Creationism isn't Right

[INDY500]

Jesus wouldn't agree with you here.

"Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

"You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

"Blessed are you poor, for yours is the kingdom of God."

I think I understand, but if I'm in error I hope someone can correct me.

 

[Irvine511]

[q]Pot kettle black. At least I'll use historical fact rather than personal beliefs to back it up.[/q]

[q]That is not what our forefathers were trying to prevent. That is such a... Our forefathers were trying to prevent being arrested because you belonged to a different church than the state sactioned one. They were trying to prevent being ordered by the Pope to invade the holy lands. They were trying to prevent a nation going to war against another nation simply because they were of a different denomination. Those were the type of things that had been going on in the recent history of our forefathers and that's what they were trying to prevent. Saying anything different is just flat out lying.[/q]








and you're lying to yourself if you don't think that Creationism/Intelligent Design are anything other than proufoundly Christianist movements.

you are explicitly advocating the teaching of A PARTICULAR religion when you are talking about Creationism/ID. as anitram continually points out -- where are the Hindu beliefs? the Voodoo beliefs?

you're not about god, you're about A specific god. you keep talking about "religion" and you continually, consistently, perfectly prove my point, and the forefather's point: when YOU say "religion" you mean Christianity.

hence, we separate religion from government precisely because of folks like you.

 

[Snowlock]

What's the scientific evidence for Creationism?

Oh, that's right. Conservatives only believe in science when it backs their play or saves their lives.

.

There isn't much evidence that's why it's called a theory. Yeah, we conservatives don't believe in science; or peace or love either. Becareful or one of us just may eat your baby.

 

[Irvine511]

.

There isn't much evidence that's why it's called a theory.

please, educate yourself:

[q]The word theory has a number of distinct meanings in different fields of knowledge, depending on their methodologies and the context of discussion.

In common usage, people often use the word theory to signify a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation. In this usage, a theory is not necessarily based on facts; in other words, it is not required to be consistent with true descriptions of reality. True descriptions of reality are more reflectively understood as statements that would be true independently of what people think about them. In this usage, the word is synonymous with hypothesis.

In science, a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and a theory which explains why the apple behaves so is the general theory of relativity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory[/q]



[q]The theory of evolution by natural selection was first proposed by Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace and set out in detail in Darwin's 1859 book On the origin of species.[5] In the 1930s, Darwinian natural selection was combined with Mendelian inheritance to form the modern evolutionary synthesis,[3] in which the connection between the units of evolution (genes) and the mechanism of evolution (natural selection) was made. This powerful explanatory and predictive theory has become the central organizing principle of modern biology, providing a unifying explanation for the diversity of life on Earth.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
[/q]

 

[Snowlock]

and you're lying to yourself if you don't think that Creationism/Intelligent Design are anything other than proufoundly Christianist movements.

you are explicitly advocating the teaching of A PARTICULAR religion when you are talking about Creationism/ID. as anitram continually points out -- where are the Hindu beliefs? the Voodoo beliefs?

you're not about god, you're about A specific god. you keep talking about "religion" and you continually, consistently, perfectly prove my point, and the forefather's point: when YOU say "religion" you mean Christianity.

hence, we separate religion from government precisely because of folks like you.

I can see it can be viewed as a profoundly Christianist movement but it doesn't have to be. And I'm not saying it should be. Nor am I saying it should be the only theory taught; or that it should be the MAIN theory taught.

So no, I'm not proving your point. Underneath it all your point is, and you stated it many times, "I don't believe in God, so I don't want to hear about it." And honestly, that point is no different than the evangelicals who are saying that man started in the Garden of Eden and everyone who doesn't believe so is going to Hell. You're no different at all.

 

[Snowlock]

Originally posted by Irvine511
[q] please, educate yourself: [/q]

Do you even read what you post?

"In common usage, people often use the word theory to signify a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation"

"It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition."

"Do not necessarily" is not "Do not". Also, Neuton's theory and Darwin's theory are not quite the same thing as I'm sure you'd agree.

 

[Irvine511]

I can see it can be viewed as a profoundly Christianist movement but it doesn't have to be. And I'm not saying it should be. Nor am I saying it should be the only theory taught; or that it should be the MAIN theory taught.

So no, I'm not proving your point. Underneath it all your point is, and you stated it many times, "I don't believe in God, so I don't want to hear about it." And honestly, that point is no different than the evangelicals who are saying that man started in the Garden of Eden and everyone who doesn't believe so is going to Hell. You're no different at all.

you should look up The Discovery Institute. they're the people who cooked up "intelligent design."

you've proved my point beautifullly. thank you.

where have i said that i don't believe in God? if you go through my posts here, and throughout FYM, you'll find that i'm passionately agnostic. it's a fascinating question, i struggle with it, i currently attend a Buddhist meditation/lecture/service twice a month, and i'm a very curious person. i am not an atheist. have never been one and could never be one.

but it appears as if you have to call me names to support your arguments, which belies how unsubstantiated they are on this particular subject.

