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View Poll Results: Is Demonic Possession real or group hysteria?
Absolutely real 10 18.87%
Probably real 2 3.77%
It's real, but you have to invite evil influences into your life 8 15.09%
No, not real; anyone claiming this is a mental case. 28 52.83%
There is a good force and a bad force in our universe-a person has to decide which force they choose to serve 2 3.77%
diamondbruno#9, do you have your own church and gospel? 3 5.66%
diamond you always make the best threads; cutting edge, pushing the intellectual and religious envelope; Bravo 6 11.32%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 03-19-2008, 10:03 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally posted by VintagePunk


1) Not helping the less fortunate does not equal harming them.

2) Sounds kinda like "an eye for an eye.."






Diamond, Diamond. Sigh. Did you not read what I quoted before? Here it is again:

The CoS' Satan is pre-Christian, and derived from the Pagan image of power, virility, sexuality and sensuality. Satan is viewed as a force of nature, not a living quasi-deity. Their Satan has nothing to do with Hell, demons, pitchforks, sadistic torture, demonic possession, and profound evil.

I'm saying that to them, he doesn't exist in the way that many Christians believe, and it certainly doesn't sound like they feel he's all powerful, or has the ability to take possession of a human.
I think it matters from what paradigm a person is dealing from.

Yes Satan has been around since the beginning of time and his attributes that are earthbound:

lust
power
control

etc

I think Satan probably is brilliant entity, he would have to be, based on his powers, *only* if you invite him.

I'm not absolutely sure of his exact nature or make up, nor do I want to be since I have no desire to meet the fellow.





Also I don't think worshipping Satnists have an exact idea of his nature, perhaps some do, but it is not my worry.
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Old 03-19-2008, 10:08 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond

I think Satan probably is brilliant entity, he would have to be, based on his powers, *only* if you invite him.
Can one not invite satan and God? Where do those people stand?
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Old 03-19-2008, 10:22 PM   #203
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I think the scripture is clear that you can't serve 2 masters.

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Old 03-19-2008, 10:39 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


I think it matters from what paradigm a person is dealing from.

Yes Satan has been around since the beginning of time and his attributes that are earthbound:

lust
power
control

etc

I think Satan probably is brilliant entity, he would have to be, based on his powers, *only* if you invite him.

I'm not absolutely sure of his exact nature or make up, nor do I want to be since I have no desire to meet the fellow.





Also I don't think worshipping Satnists have an exact idea of his nature, perhaps some do, but it is not my worry.
dbs
At least we agree on one thing.

Keep in mind, I don't believe that Satan exists in any form or incarnation at all - I believe all humans have the capacity for great good or great evil within us, and it's up to us if or how those two opposites manifest. But if - IF - Satan did hypothetically exist, I don't think anyone, be it Christian or Satanist, would have an idea of his exact nature, either.

Also, regarding your statement about inviting Satan in - what do you think happens in the case of possession? Do you think these individuals have gotten a little too close to Satan for comfort, and then have to pay the price, or is there some other mechanism going on, in your opinion? Just curious.
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Old 03-19-2008, 10:42 PM   #205
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I think the scripture is clear that you can't serve 2 masters.

dbs
Not what I asked.

The question was what if you don't invite either one of them? You mentioned the word 'invite' it's a word that religion uses all the time. We always here that in order to be saved, you have to invite God, but you also mention that you have to invite Satan...

So what if you don't invite either
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Old 03-19-2008, 10:51 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Not what I asked.

The question was what if you don't invite either one of them? You mentioned the word 'invite' it's a word that religion uses all the time. In order to be saved, you have to invite God, but you also mention that you have to invite Satan...

So what if you don't invite either
One will eventually have to make up their mind who they'll choose.

I do think as power hungry as Satan is that he comes around sometimes invited or not invited-that's only my personal view.

My reason for this is he wants as many on his team as possible but doesn't realize that it's a losing proposition.

Why is it a losing proposition?

Because the purposes of God won't be frustrated and that purpose is to bring eventual happiness to all of his children.

We learn happiness by learning to love, by giving, by growing and by even suffering sometimes with one another.

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Old 03-19-2008, 11:19 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


One will eventually havde to make up thir mind who they'll choose.

Yeah, I'm not so sure about this... I know this is how most believers think, but I'm not sure I buy it.

If I lived in the same house all my life, isn't it possible I never invited the neighbor to the left of me or the neighbor to the right of me ever in? What if I just never knew or got to know, or knew what I was missing?
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Old 03-20-2008, 12:04 AM   #208
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You have the free will to choose not to know anybody, or do anything I suppose, but this isn't why God gave us life or His plan of happiness..

