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Old 03-02-2002, 04:38 AM   #1
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Could this be the END Times as we know it?

Okay so it's 3am here so that may explain a little. Outside we are having a bad winter storm with ice/sleet and strong winds right now and snow on the way. Did I just hear thunder, yes I did. Yesterday it was in the 50's, right now its below zero with wind chill.

Theres the strange and unusual weather we hear of.

What about "wars and rumors of wars", okay we got that one covered too.

I always hear that the same generation alive when Israel becomes a nation will witness the 2nd coming of Christ. Hmmmm, I wonder how they define generation considering people lived to be 800 years old too. I've also heard of the phrophecised fire-breathing dragons in the desert as being M1-Abrahms tanks.

Does this make any sense to anyone? Am I too far out there for my own good with this? And would we really want to know? Does Iraq launch an attack on Israel? And who is the anti-christ, certainly he is poised and aware of who and what he is. Does he not know he will be defeated though? Can't he read the Bible for gosh sakes?


And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
-Revelations 6:8

And I should mention that the KKK (Klu KLux Klan) was given permission/permit to protest outside of a "gay" church, or a church that caters to GLBT folks here in Oklahoma City.

Bastards

I'm not stating an arguement here, rather I wish to hear your opinions which I hold in high regards.
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Old 03-02-2002, 04:52 AM   #2
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Originally posted by z edge:
Hmmmm, I wonder how they define generation considering people lived to be 800 years old too.
The generation thing has been brought up before in things I've read. Here's an excerpt from an encyclopedia I have:

"... A generation may mean a class of persons, that is, those characterized by certain qualities or conditions. The Bible speaks of "the generation of the righteous one" (Ps 14:5; 24:6; 112:2) and "a generation crooked and twisted," "a generation of perverseness." (De 32:5, 20; Pr 30:11-14) Jesus Christ, when on earth, spoke similarly of the people of the Jewish nation of that day, and the apostle Paul applied such terms to the world of his day in general, which was alienated from God.-Mt 12:39; 16:4; 17:17; Mr 8:38; Php 2:14, 15.

...
"This Generation" of Christ's Prophecies. When Bible prophecy speaks of "this generation," it is necessary to consider the context to determine what generation is meant. Jesus Christ, when denouncing the Jewish religious leaders, concluded by saying: "Truly I say to you, All these things will come upon this generation." History recounts that about 37 years later (in 70 C.E.) that contemporary generation personally experienced the destruction of Jerusalem, as foretold.-Mt 23:36.

Later that same day, Jesus again used practically the same words, saying: "Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur." (Mt 24:34) In this instance, Jesus was answering a question regarding the desolation of Jerusalem and its temple as well as regarding the sign of his presence and of the conclusion of the system of things. Before his reference to "this generation," however, he had focused his remarks specifically on his "coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" and the nearness of the Kingdom of God. Immediately afterward, he continued with references to his "presence." (Mt 24:30, 37, 39; Lu 21:27, 31) Jesus was using the word "generation" with reference to humans whose lives would in some way be associated with the foretold events.-Mt 24.

The people of this 20th-century generation living since 1914 have experienced these many terrifying events concurrently and in concentrated measure-international wars, great earthquakes, terrible pestilences, widespread famine, persecution of Christians, and other conditions that Jesus outlined in Matthew chapter 24, Mark chapter 13, and Luke chapter 21."

If you want more info about this encyclopedia...email me at raincoat_98@yahoo.com and I can get you a copy.


After reading Matthew it's very obvious it's the End Times. I'm glad you've studied it so well!!


[This message has been edited by ]{arao]{e (edited 03-02-2002).]
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Old 03-02-2002, 05:06 AM   #3
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Thank you for your compliment, I wouldn't say that I've studied it that well though LOL! I am a firm believer, yet I tend to lapse into the shadows a bit like, well most everyone I guess if not a little bit more.

And yes, the occourences of earthquakes has significantly increased every decade since the last century, they are almost common now. Here in Oklahoma city area, besides the Murrah bombing in 95 we had the may 3rd tornado that devestated the most populated area of our city and ran .5 to 1 mile wide and went almost 100 miles (that may be an exaggeration as far as the miles it traveled).