 

[Irvine511]

Originally posted by Irvine511
[q] please, educate yourself: [/q]

Do you even read what you post?

"In common usage, people often use the word theory to signify a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation"

ARE YOU JOKING?!?!?!

[Q]In science, a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and a theory which explains why the apple behaves so is the general theory of relativity.[/Q]


THIS is what we're talking about with evolution.

this is not a theory on the Kennedy assassination. this is a SCIENTIFIC theory.

you must just be fucking with me.

 

[anitram]

I can see it can be viewed as a profoundly Christianist movement but it doesn't have to be. And I'm not saying it should be. Nor am I saying it should be the only theory taught; or that it should be the MAIN theory taught.

So teach it in a bloody religious studies class! Along with all the other theories of creation.

It has no basis in scientific fact and therefore no place in a biology class.

And I guess nobody is going to tell me whether all the disabled children out there are disabled due to their parents sinning.

 

[Snowlock]

ARE YOU JOKING?!?!?!

[Q]In science, a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and a theory which explains why the apple behaves so is the general theory of relativity.[/Q]


THIS is what we're talking about with evolution.

this is not a theory on the Kennedy assassination. this is a SCIENTIFIC theory.

you must just be fucking with me.

yeah yeah, I hit the submit button too quickly. I wasn't done. It's edited.

 

[Snowlock]

you should look up The Discovery Institute. they're the people who cooked up "intelligent design."

you've proved my point beautifullly. thank you.

where have i said that i don't believe in God? if you go through my posts here, and throughout FYM, you'll find that i'm passionately agnostic. it's a fascinating question, i struggle with it, i currently attend a Buddhist meditation/lecture/service twice a month, and i'm a very curious person. i am not an atheist. have never been one and could never be one.

but it appears as if you have to call me names to support your arguments, which belies how unsubstantiated they are on this particular subject.

Call religion "shit" doesn't exactly yell out that you're on the fence about the whole thing. You'll have to pardon the interpretation. Curiously I believe the Name calling started with "shit" beliefs if you care to scroll up. So, ah, lets not nail ourselves up on the cross now, huh?

 

[DublinGuy]

But when the Bible says, for example, that there were 3 times when God spoke to Jesus (literally spoke, audibly, and the people around Jesus heard Him too), I cant help but believe that that really happened. It's too awesome to not want to believe.

This sums up the general theistic position quite well in my view, especially that hald by individuals who take the Bible to be a literal account of events. "Too awesome to not want to believe" seems to provide the primary reason for many theists holding their beliefs but this has no logical connection the existential status of a divine being or any of the purported events mentioned in the Bible. I'd love to think that U2 are about to do a concert in my house but wanting to believe that this is the case has no bearing on the truth of the matter.

I've been interested to read through this discussion. It always baffles me how the US, a country that claims to be so advanced can remain such a stronghold for creationism.

 

[2861U2]

And I guess nobody is going to tell me whether all the disabled children out there are disabled due to their parents sinning.

I already addressed this a few pages ago. Who believes this? We are all sinners, but a sick child is not the result/punishment of our sin. I dont believe your statement at all.

 

[Irvine511]

yeah yeah, I hit the submit button too quickly. I wasn't done. It's edited.

okay.

but nothing has changed.

a theory and a SCIENTIFIC THEORY are not the same thing, not even close.

it's up to you to prove the scientific merits of Creationism or Intelligent Design -- again, Christian concepts, both -- for them to be included in a science classroom.

the burden of proof is on you to prove, not for science to prove you wrong.

 

[anitram]

I already addressed this a few pages ago. Who believes this? We are all sinners, but a sick child is not the result/punishment of our sin. I dont believe your statement at all.

I provided you a link. It's stated in the creation museum in Kentucky that congenital defects are a result of sin, not recessive genes. That is why the children of Adam and Eve could marry and not produce inbred, genetically inferior progeny.

I certainly didn't make this up - believe me I'm not that creative.

 

[Irvine511]

Call religion "shit" doesn't exactly yell out that you're on the fence about the whole thing. You'll have to pardon the interpretation. Curiously I believe the Name calling started with "shit" beliefs if you care to scroll up. So, ah, lets not nail ourselves up on the cross now, huh?

go back and read. i've already explained this.

i called Creationism, in the context of a science class, "shit."

and it is.

but you needed a reason to get angry, so you invented one.

 

[Snowlock]

So teach it in a bloody religious studies class! Along with all the other theories of creation.

It has no basis in scientific fact and therefore no place in a biology class.

And I guess nobody is going to tell me whether all the disabled children out there are disabled due to their parents sinning.

