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Old 06-28-2008, 12:58 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Vincent Vega View Post
Because in the end it would mean that an American city that isn't armed falls victim to high crime rates due to a lack or armament. Or, to put it differenty, Americans need to be armed because otherwise people will go mad.
Think you're out on a limb a bit here. I have no illusion that if everyone was packing heat then crime would magically go away. But that's really immaterial to me.

The right to bear arms is a constitutional guarantee in this country, period. No matter if you live in the big city or in the middle of nowhere. If a person wishes to own to a handgun, that is a reasonable application of the Second Amendment.

I support registration of firearms, thorough background checks, and a required safety course that each state would need to provide the potential handgun owner. Haven't done much research on trigger locks but I probably would support those as well.
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Old 06-28-2008, 01:35 PM   #42
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Was just going by your last sentence which sounded like "If Washington wasn't cracking down on guns, crime wouldn't ever have gone up so much." Sorry if you didn't mean it in that simple way.

What you described is pretty much the situation in Germany. You need to get kind of a driver's license for guns, proof that you have adequate storage for your gun, then you can buy a gun, get a "passport" for the gun and after that may call yourself a gun owner. Well, there are still more restrictions to gun ownership, like you wouldn't be allowed to carry that gun outside a shooting range or your own home (except you can prove that you are at serious risk and need a gun for self-protection), you can't just get any gun you want and with most weapons you have to show what you want to use them for, like hunting or recreational sport.

But nevertheless, I think there is so much time spent on debating whether or not to have gun restrictions, when the real reasons for violent crimes really are different, much more complex and cannot be answered by an armed society appropriately.
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Old 06-28-2008, 02:02 PM   #43
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"A gun is a tool. No better and no worse than any other tool-or an axe or a saddle or a stove or anything. Think of it always that way. A gun is as good or as bad as the man who carries it. Remember that."

~Shane Jack Schaefer
Shane was a tool.
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Old 06-28-2008, 02:07 PM   #44
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Was just going by your last sentence which sounded like "If Washington wasn't cracking down on guns, crime wouldn't ever have gone up so much." Sorry if you didn't mean it in that simple way.
Yes, that was poorly worded on my part. It was more of a tongue in cheek comment, since I don't think a gun ban has much impact on gun crime.

Germany probably has a different gun culture than the U.S., but it sounds like your country has some reasonable policies in place.
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Old 06-28-2008, 02:17 PM   #45
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Ok, took it too literally.

I guess when it comes to the understanding of freedom and liberties Germany and the US have a whole different take on these, and gun control would be one thing. Many think our gun restrictions are way too hard as you really have to present adequate proof as to why you want to buy that gun, how you would use it, how to store it, etc. In my view so far it has served us quite well.
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Old 06-28-2008, 08:19 PM   #46
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I'm sorry but that quote is a pretty bullshit quote. So the gun in the hands of a 6 yr old who killed another child, he was a bad kid? Or the people who hear a noise, reach for a gun and shoot first without thinking, their inherently bad? No their not, they're using not a TOOL but an object made for one reason only TO KILL and using it in situations that do not warrent it.

Most people here know how against gun ownership I am. I do believe that no one besides police and farmers (under strict ownership laws) should be able to own and use guns. I also do understand that this is not a viable option in the US with the amount of guns out there, no huge buyback scheme that Australia put in place is going to work.

I just don't know why a lot of people claim to feel safer with a gun. Ok if someone is attacking you, or breaking into your house with a gun, then ok, having a gun to protect yourself is understandable. But what makes the idea that you can shoot and kill someone, or blow half their head off, or shoot them in the stomach and wathc them die a slow painful death, makes you feel SAFE? Why would you want to do that to anyone? I would not like the person who robbed me, or stole something, or broke into my house, or bashed me over the head, I would ot like to be the person responsible for blowing his brains out. Not to say I don't want them punished, but really? killing someone?

i just think the second ammendment is waaaaaay out of date and should be trotted out as an excuse for the right to carry some semi automatic weapon and shoot someone purely for stepping a toe on your property.


"I'm sorry but that quote is a pretty bullshit quote."

