Could I bring the KKK to speak in public schools during Black History Month?

[onebloodonelife]

Oh and speaking of the Danbury situation, what the hell exactly is a "former homosexual"? Did she experiment in college, kiss a girl at a party or something, and is now doing her pennance? I didn't think sexuality was like religion where you can wake up one day & just switch...silly me.

Apparently, a "former homosexual" is someone who was a practicing homosexual, then through intensive prayer and Bible study, switched sides. There was a whole story about it on AC360 the other night...I'll try to find some clips, very interesting, but so completely wrong.

 

[redhotswami]

...or maybe a case in point. After all, fundie groups have been actively recruiting for decades now. Perhaps Dubya and his ilk are some of the fruits of their labour. I'm often shocked by how conservative, and in many cases rigid, many young people I meet are.

Really! Wow, I mean, I can see that, I certainly saw it in Jesus Camp. But thankfully, I've met many youth who are very liberal.

 

[redhotswami]

Would you all not agree that this issue is still 'political'? I realize that most here would not like it to be political -- but wouldn't you agree, it still is? Therefore, it would still be appropriate for others to protest/excercise free speech?

You killed my quote!
And, side note: it isn't political to homosexual youth, nor to children of homosexual couples. The Day of Silence isn't even promoting homosexuality. It is about respect. Beliefs are debatable, respect is not.

 

[MadelynIris]

You killed my quote!

Yes, it was intentional.

I understand the intent of the day of silence, and I respect it. I think it's a good thing.

But if you think it's only about respect... Kids are bullied for a lot of different things... are you ok with having days for all of those various things? Smart kids, fat kids, geeky kids, bald kids, short kids, goth kids, emo kids, jock kids, etc...

Perhaps we could expand the list to...

Pro-Gun kids
Pro-Abortion Kids
Anti-Gun Kids
Anti-Abortion Kids
Pre-Marital Sex Kids
Anti pre-marital sex kids
Pro-Rap Culture Kids
Anti-Pro Rap Culture Kids


Does it make any sense to protest days dedicated to respecting kids in the top group? Guess not. Bottom group? Hmm... Where do the LGBT kids fit? Unfortunately, somewhere in the middle.

 

[Ormus]

Would you all not agree that this issue is still 'political'? I realize that most here would not like it to be political -- but wouldn't you agree, it still is? Therefore, it would still be appropriate for others to protest/excercise free speech?

No. It may be "political" to heterosexuals, but to generations of homosexuals, it is their lives. Telling them that they have to accept jeers, insults, and protests because some people think it's as political as abortion or gambling is as insulting as telling blacks to sit in the back of the bus, because some white people aren't comfortable with them anywhere else.

 

[verte76]

I'm a little disturbed that someone would want to do this, just like, as you say, the KKK coming in during Black History Month. Yes, he has freedom of speech rights, but I'm tired of homophobia in the name of Christ, as a Catholic Christian myself.

 

[Ormus]

On a side note, I kind of feel bad for those who are bullied and not LGBT. I guess they have their day... I'm just not sure it's publicized as much.

Historically, try telling your principal that you're getting homophobic insults thrown at you or being beaten up because you're gay, and if you're actually gay and the principal thinks its "immoral," then he/she would just ignore your complaints and think that you deserve it. And, in some cases, the principal would actually join in on the slurs.

So, for most gay youth, the only option is "silence," because there's no one to turn to for help. And that's the point of the "Day of Silence." If you're a non-LBGT getting bullied, you have a whole myriad of officials to turn to. If the principal is failing you? You have your parents, which is not always the case with LBGT students if their parents think that they're "immoral." In fact, like the aforementioned hypothetical principal, they may join in on the belittling and insults as well.

I don't think most people realize what it is like to live in an environment where everyone potentially could hate you. Even with anti-Semitism and the civil rights movement, you, at least, had your family, your faith, and your community. Many LBGT students have none of the above, thanks to people who like to think of it is as "political."

That's why the "Day of Silence" was created, and I find your rather flippant statement above to be mildly insulting, even if it wasn't intentional.

