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Old 12-31-2002, 10:47 PM   #21
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Big Grin you sound like the male version of me, lol

Quote:
Originally posted by melon
I don't think anyone would want a skinny, disillusioned, semi-depressive gay leftist intellectual with a disdain for absolutes. I think the military is much better off without me.
aww come on, i'm sure that's exactly what bush is looking for!
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Old 12-31-2002, 11:44 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon

However, in terms of me being suitable for military service? I don't think anyone would want a skinny, disillusioned, semi-depressive gay leftist intellectual with a disdain for absolutes. I think the military is much better off without me.

Melon
Military Intelligence could use you!!!!!

We are better off with you!

Happy New Year!

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Old 01-01-2003, 01:02 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon

However, in terms of me being suitable for military service? I don't think anyone would want a skinny, disillusioned, semi-depressive gay leftist intellectual with a disdain for absolutes. I think the military is much better off without me.

Melon
Your vocabulary alone would scare the shit out of them.



This is a fascinating discussion. Please carry on.
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Old 01-02-2003, 01:23 AM   #24
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It would be interesting to see the effect a draft would have in today's American society. The draft worked well in WW1 and WW2, and to some degree in Korea, because up until that time there was an expectation that everyone had a duty to serve, and people just did. I mean, Elvis left at the height of his career to serve because his # came up.

However, take a look at what happened in Vietnam. You had draft dodgers, protestors, burning draft cards, etc.. You had rampant drug abuse, dissention in the ranks, etc. and soldiers with boots on the ground who did not support the war and weren't really willing to fight with their all. People doing anything to get a deferrment (marriage, kids, college, etc.) who in previous wars would've signed right up. They were raised in a protest society, an "entitlement" society, and had difficulty adapting to the task, and greater difficulty adapting to their return home. Not all soldiers, of course, but it was certainly more prevalent than before. Much less sense of duty.

I would say that our young men (and women if it went that way) are much farther away from sense of duty to country than even during the Vietnam era. I would think it impossible to manage troops like that.

This will never ever pass, for 3 reasons. (Assuming it is a genuine suggestion rather than a publicity stunt, even though I suspect the latter) 1) We have plenty of folks available in the armed forces using a volunteer army. In fact, we have more than enough - cutting back has been the problem. 2) The way that wars are fought today requires fewer personnel. You'll always need soldiers on the ground, but a lot of the attacks are occuring from a distance. 3) The US couldn't afford to pay for the military if every young person was drafted.

I wish we didn't need an army anyway. That'll be my New Years dream.

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Old 01-02-2003, 02:10 AM   #25
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ever since bush gained all the power he wanted from congress right after 9/11 to fight terror in whatever means possible, dont think that enlisting citizens is out of the question.

when america attacks iraq (its not even a question of if, its a question of when), they will try and blitzkrieg there way to the capitol and get the war over as fast as possible. its their word not mine. im not implying anything nazi here, but i heard it from them a while back.

america has a lot of machinery and manpower in the gulf at the moment for iraq alone. if north korea suddenly makes it a two front war, as confident as rumsfeld sounds, ....errr dont be so sure.

the north korean army has over 1 million soldiers. they have biological and chemical weapons. fighting a war in this area would be a huge strain on the american fighting machine.

remember this, a two front war never works. not at this scale.

world war 1 and 2 was decided because the aggressors believed they could. it didnt work then, and as advanced and as powerful as the americans are, dont think that if the war turns against them that they couldnt slap together a bill requiring people to fight for the "fatherland."

just my 2 cents anyway.
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Old 01-02-2003, 06:36 AM   #26
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I really do not have time to go point by point about defending the "HOMELAND".

There will be no draft. I hope STING will post some info statisically that could demonstrate what Rumsfeld has said, we can handle two fronts.

Simple reason there will be no draft......Election less than two years away.


