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Old 03-03-2002, 08:45 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem:
melon you mentioned apparitions once before and I was going to ask you, do you believe in them? And not just that they 'are', but that they send messages as well? Anyone else too, fors and z edge.
I do not know exactly. Mary does only appear to Catholics; however, she also stated that she will only appear to those who believe. Since Protestants generally refuse to believe, she doesn't appear to them.

Anyway, it is too late to book an appearance. She states that Medjugorje, the most common place for activity, is her last place. Once she disappears for good from here, she states that the end is only a very very short time afterwards. Currently, she still appears monthly.

To set the record, Catholicism has only approved two apparition sites as "authentic" and worthy of total belief, and that is Fatima (1917) and Guadalupe (back in the 1500s). The rest are still under investigation, including Medjugorje.

Regardless, authentic or not, the knowledge I have learned from them I find comforting. The idea of prayer, repentance, and love are ideas that I don't think Christians would dispute.

And I have not put so much faith into them that my faith in God would be shattered if all were proven to be wrong. We have to be mindful that people have been predicting "the end" repeatedly since the Crusades. With holy wars (1100-1300) and corrupt popes (Middle Ages) and a wholly worldly hierachy (Middle Ages), along with the Bubonic Plague (1300s) and almost incessant wars until the end of World War II, you can easily see why the world was far worse for them than it is for us.

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

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Old 03-03-2002, 05:15 PM   #22
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Anthony,
I respect your right to opinion and you choice of religion. I am curious to what religion you believe, I'm not sure if I caught that or if you even stated it. I know christianity dosen't encourage/allow people to pick and choose the parts that are convienent to them and discard the rest.

I'm not saying that you are doing that, I commented because I am not sure what religion you are mentioning or from what basis.

[This message has been edited by z edge (edited 03-03-2002).]
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Old 03-03-2002, 06:57 PM   #23
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z edge;

I don't have a religion, to be perfectly frank. When I am asked what religion I follow, I say that I'm not religious, but spiritual - to use the cliche.

I was educated and raised (for a large part of my life) in an all Boys Catholic Boarding School and a Roman Catholic Convent, hence I was raised a Catholic.

However, I also lived in various parts of the world and spent a good portion of my life in the Middle East, and was subjected to some other religions, one day it just came to me that they all said the same thing; they were and are all the same.

That's not to say that I lost faith in them, I didn't - I respect and love Jesus Christ as much as I respect and love the Prophet Mohammed, however I could not commit to one religion at all, none of them answered my own questions, none of them fulfilled me.

Now, I dedicate a lot of my time with Stoic philosophy and certain Yoga practices, with particular meditation; what I am essentially trying to do is combine all the religions and unify them in what they say, instead of distinguishing between them.

Anyway, my spirituality is far more complicated than my religion (which is non-existant); I have no religion except the religion of loving God through loving Humanity. I believe that to find God we need to love and be loved, unconditionally.

Anyway, thats a rap.

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Old 03-03-2002, 08:48 PM   #24
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I believe that to find God we need to love and be loved, unconditionally.

Anyway, thats a rap.

Ant. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi Anthony,
The good news is that God does love us unconditionally. And if we just accept his free gift of salvation, we become his children. It's free for teh taking. All you have to do is ask.

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Old 03-03-2002, 08:57 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Hi Anthony,
The good news is that God does love us unconditionally. And if we just accept his free gift of salvation, we become his children. It's free for teh taking. All you have to do is ask.
Thank you 80s. I do know that God loves us unconditionally, I do know that that is Its free gift of salvation, and I do know that we are Its children.

Yes, all we have to do is but to ask, however, where we differ is that in order to not only become Its children, to live in grace, we need to do more than just 'ask' and seek salvation in a confession box. It is all very well to confess your sins and repent truly and then commit it all over again, however, what about you as a human being? What about perfection? Jesus once asked us to be perfect, and I believe that the whole point of Life is to become perfect, to find union with God.

I am sorry, but confessing to a stranger and then being absolved of all sin is not only too convenient and easy, but it lacks the discipline human beings deserve in order to achieve perfection.

Having said that, God DOES love us unconditionally. However, God and Love were never the problem, Humans were. Life doesn't change God, it changes Humanity.