Also, not interacting with ppl, it doesn't seem like much of an existence though; kind of like being in solitary confinement and if I remember correctly God has encouraged us not to be idle.

I think it's part of God'd plan of happiness that we share our talents and interact with our brothers and sisters (neighbors), for us to learn some things from them, the gifts and talents that they have and we are to share our gifts and talents. I think were suppose to love our neighbors too.

Think about it, Bono could of chose to stay home that day Larry posted the invitation on the school bulletin board, and not exercised his talent(s) or suspected talents and U2 could of never been, and we would have never met here BVS.

How about that? Things happen for a reason.

Because Bono used his free will, he loved life, loved his neighbors (school mates) and used his talents and chose to share them- look what it accomplished.



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Old 03-20-2008, 06:22 AM   #209
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
You have the free will to choose not to know anybody, or do anything I suppose, but this isn't why God gave us life or His plan of happiness..

Also, not interacting with ppl, it doesn't seem like much of an existence though; kind of like being in solitary confinement and if I remember correctly God has encouraged us not to be idle.

I think it's part of God'd plan of happiness that we share our talents and interact with our brothers and sisters (neighbors), for us to learn some things from them, the gifts and talents that they have and we are to share our gifts and talents. I think were suppose to love our neighbors too.

Think about it, Bono could of chose to stay home that day Larry posted the invitation on the school bulletin board, and not exercised his talent(s) or suspected talents and U2 could of never been, and we would have never met here BVS.

How about that? Things happen for a reason.

Because Bono used his free will, he loved life, loved his neighbors (school mates) and used his talents and chose to share them- look what it accomplished.



dbs
That was an analogy. I guess I should have expanded on that. I'm not saying the person is a shut in. I'm saying someone can live a life with friends and family and not ever invite satan or God into their life.

You said one will HAVE to eventually choose, and I'm questioning that, if according to you both have to be invited, well then theoretically someone can live a life without inviting either one...
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Old 03-20-2008, 10:58 AM   #210
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


That was an analogy. I guess I should have expanded on that. I'm not saying the person is a shut in. I'm saying someone can live a life with friends and family and not ever invite satan or God into their life.

You said one will HAVE to eventually choose, and I'm questioning that, if according to you both have to be invited, well then theoretically someone can live a life without inviting either one...
You have to choose who you want to invite eventually.

And God didn't create us to recluses in my view from what I've read.

dbs
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Old 03-20-2008, 11:10 AM   #211
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You have to choose who you want to invite eventually.

And God didn't create us to recluses in my view from what I've read.

dbs
No one said anything about a recluse, just drop that idea. Just get that out of your mind.

You keep saying we have to choose who we invite? Why? A man grew up, was a good man, has a good family, he's a faithful husband and great father, put his family before himself.

Never went to church, in fact doesn't know anything about religion except the watered down versions you may hear during a holiday, but he also never did an evil deed in his life.

Who did he invite?
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Old 03-20-2008, 11:18 AM   #212
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


No one said anything about a recluse, just drop that idea. Just get that out of your mind.

You keep saying we have to choose who we invite? Why? A man grew up, was a good man, has a good family, he's a faithful husband and great father, put his family before himself.

Never went to church, in fact doesn't know anything about religion except the watered down versions you may hear during a holiday, but he also never did an evil deed in his life.

Who did he invite?


God.
because all good things come from God, we as humans just don't realize it.

By his actions he chose God internally.

And not to split hairs, if you live next door to ppl on your left or right and never speak or interact with them, most would consider that a recluse, still a good person though.



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Old 03-20-2008, 11:27 AM   #213
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God.
because all good things come from God, we as humans just don't realize it.

By his actions he chose God internally.

And not to split hairs, if you live next door to ppl on your left or right and never speak or interact with them, most would consider that a recluse, still a good person though.



dbs
Not everywhere, some peoples neighbors are miles away, some live in busy urban areas and have different schedules...

So because he was good, he somehow invited God, but without knowing? Ok, then so why do I always hear: "Being good is not enough, you have to invite Jesus Christ in to your heart and ask him to be your saviour in order to be saved."?

I'm just curious. I agree for the most part with "by his actions he chose God internally", but I always hear "that's not enough" from so many god-fearing people.
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Old 03-20-2008, 11:55 AM   #214
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond

God.
because all good things come from God, we as humans just don't realize it.

By his actions he chose God internally.

And not to split hairs, if you live next door to ppl on your left or right and never speak or interact with them, most would consider that a recluse, still a good person though.



dbs
This is exactly the mentality that makes the concept of God distasteful to me, all the bad elements of humanity are the product of human choice yet on those occasions where people choose to do good the credit is appropriated to the divine dictator; I think that it is anti-human, I think that the picture of human behaviour it paints is infantile.