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Old 01-02-2003, 09:39 AM   #27
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To be honest, I have my doubts that North Korea would ever start a war. North Korea is best known for its high stakes publicity stunts almost to say "I'm here, now give me things." Considering how destitute North Korea is with its long-running drought, starvation, and energy shortages, along with the fact that the U.S. really was behind in its oil shipments, North Korea is doing the one thing that will make the U.S. pay attention to them: resuming a nuclear program. North Korea offered a non-aggression pact from the start, telling me that they really are using its nuclear capabilities as a negotiating point. Now it really is a game of chicken between the U.S. and North Korea.

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Old 01-02-2003, 11:44 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
To be honest, I have my doubts that North Korea would ever start a war. North Korea is best known for its high stakes publicity stunts almost to say "I'm here, now give me things." Considering how destitute North Korea is with its long-running drought, starvation, and energy shortages, along with the fact that the U.S. really was behind in its oil shipments, North Korea is doing the one thing that will make the U.S. pay attention to them: resuming a nuclear program. North Korea offered a non-aggression pact from the start, telling me that they really are using its nuclear capabilities as a negotiating point. Now it really is a game of chicken between the U.S. and North Korea.

Melon
Exactly! Look at the projected costs for a U.S. military engagement - North Korea could not sustain any action. I guess they got tired of trying to tunnel under the DMZ.
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Old 01-02-2003, 11:50 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Crzy4Bono
It would be interesting to see the effect a draft would have in today's American society. The draft worked well in WW1 and WW2, and to some degree in Korea, because up until that time there was an expectation that everyone had a duty to serve, and people just did. I mean, Elvis left at the height of his career to serve because his # came up.

However, take a look at what happened in Vietnam. You had draft dodgers, protestors, burning draft cards, etc.. You had rampant drug abuse, dissention in the ranks, etc. and soldiers with boots on the ground who did not support the war and weren't really willing to fight with their all. People doing anything to get a deferrment (marriage, kids, college, etc.) who in previous wars would've signed right up. They were raised in a protest society, an "entitlement" society, and had difficulty adapting to the task, and greater difficulty adapting to their return home. Not all soldiers, of course, but it was certainly more prevalent than before. Much less sense of duty.
Very well said. While there were conscientious objectors during WWII, the shifting attitude toward "entitlement" and away from personal responsibility decimated the sense of duty from society at large.

There are few today who can articulate a reasonably valid conscientious objector status. Melonís post above is an excellent example.
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Old 01-02-2003, 01:02 PM   #30
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my grandpa and his brothers were co's during ww2.
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those evil natured robots
theyre programed to destroy us
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so shes taking lots of vitamins
cause she knows that
it be tragic
if those evil robots win
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Old 01-02-2003, 06:05 PM   #31
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Well as far as the two front war senerio goes, lets look at some numbers.

US military intervention in Iraq at most will have 250,000 troops involved from all four services and the reserves.

Total number of US personal on active duty and in the reserves is 2.6 million. I should mention though that most of the 250,000 troops going to Iraq and most of the 2.6 million personal serving in the military are not "trigger pullers" or combat troops. Most are support personal who are vital to maintaining and supporting soldiers in combat. Without them it would be impossible to fight a war even for an hour!

War in Iraq in terms of ground combat troops will at most involve 4 US Army divisions and 1 Marine MEF.

A defensive war against North Korea will involve 3 US Army Divisions and perhaps another Marine MEF.

There are a total of 10 US Army Divisions and 3 Marine MEFS on active Duty. The US Army National Guard and Reserve have another 10 divisions in addition to non-attached smaller Brigades and Battalions. There is also 1 Marine MEF in the Marine reserve.

But remember many reserve combat units after they are mobilize often require extensive training lasting months before they are considered combat ready. But depending on the circumstances they could be deployed without that training, but that would only be done in the most extreme situations. Support personal due to the different nature of their job are ready to go help the active force at a moments notice.

The US Airforce and Navy are the largest in the world and in terms of combat aircraft dwarf the number of Aircraft that North Korea and Iraq have. Both North Korea and Iraq do not have Naval forces of significant size. Right now it looks like any war in Iraq will involve about 1,000 Airforce, Naval, and Marine Combat Aircraft. Thats only 25% of the total number of combat aircraft the USA has.