So, you have read the book?
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Old 06-28-2008, 08:34 PM   #47
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No i haven't read the book, but i read the quote and in my opinion think its a pretty silly thing to say. I don't believe only bad people kill people, because of how many accidents there are (or even heat of the moment murders) that could most probably not have happened if it wasn't a gun in someone's hands.
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Old 06-28-2008, 08:44 PM   #48
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No i haven't read the book, but i read the quote and in my opinion think its a pretty silly thing to say. I don't believe only bad people kill people, because of how many accidents there are (or even heat of the moment murders) that could most probably not have happened if it wasn't a gun in someone's hands.


Read the book if you can. It's not what you might be thinking.

Saying a gun is just a tool is not a silly thing to say.

It is that just that, a tool.

I live on a farm where we use shovels, axes, knives and guns.


The problem is not our tools, but the evil in hearts that creates the violence.

Evil bent on evil will find a means.
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Old 06-29-2008, 12:07 AM   #49
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Read the book if you can. It's not what you might be thinking.

Saying a gun is just a tool is not a silly thing to say.

It is that just that, a tool.

I live on a farm where we use shovels, axes, knives and guns.


The problem is not our tools, but the evil in hearts that creates the violence.

Evil bent on evil will find a means.
But, see Iron Horse, it kind of IS a bunch of crap. It may be a tool, but it's certainly not "just" a tool. Of the tools on your list, it is the only one that's express purpose is to kill. shovels made for digging (though could be used for killing if you beat someone with it), axes made for chopping wood (though again could be used for killing), knives for cutting (but. . .you get the picture). Guns? Made for killing (though can be used for shooting at tin cans, or old Spanish textbooks as my friends and I used to enjoy shooting when we'd go out target shooting in high school). The fact is that if there were no evil in our hearts there would be no need for the "tool "you're referring to. The others would still find uses in a world without evil.
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Old 06-29-2008, 12:17 AM   #50
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Germany probably has a different gun culture than the U.S., but it sounds like your country has some reasonable policies in place.
I'm beginning to think my issues really are with the "gun culture" in the U.S. Because I listen to Vincent Vega and A_Wanderer, or hear about the gun culture of a place like Switzerland and I'm like--yeah, I could live with gun ownership the way they describe it. But the American fascination with guns makes me nervous. I don't think we're mature enough as a nation to be running around with guns.

And a word on violent crime rates and guns. I think we fixate on criminals and their use of guns in the crimes they commit. I don't think gun laws will have much effect on such people. Hell, breaking the law is what they do for a living so why would they care what gun laws are in place. Unless extremely strict gun laws are in place nationwide I can't see much of an impact on the illegal purchase and use of weapons. On the OTHER hand, I would expect you'd see an INCREASE in the "crimes of passion" and such with looser gun laws. I'm willing to bet that most murders that happen in people's home are committed not by faceless intruders but by someone that the victims know and love (or used to love as the case may be). It's all the people who never planned to kill anyone that worry me, not the "bad guys."

Interesting side note: I've shot just about every legal weapon there is out there. One of my best friends in high school was a big gun enthusiast. My favorite was that pistol-grip shotgun like the one in Terminator 2 (which came out the year I was a senior in high school) and the AR-15. However, the irony is my experience with guns is one of the reasons I'm such a strong advocate of strict gun control laws. It's a long story and I don't have time to tell it now.
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Old 06-29-2008, 12:18 AM   #51
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[QUOTE=Bluer White;5250677]Think you're out on a limb a bit here. I have no illusion that if everyone was packing heat then crime would magically go away.

QUOTE]

Really? Because according to Cherokee Rose, that's what happened in Kennesaw, Georgia.
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Old 06-29-2008, 05:53 AM   #52
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Read the book if you can. It's not what you might be thinking.

Saying a gun is just a tool is not a silly thing to say.

It is that just that, a tool.

I live on a farm where we use shovels, axes, knives and guns.


The problem is not our tools, but the evil in hearts that creates the violence.