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Old 03-03-2002, 10:21 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony:
Thank you 80s. I do know that God loves us unconditionally, I do know that that is Its free gift of salvation, and I do know that we are Its children.

we need to do more than just 'ask' and seek salvation in a confession box. It is all very well to confess your sins and repent truly and then commit it all over again, however, what about you as a human being? What about perfection? Jesus once asked us to be perfect, and I believe that the whole point of Life is to become perfect, to find union with God.

I am sorry, but confessing to a stranger and then being absolved of all sin is not only too convenient and easy, but it lacks the discipline human beings deserve in order to achieve perfection.

Having said that, God DOES love us unconditionally. However, God and Love were never the problem, Humans were. Life doesn't change God, it changes Humanity.
Ant.
I understand what you're saying, but I don't confess my sins to man. I confess them straight to God's ear.

Salvation is a perfectly free gift. It has to be free, because I could never be "good enough" to earn it. That's teh entire point of the cross. The cost of sin is death. The only way for man to be free of this debt is for a perfect man to die for the rest. That's what Christ did. his perfect blood paid the price for my sin. And once I accepted that gift, I was forgiven. Not just for my sins before that point, but the Bible makes it clear that teh forgiveness is for sins past, present, and future. Now that I have Jesus in my heart, my sins are forgiven even before I ask.
So does that mean that I am free to do whatever I want, simply because I am forgiven? God forbid! Rather, because I am forgiven, because I am "born again" (Jesus'
words, not just mine), the Holy Spirit has entered into me and I now have his power to resist temptation, and the responsibility to rely on his power, rather than relying on my own strength. My power is useless. It is only His power that saves. it is only His power that is victorious.
You wite about the "discipline" humans need to achieve perfection. But the Bible makes it clear that humans don't have any discipline to achieve perfection. It's just not there. Rather, God wants us to rely completely on Himself and His righteousness. For, as the Bible says, our righteousness "is as dirty rags", but the righteousness he gives to us when we give him control is perfect.
The perfection Jesus speaks of is the exacty opposite of "human discipline". It is the fact that through God's grace, He gives us His spirit. The Bible says that when you become a Christian, you are a "new creation". It tells us that the "sin nature" is "crucified with Christ". Does that mean that we no longer sin? No, because we indulge in the desires of the flesh (which is tempted by the Devil). But our spirit, which is who we really are, is made new when we become Christians. That's where the struggle comes in - where the spirit (that desires only the good and perfect will of God) is in conflict with the desires of the imperfect flesh (which is being lied to by Satan, being told that we want to disobey God).
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Old 03-03-2002, 10:41 PM   #27
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80s...
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Old 03-03-2002, 11:26 PM   #28
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Once again, you risk having the faith of a Pharisee, whose narrow interpretation of the Bible blinded them of the Messiah directly in front of them. Either way, the "end" does not concern me. If it happens in my lifetime, I'm ready. If it doesn't happen for another millennium, I'm certainly unphased by it.

Fair enough; I was a little offended you said that but it is true what you say (that it's easy to be like a Pharisee). However, I don't think that asking you to elaborate on your opinion shows that I plan to keep my 'narrow interpretation' of Scripture. Gimme some credit eh, melon? <g>

I myself don't put much thought into the endtimes any more; if it happens it happens. I was only concerned because your post about the end time prophecies by those people you mentioned seemed to invoke more fear/alarm than anything else. I didn't want z edge or anyone to get freaked because of it, because the fact remains that we do not know when the endtimes will happen.

I dunno who Pat Robertson is.

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Old 03-04-2002, 12:02 AM   #29
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And Jesus is a Republican.

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Old 03-04-2002, 12:32 AM   #30
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Thanks, Melon for identifying where the information comes from that I published. It just goes to show Jehovah's Witnesses are known for their study of the Holy Scriptures.

It seems to me that you've managed to lead the conversation into an entirely NEW thread AGAIN.

I thought z edge was looking for some evidence that this was the END TIMES as recorded in the Bible. Matthew chapter 24 has a really clear outline of what he's talking about.

I'm personally amazed at the fact there is STILL a group left on earth that does carry out Matthew 24:14 and therefore fulfills prophecy. Considering all the atrocities done to Christians throughout the ages who simply wanted to just read the bible and do what it says.