In the North Korea vs. South Korea situation, realize that while North Korea has a Military of 1.1 million that South Korea has a military of 700,000. South Korea in general has 60 to 70% of the equipment the North does and generally has better equipment and better training as well.

The problem with North Korea(besides having a couple of nuclear weapons) is the foward positioning of so many of their troops, nearly 70%, within 30 miles of the DMZ. North Korea has artillery built into the side of Mountains and protected by large concrete doors. North Korea has one of the largest inventories of Artillery in the world. With Seoul South Korea less than 30 miles from the DMZ, it is speculated that North Korea could fire up to 200,000 high explosive shells on to Seoul during the first day of combat. This is what most people worry about rather than the North Korean Military's ability to conduct a deep offensive into South Korea. Taking out that Artillery can be done, but not before there could potentially be massive loss of life in Seoul. I wish they had rebuilt Seoul further south of the DMZ after the Korean War, say 100 miles so it would be out of range of North Korean Artillery.

The USA does have enough forces to combat North Korea and Iraq, fight the war on terror, and if need be defend Tawain from a Chinese invasion. Remember, Chinese invasion of Tawain is dependent on Chinese Navy and Chinese sea lift and air lift which are small.
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Old 01-02-2003, 09:36 PM   #32
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In mid-September, I got a telephone call from NumberOneFoglet. "Dad," he said, "I've decided to go in the Army when I graduate from high school next June. I've signed the papers, I go to basic in July, and I'm gonna get $50,000 for college."

When my heart started beating again, I asked a few more questions and got some answers I didn't really want to hear. My oldest son, who last Christmas was talking about being a high-school history teacher, has now decided he's not ready for college and wants to travel. He talked to the recruiters and the Army gave him what he thinks is the best deal, in exchange for four years of being a tank crewman.

"Yeah, dad, I do my basic training and AIT at Fort Knox, Kentucky, then I get to go to Korea for armored training."

In September, the word "Korea" was an ordinary word. I had a former co-worker who had been an Army Ranger and had done a couple of tours in Korea -- even married a Korean woman -- and had survived to tell some pretty rollicking stories about his time there.

But now, Korea....

The thought of my boy being a new GI in Korea this time next year is almost more than I can stand. Don't get me wrong: I'm proud of my son, of his desire to serve his country, of his obvious patriotism, and his willingness to take on a dangerous and honorable job.

Korea...

Congressman Rangel, I know you served this country bravely fifty-odd years ago in that same land. You were there with a varied bunch of guys -- some draftees, some volunteers, some older WWII vets, some career guys. You saw the hell of war up close and personal.

My boy's a volunteer. He wants to join one of, if not the best and most professional military organizations that this planet has ever seen. He wants to test himself against other proud professionals.

He's willing to risk his life for the chance to travel and for the GI educational benefits.

He wants to drive a tank someday.

Save the anti-war politicking for another time, Congressman

I want to know that, if my boy has to put his butt on the line for this country, he's going to be accompanied by other brave men like him. Brave men who believe in the mission and who believe in each other.

Highly trained men. Professionals.

All of them.

Sons and brothers, daughters and sisters of families who support them and pray for them to return safely home.

They are not bargaining chips in your cheap, rhetorical, political game.

One of them is my kid.

I'll give him to my country, even for tawdry and divisive people like you have become in the past fifty years, Congressman, because this country is worth fighting for and dying for.

But I'll never forgive your efforts to cheapen the value of that gift, Congressman.

posted by TRFogey at Tabacco Road fogey
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Old 01-05-2003, 10:01 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


Your vocabulary alone would scare the shit out of them.

Except for the fact that Melon keeps writing "mute point" when he means "moot point."
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Old 01-05-2003, 12:00 PM   #34
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Wow, speedracer, you really ought to consider dropping the pedantic behavior. It got old a long time ago.
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Old 01-06-2003, 09:54 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by pub crawler
Wow, speedracer, you really ought to consider dropping the pedantic behavior. It got old a long time ago.
Poo-poo on speedracer for pointing out the grievous error of a "leftist intellectual;" he should be ashamed (if not banned).

