satan probably is brilliant entity, he would have to be, based on his powers, *only* if you invite him.

Can one not invite satan and God? Where do those people stand?

 

[diamond]

I think the scripture is clear that you can't serve 2 masters.

dbs

 

[VintagePunk]

I think it matters from what paradigm a person is dealing from.

Yes Satan has been around since the beginning of time and his attributes that are earthbound:

lust
power
control

etc

I think Satan probably is brilliant entity, he would have to be, based on his powers, *only* if you invite him.

I'm not absolutely sure of his exact nature or make up, nor do I want to be since I have no desire to meet the fellow.





Also I don't think worshipping Satnists have an exact idea of his nature, perhaps some do, but it is not my worry.
dbs

At least we agree on one thing.

Keep in mind, I don't believe that Satan exists in any form or incarnation at all - I believe all humans have the capacity for great good or great evil within us, and it's up to us if or how those two opposites manifest. But if - IF - Satan did hypothetically exist, I don't think anyone, be it Christian or Satanist, would have an idea of his exact nature, either.

Also, regarding your statement about inviting Satan in - what do you think happens in the case of possession? Do you think these individuals have gotten a little too close to Satan for comfort, and then have to pay the price, or is there some other mechanism going on, in your opinion? Just curious.

 

[BVS]

I think the scripture is clear that you can't serve 2 masters.

dbs

Not what I asked.

The question was what if you don't invite either one of them? You mentioned the word 'invite' it's a word that religion uses all the time. We always here that in order to be saved, you have to invite God, but you also mention that you have to invite Satan...

So what if you don't invite either

 

[diamond]

Not what I asked.

The question was what if you don't invite either one of them? You mentioned the word 'invite' it's a word that religion uses all the time. In order to be saved, you have to invite God, but you also mention that you have to invite Satan...

So what if you don't invite either

One will eventually have to make up their mind who they'll choose.

I do think as power hungry as Satan is that he comes around sometimes invited or not invited-that's only my personal view.

My reason for this is he wants as many on his team as possible but doesn't realize that it's a losing proposition.

Why is it a losing proposition?

Because the purposes of God won't be frustrated and that purpose is to bring eventual happiness to all of his children.

We learn happiness by learning to love, by giving, by growing and by even suffering sometimes with one another.

dbs

 

[BVS]

One will eventually havde to make up thir mind who they'll choose.

Yeah, I'm not so sure about this... I know this is how most believers think, but I'm not sure I buy it.

If I lived in the same house all my life, isn't it possible I never invited the neighbor to the left of me or the neighbor to the right of me ever in? What if I just never knew or got to know, or knew what I was missing?

 

[diamond]

You have the free will to choose not to know anybody, or do anything I suppose, but this isn't why God gave us life or His plan of happiness..

Also, not interacting with ppl, it doesn't seem like much of an existence though; kind of like being in solitary confinement and if I remember correctly God has encouraged us not to be idle.

I think it's part of God'd plan of happiness that we share our talents and interact with our brothers and sisters (neighbors), for us to learn some things from them, the gifts and talents that they have and we are to share our gifts and talents. I think were suppose to love our neighbors too.

Think about it, Bono could of chose to stay home that day Larry posted the invitation on the school bulletin board, and not exercised his talent(s) or suspected talents and U2 could of never been, and we would have never met here BVS.

How about that? Things happen for a reason.

Because Bono used his free will, he loved life, loved his neighbors (school mates) and used his talents and chose to share them- look what it accomplished.



dbs

 

[BVS]

You have the free will to choose not to know anybody, or do anything I suppose, but this isn't why God gave us life or His plan of happiness..

Also, not interacting with ppl, it doesn't seem like much of an existence though; kind of like being in solitary confinement and if I remember correctly God has encouraged us not to be idle.

I think it's part of God'd plan of happiness that we share our talents and interact with our brothers and sisters (neighbors), for us to learn some things from them, the gifts and talents that they have and we are to share our gifts and talents. I think were suppose to love our neighbors too.

Think about it, Bono could of chose to stay home that day Larry posted the invitation on the school bulletin board, and not exercised his talent(s) or suspected talents and U2 could of never been, and we would have never met here BVS.

How about that? Things happen for a reason.

Because Bono used his free will, he loved life, loved his neighbors (school mates) and used his talents and chose to share them- look what it accomplished.



dbs

That was an analogy. I guess I should have expanded on that. I'm not saying the person is a shut in. I'm saying someone can live a life with friends and family and not ever invite satan or God into their life.

You said one will HAVE to eventually choose, and I'm questioning that, if according to you both have to be invited, well then theoretically someone can live a life without inviting either one...

 

[diamond]

That was an analogy. I guess I should have expanded on that. I'm not saying the person is a shut in. I'm saying someone can live a life with friends and family and not ever invite satan or God into their life.

You said one will HAVE to eventually choose, and I'm questioning that, if according to you both have to be invited, well then theoretically someone can live a life without inviting either one...

You have to choose who you want to invite eventually.

And God didn't create us to recluses in my view from what I've read.

dbs