Z-Edge...the point you made about the Chaplain telling you about the Antichrist being alive today is absolutely true. He of all people should know because the Pope is an antichrist..and that's why he was hesitant in telling you WHO it was...if he really wanted to know WHO it was ;o). The definition of antichrist is this:

Antichrist means against or instead of Christ. The term applies to all who deny what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, all who oppose his Kingdom, and all who mistreat his followers. It also includes individuals, organizations, and nations that falsely claim to represent Christ or that improperly ascribe to themselves the role of Messiah.

Think about this the next time your Chaplain blesses your efforts for war. Think about this the next time the Pope apologizes for all the detestable things the members of his church and those in alliance with it have done to people...little boys too.

1 John 2:18: "Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour."



[This message has been edited by ]{arao]{e (edited 03-03-2002).]
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Old 03-04-2002, 01:08 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by ]{arao]{e:
Antichrist means against or instead of Christ. The term applies to all who deny what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, all who oppose his Kingdom, and all who mistreat his followers. It also includes individuals, organizations, and nations that falsely claim to represent Christ or that improperly ascribe to themselves the role of Messiah
I don't remember the Pope doing that.

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Old 03-04-2002, 10:13 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by ]{arao]{e:
Thanks, Melon for identifying where the information comes from that I published. It just goes to show Jehovah's Witnesses are known for their study of the Holy Scriptures.
It seems to me that you've managed to lead the conversation into an entirely NEW thread AGAIN.
[This message has been edited by ]{arao]{e (edited 03-03-2002).]
I think Melon was simply pointing out that major differences do exist between Jehovah's Witnesses and traditional Christianity. I think that's an important thing to know when considering end time prophecy.
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Old 03-04-2002, 10:16 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Discoteque:
80s...
Thanks, Discoteque, right back at ya!
The "gospel of works" bothers me, because it's very clear that we can never be good enough to live up to God's standards. That's one thing Bono has in common with me...we both love to talk about grace.

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Old 03-04-2002, 10:25 AM   #34
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God Is Going To Come and Take Z-Edge and Marry Him Off To The Oldest Woman in the World!


and we all invited.............
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Old 03-04-2002, 11:02 AM   #35
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I'm going to write here something a little bit deferent from all tha all of you have writen. I'll not write about prophecies, words, bible, I will write about one thought that I had in my head for a long time and it's shifting of HOPE and FEAR...

2000 years ago christians started to expect the second coming of Jesus with hope and joy. And now when we talk about the "end of the world" we speak of it with fear. If we believe, and if we think that we are the true believers than we should also expect that day with great joy and happiness believing that this world will come to end and that the reign of Jesus and harmony will begin...

I don't know if I would like that day to come just now - I have a lot of confession to make - but I' trying to look at it positively rather than in fear of big terrible and punishing god. I don't want to belive or follow the God who takes pleasure in punishemet, I belive in mercifull God. That's why I don't like to talk religion with realy old people - they are often to fatal and dark, and God should be, or rather IS full of joy and happiness...

I'm afraid that I'll start to rumble so I'll stop now...

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Old 03-04-2002, 12:31 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by foray:
I myself don't put much thought into the endtimes any more; if it happens it happens. I was only concerned because your post about the end time prophecies by those people you mentioned seemed to invoke more fear/alarm than anything else.
Exactly, foray.
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Old 03-04-2002, 04:04 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by ]{arao]{e:
Z-Edge...the point you made about the Chaplain telling you about the Antichrist being alive today is absolutely true. He of all people should know because the Pope is an antichrist..and that's why he was hesitant in telling you WHO it was...if he really wanted to know WHO it was ;o). The definition of antichrist is this:


Think about this the next time your Chaplain blesses your efforts for war. Think about this the next time the Pope apologizes for all the detestable things the members of his church and those in alliance with it have done to people...little boys too.


[This message has been edited by ]{arao]{e (edited 03-03-2002).]
Well if the Pope is an antichrist, then there are a lot of catholics that are in serious trouble! Of course, that would explain U2's unusual popularity; dress up as the devil and then make a deal with the Pope (the sunglass thing was a nice touch too) and you'll get 7 grammys!

I don't know what to say about your last part there. War is not the answer, but that depends on the question too. Many people join military service to protect and help others, not because they enjoy killing or being killed.