That is an option. Or a better option would probably be a separate evolution course.

I have no idea what you are talking about though with the disabled children's parents sinning though. If you have a lack of beliefs and it's based on someone saying that to you; well; that's just sad.

 

[BEAL]

This sums up the general theistic position quite well in my view, especially that hald by individuals who take the Bible to be a literal account of events. "Too awesome to not want to believe" seems to provide the primary reason for many theists holding their beliefs but this has no logical connection the existential status of a divine being or any of the purported events mentioned in the Bible. I'd love to think that U2 are about to do a concert in my house but wanting to believe that this is the case has no bearing on the truth of the matter.

I've been interested to read through this discussion. It always baffles me how the US, a country that claims to be so advanced can remain such a stronghold for creationism.

Excellent post.

 

[INDY500]

Is no one going to defend Western Europe with it's secular society and values as a better place to live than America and it's antiquated Judeo-Christian moral values. That Europe has a stronger identity, a more robust economy and most of all a brighter future.

Because that's the theory I'm hearing espoused.

 

[CTU2fan]

Edit: Too late.

 

[Snowlock]

go back and read. i've already explained this.

i called Creationism, in the context of a science class, "shit."

and it is.

but you needed a reason to get angry, so you invented one.

Nope, still not angry. But if someone calls my beliefs "shit" then I'll respond in kind.

 

[Irvine511]

Nope, still not angry. But if someone calls my beliefs "shit" then I'll respond in kind.

Creationism, as science, is shit.

 

[CTU2fan]

And I guess nobody is going to tell me whether all the disabled children out there are disabled due to their parents sinning.

Of course they are. I think that's also why a lot of single Mom's are poor...it's not because men aren't stepping up and taking care of the kids, it's because they SINNED.

BTW agree 100% with Irvine on this one...except I do wish we knew exactly when "Creation Week" happened, I'd love a few more paid holidays.

Teach all the religious theories of creation in a religion/philosophy class, hell do it in social studies if you want...leave the hocus pocus out of science class, thanks.

 

[Irvine511]

Is no one going to defend Western Europe with it's secular society and values as a better place to live than America and it's antiquated Judeo-Christian moral values. That Europe has a stronger identity, a more robust economy and most of all a brighter future.

Because that's the theory I'm hearing espoused.

Europeans are arguably free-er than Americans are.

Europe is a wonderful place to live.

i woudl argue that what holds Europeans back is not religion, or lack of religion, but on sclerotic cultural notions of what it means to be French, or German, or Italian. blood-and-soil understandings of nationality are increasingly irrelevant in the 21st century. this is where America has always done well -- we have no myth of origin. we are not from the soil of our nation. we are all immigrants, to an extent.

 

[anitram]

I have no idea what you are talking about though with the disabled children's parents sinning though. If you have a lack of beliefs and it's based on someone saying that to you; well; that's just sad.

Then you haven't read the whole thread - I posted about this on p. 4.

And I have no lack of beliefs, thanks.

 

[INDY500]

I provided you a link. It's stated in the creation museum in Kentucky that congenital defects are a result of sin, not recessive genes. That is why the children of Adam and Eve could marry and not produce inbred, genetically inferior progeny.

I certainly didn't make this up - believe me I'm not that creative.

They can only be referring to Original sin. From whence all human suffering can be traced.

 

[CTU2fan]

Europeans are arguably free-er than Americans are.

Europe is a wonderful place to live.

i woudl argue that what holds Europeans back is not religion, or lack of religion, but on sclerotic cultural notions of what it means to be French, or German, or Italian. blood-and-soil understandings of nationality are increasingly irrelevant in the 21st century. this is where America has always done well -- we have no myth of origin. we are not from the soil of our nation. we are all immigrants, to an extent.

Yep, nationalism kinda sucks. But that's a whole other topic.

 

[Snowlock]

Excellent post.

Except that it doesn't sum up the theistic position very well at all. Personally, I believe in God, and Jesus and all that stuff, but I'm not sure how much of the Bible is true. I view the Garden Of Eden as a parable as do I much of especially the Old Testament stuff. You're painting a huge group of people with a very broad brush if you are saying we all believe that God appeared in the burning bush.

 

[diamond]

Ladies and Gentlemen of Interference:

I addressed this whole topic years ago in a thread.
You will find all of the answers of how God created our earth and other planets and why there are dinosaur bones in our planet, pre Adamite bones, cavemen bones etc etc.

And no, dinosaurs were not on the Ark with Noah.

http://forum.interference.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59784&highlight=Reconcile+Adam

Enjoy.

dbs

 

[Snowlock]

Then you haven't read the whole thread - I posted about this on p. 4.

And I have no lack of beliefs, thanks.

So the page number matters? Or the fact that you look down on believers because some whack job said that birth defects come from sin matters?