And thanks again for your post and comments
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Old 03-02-2002, 05:09 AM   #4
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Sorry this is just unreal, it has been sleeting real bad and we are predicted 4 inches of snow and everything is frozen, and not only is it thundering but now there is also lightning.
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Old 03-02-2002, 05:37 AM   #5
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K...well...it's really quiet here. I kinda envy you...in a weird way.
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Old 03-02-2002, 07:20 AM   #6
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we had some thunderstorms here that leveled a lot of the trees. my place had no power for like 3 days!!
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Old 03-02-2002, 10:22 AM   #7
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Brother Edge-
Ive been wondering the same thing boss.

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Old 03-02-2002, 10:52 AM   #8
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Rev, 8:10-11
"And the third angel sounded, and there fell from heaven a great star, burning as a torch, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of the waters; and the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter."


Maybe this is common knowledge to all of you, but apperently Wormwood is called "Chernobyl" in russian...
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Old 03-02-2002, 11:39 AM   #9
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Not to be nitpicking, but ]{arao]{e is a Jehovah's Witness. As such, the beliefs of this religion on the Bible widely differ from much of Christianity. Just a thing to keep in mind.

My beliefs on the end times do not stem from the Bible. It stems from the Marian apparitions of the last century. Mary's appearance at Fatima, Portugal in 1917 stated that Lucia, one of the children, would be alive for the "end times." She is currently in her mid to late 90s. Obviously, she cannot live forever!

Secondly, what I've learned from the apparitions, is that the "end times" are not fixed. Through prayer and reconciliation, we can change what happens to us. In fact, if the apparitions are correct, the curse of World War III was lifted from us by God, due to the prayers and conversion in the 1990s. Although events have been prescribed, we still have the choice on whether they occur.

What does trouble me is that the apparitions also state that the end will start upon the death of the current Pope, and that the next Pope will coincide with the appearance of the Anti-Christ (to clarify, the next elected Pope is to die before coronation, and his killer is supposed to assume the Papacy). To be clear, the Pope will not be the Anti-Christ. They are two separate individuals. 2/3 of the world is supposed to fall for this on top of it.

In addition, the "end" and the Last Judgment are two separate events. The "end" will be like the passing away of the old world and the birth of the new in Revelation. Basically, a huge purification, restoring the world to a state of paradise and purity. The "Last Judgment" is not to occur until much much later, perhaps decades and centuries.

Regardless, with the anti-Christ, the only way I can see that 2/3 scenario happening is if they appeal to conservative sensibilities to the far extreme. Basically, one big tent revival. Of course, conservative Catholics want to paint it as a liberal Pope, but, considering that all the eligible voting cardinals are conservative or more conservative than the current Pope, I highly doubt it. Of course, no one listens to me anyway...

Regardless, I would not worry about the "end times." They've been predicted since the Crusades. If they are meant to happen, then they are meant to happen. If the apparitions are any guide, God changes his mind a lot on "when" out of mercy for us. If you are truly concerned about the end times, I would pray for peace and the conversion of the hearts of the world.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[This message has been edited by melon (edited 03-02-2002).]
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Old 03-02-2002, 12:31 PM   #10
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I'm from Dallas, and this morning at 4 am, I was awake hearing the storm, also!

I do believe we are in the end times. In fact, just last night, I sat with my friend watching Megiddo. We discussed the end times. I told her that I'm not surprised that people will fall into this "one world government" thing, as I see in political discussions all the time that people are being readied and are quite open to globalization ideas.

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Old 03-02-2002, 06:24 PM   #11
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80's
I'm not familiar with that film/show you mention?

As far as a one-world government, haven't people always been weary of the United Nations to some extent keeping that in mind?

I heard something alarming recently about a microchip that can be implanted under your skin for identification purposes. SO am I to assume that terroist's and terror attacks could pushing us in this direction (one more good reason to rid them)?

Lastly, I am going to start working with the DOD (department of defense) in a little over a week, so I have a little concern about "microchips".
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Old 03-02-2002, 06:38 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
Not to be nitpicking, but ]{arao]{e is a Jehovah's Witness. As such, the beliefs of this religion on the Bible widely differ from much of Christianity. Just a thing to keep in mind.

My beliefs on the end times do not stem from the Bible. It stems from the Marian apparitions of the last century. Mary's appearance at Fatima, Portugal in 1917 stated that Lucia, one of the children, would be alive for the "end times." She is currently in her mid to late 90s. Obviously, she cannot live forever!