I would say our chaplain blessed our peace efforts and not our war efforts. If he didn't- if nobody did, wouldn't it be like Vietnam all over again? Soldiers go and risk their lives to come home and be spit upon.

I don't think a comment about little boys is a good one to make here because it does not apply to every priest and of course it should be apologized for.
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Old 03-04-2002, 04:23 PM   #38
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by ]{arao]{e:
[B]
Think about this the next time the Pope apologizes for all the detestable things the members of his church have done to...little boys too.
[B][QUOTE]

Can we Just assume you are an undercover Southern Baptist.

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Old 03-04-2002, 06:57 PM   #39
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Don't know I know exactly what you are doing. You are trying to convert people deceptively to your faith. I am simply telling people what you are up to, without judging who you are. If they wish to follow up anyway, then I will have no personal objection.

I'm posting a whole bunch of criticisms of Jehovah's Witnesses. Cringe, because I know you aren't allowed to read them. Because I'm nice, I'm warning you ahead of time. Don't read any further, because I am criticizing.

*********************************

Quote:
Originally posted by ]{arao]{e:
It just goes to show Jehovah's Witnesses are known for their study of the Holy Scriptures.
LOL...the only reason you quote from the Watchtower is because you aren't allowed to quote from anywhere else! It is so nice that they maintain a monopoly on Biblical interpretation for its followers.

Quote:
He of all people should know because the Pope is an antichrist..and that's why he was hesitant in telling you WHO it was...if he really wanted to know WHO it was ;o).
So this is the newest tripe from the Watchtower? How funny that the JW's maintain a hierachy even more oppressive and controlling than the Catholic Church ever was. Need I remind you that, according to the JW's, that Jesus was killed on a tree, not a cross?

Quote:
Antichrist means against or instead of Christ. The term applies to all who deny what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, all who oppose his Kingdom, and all who mistreat his followers. It also includes individuals, organizations, and nations that falsely claim to represent Christ or that improperly ascribe to themselves the role of Messiah.
This seems to be an apt description of the Watchtower. Heavily revisionist interpretations of the Bible that cannot be surmised in any capacity (see "tree"), keeping the Kingdom open to only 144,000 who belong to the JW's, that, I must remind people, takes a monopoly on Christianity. Yes, all non-JWs are going to hell, and most of the JWs, aside from the 144,000, are going with them. Mistreated followers? You are forced to mourn life, not even allowed to celebrate birthdays or holidays, are not allowed to be patriotic in any capacity, those who leave the JWs are shunned, and you aren't allowed to view or read anything not handed by the Watchtower. And, considering, that the JWs maintain a monopoly on Christianity, they certainly pass the criteria on falsely claiming to represent Christ.

You, of all people, should understand that.

Quote:
Think about this the next time your Chaplain blesses your efforts for war. Think about this the next time the Pope apologizes for all the detestable things the members of his church and those in alliance with it have done to people...little boys too.
Well, it is because of this little passage that I decided to write this big article criticizing your religion. I've been very nice, but you crossed the line.

Lest we forget, the JW's predicted the end of the world more than once and failed, despite the fact that the Bible specifically states that no one will know the exact time of the end. The Millerites, the religion it split off from in the 19th century, collapsed for failing to predict the end of the world several times over.

You thin my patience...

Melon

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[This message has been edited by melon (edited 03-04-2002).]
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Old 03-05-2002, 02:31 AM   #40
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Uh, Melon...please don't attack my religion like you know what it's about. You don't, I do.

And as always..you're taking the discussion into a totally different area...that has nothing to do with the original question that z-edge posted to all of us and our VARIOUS faiths. You have a faith I presume and it influences your remarks and rants just like my religion influences my train of thought.

All anyone has to do is read the bible and the WATCHTOWER. They are offered regularly to anyone interested in Bible prophecy, like z-edge. No, I won't consider you to be a mindless zombie for reading them ).

Thanks AGAIN for bringing attention to the WATCHTOWER magazines that are widely recognized by people as being published by the Jehovah's Witnesses who study the BIBLE in depth concerning biblical prophecy and end-times. They have made it really easy for me to understand Bible prophecy and have made it enjoyable to learn.




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