Evil bent on evil will find a means.
And there is the point: You live on a farm in the countryside where you probably have a hunting rifle. I've not heard of many farms in the city of Washington D.C. where a hunting rifle was needed. But I've heard of kids and young adults driving around shooting there semi-automatic AK47 or SKS Simunov at whoever passes them in the city of LA for example, just for the fun of it. Why was it a semi-automatic AK47? Well, full automatic weapons aren't allowed in California.
Those cases won't be prevented even if stricter gun laws were in place. Nevertheless, it gets more difficult to distribute those weapons if they are illegal.

I can see the "tool" argument in the countryside, but I entirely fail to see that argument holding any water in the cities.
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Old 06-29-2008, 09:45 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by the iron horse View Post
"A gun is a tool. No better and no worse than any other tool-or an axe or a saddle or a stove or anything. Think of it always that way. A gun is as good or as bad as the man who carries it. Remember that."

~Shane Jack Schaefer

except that the only purpose of a gun is to kill. that's it. it serves no other purpose.

axes cut down trees, saddles let you ride a horse, and stove cooks food.

guns help people kill better.

it's not just any other product.
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Old 06-29-2008, 09:46 PM   #54
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I'm wondering how all these DC gun laws....the same laws being struck down by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional....

are stopping criminals, gang bangers, etc....from getting the handguns they use to raise hell?

Do the DC gun laws keep pistols out of the hands of folks who should not have them, or just out of the hands of folks who respect the laws on the books?

Washington, D.C. is not known as a particularly safe city Why not? They have cracked down on guns


did you read my post?

they get the guns in gun lovin' VA -- a place where the insane can get guns.
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Old 06-30-2008, 01:26 AM   #55
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except that the only purpose of a gun is to kill. that's it. it serves no other purpose.

axes cut down trees, saddles let you ride a horse, and stove cooks food.

guns help people kill better.

it's not just any other product.
I think your wrong, guns that kill aren't nearly as useful as guns that main, if you can clog up your enemies infrastructure with wounded you can win wars.
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Old 06-30-2008, 04:16 AM   #56
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gunz p0wn n00bz
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Old 06-30-2008, 09:05 AM   #57
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I think your wrong, guns that kill aren't nearly as useful as guns that main, if you can clog up your enemies infrastructure with wounded you can win wars.


do you mean "maim"?
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Old 06-30-2008, 09:39 AM   #58
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Guns are legal in New York City btw - you need a license to own a gun or even to walk into a gun shop. In 2007, they had fewer than 500 murders (a 40 year low) compared to 2245 in 1990. So obviously there are larger factors than legality of guns to blame for violent crime. There may even be a deterrent effect, and violent crime could fall.
Agreed.....but Baltimore and D.C. have become two of the most violent cities in the US. New York, thanks to the former mayer, who stepped up police protection. Made the Big Apple, much safer. Sadly, this has not happened in the above mentioned cities.

Gangs, guns and drugs have destroyed Baltimore and D.C. Murder rates are alarming as compared to some other cities of the same populations. 90 percent of murder and gun related crime is confined to Baltimore City, then to the rest of the State of Maryland. Baltimore would be a much safer city if the mayor would actually do something for it's residents. She should follow New York's example.

My point is....why is there such easy access to hand guns anyway. They are never used by hunters.
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Old 06-30-2008, 06:38 PM   #59
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do you mean "maim"?
I blame the small laptop keyboard
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Old 06-30-2008, 09:16 PM   #60
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Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars



A Texas grand jury has cleared a 62-year-old retiree who who shot and killed two men he suspected of burglarizing his neighbor's home last fall in the Houston suburb of Pasadena.

Joe Horn saw the men crawling out the windows of a neighbor's house and called 911. He told the dispatcher he had a shotgun and was going to kill the men. The dispatcher pleaded with Horn not to go outside, but Horn confronted the men and shot both in the back with a 12-gauge shotgun as they fled.

The suspected burglars, Hernando Riascos Torres, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, were unemployed illegal immigrants from Colombia. Torres was deported to Colombia in 1999 after a 1994 cocaine-related conviction.

Civil rights activists organized protests, saying that the shootings were racially motivated and that Horn engaged in vigilante justice.

"The message we're trying to send today is the criminal justice system works," Harris County District Attorney Kenneth Magidson said after the grand jury declined to indict Horn.
Cool, who wants to hunt small game.
In Texas you can get legal, clean kills.
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