Secondly, what I've learned from the apparitions, is that the "end times" are not fixed. Through prayer and reconciliation, we can change what happens to us. In fact, if the apparitions are correct, the curse of World War III was lifted from us by God, due to the prayers and conversion in the 1990s. Although events have been prescribed, we still have the choice on whether they occur.

What does trouble me is that the apparitions also state that the end will start upon the death of the current Pope, and that the next Pope will coincide with the appearance of the Anti-Christ (to clarify, the next elected Pope is to die before coronation, and his killer is supposed to assume the Papacy). To be clear, the Pope will not be the Anti-Christ. They are two separate individuals. 2/3 of the world is supposed to fall for this on top of it.

In addition, the "end" and the Last Judgment are two separate events. The "end" will be like the passing away of the old world and the birth of the new in Revelation. Basically, a huge purification, restoring the world to a state of paradise and purity. The "Last Judgment" is not to occur until much much later, perhaps decades and centuries.

Regardless, with the anti-Christ, the only way I can see that 2/3 scenario happening is if they appeal to conservative sensibilities to the far extreme. Basically, one big tent revival. Of course, conservative Catholics want to paint it as a liberal Pope, but, considering that all the eligible voting cardinals are conservative or more conservative than the current Pope, I highly doubt it. Of course, no one listens to me anyway...

Regardless, I would not worry about the "end times." They've been predicted since the Crusades. If they are meant to happen, then they are meant to happen. If the apparitions are any guide, God changes his mind a lot on "when" out of mercy for us. If you are truly concerned about the end times, I would pray for peace and the conversion of the hearts of the world.

Melon

WoW Melon, as usual, you provide something very different and unique to the discussion which I gladly welcome

I am not familiar with this belief and it sounds as though we are cut a lot of slack, even though in the old testament they weren't given that much at all in comparison. As far as the Pope passing away, I wouldn't expect him to live forever either. It's sad to say, but every time you see the guy on tv you can't help but notice his failing appearance.

So if we prayed away and did enough good deads to defer WWIII in the 90's, does this mean we are again poised? I keep fearing that Iraq will attack Israel, and that everything will go nuts after that. I am also afraid, even though I whole-heartedly support Bush and this current war, that something could lead to nuclear weapons.

I've yet to hear any of the phrocephies regarding to 9/11. It is interesting how so many have blamed the Jews for this attack, and pretty intersting how some hate the Jews so much and us for being "infidels" and supporting Israel.

I'm straying off topic a bit I guess, but this must all come in to play. My army chaplain and friend told me back in 1996 that he believed the antichrist was alive and well, he didn't have any predictions as to who he might be though
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Old 03-02-2002, 08:38 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by z edge:
WoW Melon, as usual, you provide something very different and unique to the discussion which I gladly welcome
Knowledge was once my drug to cover up sorrow. I was sad a lot when I was younger.

Quote:
I am not familiar with this belief and it sounds as though we are cut a lot of slack, even though in the old testament they weren't given that much at all in comparison. As far as the Pope passing away, I wouldn't expect him to live forever either. It's sad to say, but every time you see the guy on tv you can't help but notice his failing appearance.
What is in the current Pope's favor is the fact that Parkinson's Disease is not fatal in itself. Of course, it looks disastrous, but that is what happens upon complete absence of dopamine from the brain. Parkinson's patients are given L-Dopa initially, which is converted into dopamine by cells in the brain. Hence, they have no symptoms. However, for some reason, in time, those converter cells die off, and L-Dopa is useless. What is sick is that there are methods to create pure dopamine to deliver to these patients, but it is not considered "cost effective" to the pharmaceutical industry.

Regardless, despite his physical frailties, he could easily live another decade.

Quote:
So if we prayed away and did enough good deads to defer WWIII in the 90's, does this mean we are again poised? I keep fearing that Iraq will attack Israel, and that everything will go nuts after that. I am also afraid, even though I whole-heartedly support Bush and this current war, that something could lead to nuclear weapons.
World War III is officially and forever forgiven. God's mercy is one way in that He won't make things worse on us. We could easily have more forgiven, but most of us do not pray enough. Even I am guilty of that. We do not seem to understand the power of prayer. It is like a petition to God, and the more that people pray, the more strength that petition has. It is like collecting signatures on a paper petition. One signature has little impact, but millions have strength.