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Old 01-06-2003, 10:51 PM   #36
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Has nothing to do with the left or the right. I'm simply pointing out speedracer's silliness. *shrug*
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Old 01-07-2003, 03:12 AM   #37
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i will fight as a partisan for america when they invade canada.
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those evil natured robots
theyre programed to destroy us
she gotta be strong to fight them
so shes taking lots of vitamins
cause she knows that
it be tragic
if those evil robots win
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Old 01-07-2003, 08:15 PM   #38
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One week later...LOL This made the news tonight on ABC and then I found this.


Some Democrats Urge Broad U.S. Military Draft

Reuters
Tuesday, January 7, 2003; 6:57 PM



By Vicki Allen

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Two leading House of Representatives Democrats called on Tuesday for bringing back the military draft, saying political leaders would be more wary of sending troops to Iraq if their children were going to help do the fighting.

The Bush administration quickly dismissed the idea as unnecessary and unwise, and it was expected to gain little traction in the Republican-led Congress.

Reps. Charles Rangel of New York and John Conyers of Michigan, both Korean War veterans, said the nation must debate whether it should continue with a fighting force comprised disproportionately of people from low-income families and minorities.

Their bill would require military or national service for men and women, ages 18 to 26, without exemptions for college or graduate studies.

"I believe that if those calling for war knew that their children were likely to be required to serve -- and to be placed in harm's way -- there would be more caution and greater willingness to work with the international community in dealing with Iraq," Rangel said at a news conference.

"It has unfortunately become the duty of someone else's child to go to war and die as the privileged evade the tragic consequences of war," Conyers said in a statement.

The draft was in place from 1948 to 1973 when the United States converted to an all-volunteer army. But almost all men living in the United States -- including most male noncitizens -- are required to register with the Selective Service on reaching age 18, and federal benefits, including financial aid for college studies, are contingent on registration.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said the administration had no plan to resume the draft, saying, "There is no need for it at all," and that it would prompt an inefficient "churning" of personnel who were trained and then left the military.

REQUIREMENT TO SERVE

Rangel, top Ways and Means Committee Democrat, and Conyers, top Judiciary Committee Democrat, both oppose Bush's plans for a possible attack on Iraq if it does not meet U.N. requirements to disarm.

Rangel, who was general counsel to the National Advisory Commission on Selective Service during the administration of President Lyndon Johnson and the Vietnam War, said he would call for bringing back a draft even if he supported Bush on Iraq.

The bill would give the president authority to set the number of people required for military service and would require those not selected for the military to serve at least two years in a civilian post. Military service would be selected by lottery, he said.

The lawmakers said they had picked up several Democratic co-sponsors.

In their regular press briefing, Rumsfeld and Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joints Chiefs of Staff, said the current volunteer force was working well.

Rumsfeld said that under the draft people were "sucked into the intake, trained for a period of months, and then went out, adding no value, no advantage, really, to the United States armed services over any sustained period of time."

Myers called the volunteer force "extremely well-trained and well-led troops. Any comparisons between today's force and the Vietnam force would be dramatic. There is no comparison."

Rep. John McHugh, a New York Republican who chairs the Armed Services military personnel subcommittee, said he did not see "a lot of enthusiasm or support" for the bill, "either within the civilian community or perhaps most importantly, from the senior military leadership."
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Old 01-07-2003, 09:05 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by pub crawler
Has nothing to do with the left or the right. I'm simply pointing out speedracer's silliness. *shrug*
Understood, pub crawler! I feel much safer in here knowing that the anti-silliness police are patroling this forum to make sure people are sillifying each other.

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Old 01-07-2003, 09:18 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer


Except for the fact that Melon keeps writing "mute point" when he means "moot point."
Thanks for the correction. I never said I was perfect.

Cheers!

Melon
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