Placing humanity in it's rightful place in the animal kingdom as a uniquely social animal liberates us from such bad thinking, yields explanations for why people have the capacity for empathy and to do good by others and can explain the nasty habits such as creating ingroups and outgroups, racism and violence. It can explain both sides of the coin with one explanation; the model that you put forth demands two explanations (God does Good, Satan does Evil) and even then evil still poses a problem. Darwinism doesn't imply a cruelly individualistic model for human behaviour as believers want it to (as the big source of opposition to evolution both today and in the 19th Century when the creationists were intelligent and learned men is that by removing divine creation mankind looses morality).

People let their morality inform what they consider good religion a lot more than they let religion inform what they consider good morality. The fact that infidels and pagans also have a "moral compass" without any exposure to this cruel Judeo-Christian God attests to it being a universal human character spread in our DNA not imbued by a creator.
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Old 03-20-2008, 12:13 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


You have to choose who you want to invite eventually.

And God didn't create us to recluses in my view from what I've read.

dbs
No, our tribal ancestors couldn't afford to be recluses or they would either die or fail to mate, and the people today who are unable to empathise (sociopaths) represent what happens when the brain develops in the "wrong" way (everything is conditional; being a sociopath can be advantageous under certain conditions).

If God creates us to have love and compassion but we fall short of that because of free will thats fine, but because there are people walking about who can't do those things because of the way their brains work doesn't that mean God is either negligent (just like all those miscarriges and birth defects) or malevolent (having a hand in creating Ted Bundy's and Jeffrey Dahmer's).

This hits directly at the topic of this thread, the idea that evil actions are influenced by an outside demonic actor versus a component of human behaviour.

On the plus side insistence on demonic possession does make it so much easier to ridicule Christians.
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Old 03-20-2008, 01:01 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar




I'm just curious. I agree for the most part with "by his actions he chose God internally", but I always hear "that's not enough" from so many god-fearing people.
I think where my views differ from orthodox Christianity is God is to NOT be feared. Since God is love, or that is his main attribute he won't force us to serve him. Satan on the other hand wants us to be a slave to our own addictions and be self centered and stingy with our time, talent and resources.

Another point is only you and God know if your love for your fellow man is genuine. For those that think church attendance is mandatory, that God keeps a score card etc this is a wrong notion, a person carries their faith with them-it isn't in a church building.

More to the point from what I read, God and you together will one day look and review at what you did with your time on earth, were you kind to the beggar that you saw on the street?
Did you stop and help the person who had a flat tire? Did you visit the sick and afflicted? What did you do with the time that God granted you?

You and God will be happy about the good things that you did, and sad with the selfish things you did-from what I've read. Also he won't judge us as harshly as we think, it will be expalined that all these activities that we were thrust into-were for our learning experience.

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Old 03-20-2008, 01:10 PM   #217
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Ted Bundy's and Jeffrey Dahmer's).

.
Ted Bundy, before he died acknowledged that he believed that there was an evil force and a good force in the universe- and that he was a porn addict.


Jeffery Dahmer didn't live as long as Bundy to offer up an assesment of this nature.

Serial killers' brains after their executions have been examined by forensic pathologists and medical doctors and from what I've read they're no different from a law abiding citizens.

It's all about choice my friend.

dbs
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Old 03-20-2008, 10:06 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally posted by VintagePunk




Going through the list, I agree with #1 at times, and with 2, 3, 6, 7 and 9 wholeheartedly.

Hence the phrase:

"The devil lies in the details"

dbs
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Old 03-21-2008, 12:52 AM   #219
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When a person feels the Holy Spirit, that person usually feels warm happy and fuzzy and perhaps peaceful inside; like you get doing Yoga, praying or meditating sometimes.
I've actually experience feelings like this (yes, in yoga class) but much more intense & overwhelming than just a fuzzy feeling


Quote:
Originally posted by diamond

A person feeling an uninvited feeling of Satan or bad spirit will usually feel a coldness around them and an oppressive feeling-based on what I've read.
And there's been quite a few times where I have experienced this before too (which probably sounds strange to alot of people).

I just put it down to being more of an energy/vibration sponge than anything (ie: the presence of God/Satan) although in the first case an ex-partners strict Baptists parents tried to prove me otherwise

Interesting
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Old 03-21-2008, 10:56 AM   #220
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I think baptists and fundalmenatalists are afraid of yoga, you poor kid.

women i think by nature are more intuitively spiritual..

all i can tell you is from what i've read and on rare occasions felt, an evil enity feels tangible and cold.

also when you feel bad energy coming from someone, i think there's a reason for it, and the person with the bad energy may not even realize that he is a carrier of it.

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