Quote:
I've yet to hear any of the phrocephies regarding to 9/11. It is interesting how so many have blamed the Jews for this attack, and pretty intersting how some hate the Jews so much and us for being "infidels" and supporting Israel.
There are many here who are leading us astray, and I blame that mostly on most of our adherences to old prophesies regarding the Second Coming, much like the Pharisees did with Jesus' first arrival. It was nothing as they had expected, and, hence, they rejected Him. Will we do the same for the Second Coming? Human nature is sadly quite predictable, and God is not simply some fixed and immovable Being.

I do not believe in predestination. I believe that God may, in fact, know what will happen on the basis of what we currently do now, but we are so unpredictable that we constantly change what the future will ultimately be.

Quote:
I'm straying off topic a bit I guess, but this must all come in to play. My army chaplain and friend told me back in 1996 that he believed the antichrist was alive and well, he didn't have any predictions as to who he might be though
Well, if the anti-Christ was, indeed, human, he will have to be born and grow up. He may very well be walking amongst us, even as we speak. The predictions are that it will be a mirror of Christ's ministry on Earth: starts at age 30 and lasts for three years. Of course, it is simply a mockery. Whomever stated that evil didn't have a sense of irony?

Melon

------------------
"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 03-03-2002, 05:01 AM   #14
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Melon,
One thing I have learned from you in the past year is that you stand by your point and stick with your beliefs, and I commend you for that.

In this thread, I have no disagreement with you as of now and I am wanting to learn more about our destiny here. I will say, as much as I stray in life I am a believer in the word of God. I sense that you are as well, and you bring up some interesting points to counter traditional teachings, yet bringing in the same outcome I think?

I believe you once called me a "social liberal" and I don't remember the rest of what you called me. But I find it funny that we can agree on topics like the one going now by Johnny Swallow and some in the past on that subject and possibly this one, yet be so far apart when it comes to politics (G.W. Bush)

I sympathize with you being sad as a child, as was I. The truth is that a sad child can make a glad adult, given the right circumstances. I for one am proof. I almost lost my mother to lopus at an early age, and dealt with her illness my whole childhood. Thank God she is still here today, but it was never easy for our family regardless of how "charmed" our appearances were. I feel that in your group of friends they look at you for guidance, and you are intregal to their growth with your knowledge and leadership.

Back to the topic, my friend says that God's gonna flush the toilet soon. Do I see it as THAT bad really, and am I really looking?

God Bless,
Brother Melon

[This message has been edited by z edge (edited 03-03-2002).]
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Old 03-03-2002, 06:02 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
It stems from the Marian apparitions of the last century. Mary's appearance at Fatima, Portugal in 1917 stated that Lucia, one of the children, would be alive for the "end times." She is currently in her mid to late 90s. Obviously, she cannot live forever!
What does trouble me is that the apparitions also state that the end will start upon the death of the current Pope

melon,

I'm curious why you believe the words of an apparition instead of Jesus (who said, 'No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father' - Matthew 24:36). Do you believe that Jesus did not in fact speak those words? That he changed his mind?

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Old 03-03-2002, 06:48 AM   #16
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melon you mentioned apparitions once before and I was going to ask you, do you believe in them? And not just that they 'are', but that they send messages as well? Anyone else too, fors and z edge.
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Old 03-03-2002, 07:28 AM   #17
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Well, this is my understanding of an apparition. We call them apparitions because we don't know exactly what they are. 'Apparition' itself is a vague term meaning something like a vision but doesn't convey whether it is something real or not.

Anyway, I tend to the belief that there are devils/spirits who assume the form of people (among other things) in order to deceive or frighten us. This is why I don't believe in ghosts (the popular definition of a ghost) anymore.

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Old 03-03-2002, 08:28 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by foray:
I'm curious why you believe the words of an apparition instead of Jesus (who said, 'No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father' - Matthew 24:36). Do you believe that Jesus did not in fact speak those words? That he changed his mind?
This is not contradicted. Mary states that anyone who claims to know the exact date/time, God will purposely change the date if He has to to prove them wrong, and even she does not know the exact day/hour. The only exceptions are that such knowledge has been given only to a couple people, one of whom is never allowed to tell and one who is allowed to tell only eight days beforehand, as to allow us a brief time for quick repentance.

Once again, you risk having the faith of a Pharisee, whose narrow interpretation of the Bible blinded them of the Messiah directly in front of them. Either way, the "end" does not concern me. If it happens in my lifetime, I'm ready. If it doesn't happen for another millennium, I'm certainly unphased by it.

Melon

------------------
"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 03-03-2002, 08:36 AM   #19
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Quote:
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Well, this is my understanding of an apparition. We call them apparitions because we don't know exactly what they are. 'Apparition' itself is a vague term meaning something like a vision but doesn't convey whether it is something real or not.
Semantics...

Does it not say that, before the end, that people will see visions? I think this was in Revelation, but I cannot seem to find the appropriate passages.

Quote:
Anyway, I tend to the belief that there are devils/spirits who assume the form of people (among other things) in order to deceive or frighten us. This is why I don't believe in ghosts (the popular definition of a ghost) anymore.
In that case, I think Pat Robertson is a "ghost." Anyway, these apparitions are reassuring, not scary.

Melon

------------------
"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 03-03-2002, 08:43 AM   #20
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I don't believe in apparitions, and I don't see why a One World government is something to be feared about.

Apparitions have always been ubiquitous, and more often than not, modern science and logic can explain the invisible strings behind the puppetry, and when the apparitions have been too fantastical for explanation, it is almost too easy to simply say that the one who had the apparition is a liar, or self-deluded.

Notice how most Christian apparitions take place in either extremely Catholic places or relatively poor countries; in Mexico where I visit my Mexican branch of the family the cities are littered with apparitions from people; who is one to believe, and why should one believe it?

If there is anything to believe in, one may as well inspect the literature echoing the sentiments of the Bible, whether pyschological or poetical, such as W.B. YEats, whose poetry you can NOT escape from without having to read pages-full about the Second Coming, and the apocalypse. Yeats also explored this idea of the 'spinning gyres', that we are constantly in a complex cycle reaching troughs and peaks, and according to his calculations, we are about to reach the all time low, or trough, as it were, before climbing up to the highest peak.

However, it is not something novel. So many versions and so many predictions have made me indifferent to the 'End Times', there is simply too many people to believe in, and so many people say so many different things. The one common factor is that something bad will happen, and you don't need a prophet to tell you that; bad things happen all the time, and some even go on to change the world. Put your trust in sound logic echoed by reason, and not some publicized prediction that the Media circus has had a recent lech on.

As for the question of faith, I find the coming of the Anti-Christ both an occasion worthy of anticipation and keen interest. And why not? It proposes so many different factors one almost is lost in a flurrish of intellectual activity. It also proposes change and progress. Advancement in the long term, is always a good thing.

It is hard for me, I must confess, to believe in the Anti-Christ in the conventional way, for I don't believe in the devil. I don't believe in Satan as I don't believe in Angels and what have you - I believe in God and all that God encompasses, the good and the bad. I believe that there is such a thing as a right and a wrong, that there is Evil to be challenged, for the survival of Mankind, but this Evil is not as clear-cut and defined as 'The One sent By Satan', I think that 'Evil' is never as simple as that; for us to stare at Evil in the face, we need nothing further to do than to look at the mirror and have one long dark tea-time with the soul, as Douglas Adams would say. Vice and virtue go hand in hand like darkness and light, as well as Good and Evil, and God is ultimately the unifying factor of such contradictions. I belive that God's proof of power and existence is the ability to overcome such contradictions.

One could consider Hitler to be the anti-christ, withi his awesome oratory abilities, his magnetic charisma, his fierce passion and his greatness. Oh, he comitted great evil, there's no doubt about that, but he was also great. I believe, however, that in this age of technology and terrorism, behind the scenes warfare and conspiracy theories, the next 'anti-christ' will be much more covert, much more secretive, so much so we may never know he (or she) was here.

Ultimately, I believe that some nasty stuff is ahead of us, and we should be prepared for it. However, don't put your faith too blindly into superstitions, apparitions and religion even, not because they are fundamentally wrong, but because the picture they paint may not be the truthful one. Believing too much in what has yet to happen may prevent you from realising that the 'end times' is indeed occuring. One thing most prophecies leave out is that the Apocalypse may be a subtle thing.

Ant.

[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited 03-03-2002).]
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