 

[MadelynIris]

No. It may be "political" to heterosexuals, but to generations of homosexuals, it is their lives. Telling them that they have to accept jeers, insults, and protests because some people think it's as political as abortion or gambling is as insulting as telling blacks to sit in the back of the bus, because some white people aren't comfortable with them anywhere else.

Understood. But during that period of racial transition -- it was political. The country had to go through a process of change, that eventually led to legal changes.

The question is, and has been brought up in FYM from time to time, have we established enough legislation (discrimination laws, etc.. ) or do we need to do special things to call out special situations/rights for LGBT issues, TO INCLUDE banning or prohibiting folks to protest against any movements to further understanding/respect/and or the furthering of LGBT rights?

I think governments have established legislation or taken action against groups like the KKK from certain activities. Should we take that next step?

 

[Ormus]

Perhaps we could expand the list to...

Pro-Gun kids
Pro-Abortion Kids
Anti-Gun Kids
Anti-Abortion Kids
Pre-Marital Sex Kids
Anti pre-marital sex kids
Pro-Rap Culture Kids
Anti-Pro Rap Culture Kids


Does it make any sense to protest days dedicated to respecting kids in the top group? Guess not. Bottom group? Hmm... Where do the LGBT kids fit? Unfortunately, somewhere in the middle.

Why not expand the list further?

Pro-White kids
Anti-White kids
Pro-Black kids
Anti-Black kids
Pro-Jewish kids
Anti-Jewish kids
Pro-Muslim kids
Anti-Muslim kids
Pro-Christian kids
Anti-Christian kids
Pro-Nazi kids
Anti-Nazi kids

Lest you forget, being gay isn't a "hobby."

 

[Ormus]

The question is, and has been brought up in FYM from time to time, have we established enough legislation (discrimination laws, etc.. ) or do we need to do special things to call out special situations/rights for LGBT issues, TO INCLUDE banning or prohibiting folks to protest against any movements to further understanding/respect/and or the furthering of LGBT rights?

At the federal level and in most states, there is no legislation at all. So do I think there needs to be more? Certainly.

I think governments have established legislation or taken action against groups like the KKK from certain activities. Should we take that next step?

I doubt that there's legislation that specifically targets the KKK, for instance, because laws are not allowed to target a specific individual or type of organization.

 

[MadelynIris]

Historically, I remember getting bullied and having no where to turn to also. It was such common place, it was accepted. Maybe that's not the case today.

Look, as I said before, I think the "Day of Silence" is a good thing. My only concern with that particular event is to make sure it's inclusive to other groups also, whomever. I have no intention of offending you, and I can see how you might find this flippant, especially if you've so been hurt with no where to turn. But don't think for a minute, that others haven't been in a situation where there was no where to turn -- families, principles, etc... But I respect the fact that the LGBT community, especially the youth have been in this situation to the extreme.

Should we pass laws to prohibit others to say what they want about the "Day of Silence"? I'm not so sure. Have we passed laws to prohibit the KKK from marching in MLK day parades? I think some municipalities have attempted this kind of legislation, but traditionally it happens.

 

[Ormus]

Look, as I said before, I think the "Day of Silence" is a good thing. My only concern with that particular event is to make sure it's inclusive to other groups also, whomever. I have no intention of offending you, and I can see how you might find this flippant, especially if you've so been hurt with no where to turn. But don't think for a minute, that others haven't been in a situation where there was no where to turn -- families, principles, etc... But I respect the fact that the LGBT community, especially the youth have been in this situation to the extreme.

I think you see this as a holiday dedicated to bullying. If that were the case, I'd see your point more. It's more about the invisibility of the LBGT experience in schools. And it's more than just about bullying. People just automatically assume that everyone is heterosexual, for instance, and whole schools are crafted around that mindset. An easy example is the federal government's funding of "abstinence programs," whose message is completely heterosexist.

Should we pass laws to prohibit others to say what they want about the "Day of Silence"? I'm not so sure. Have we passed laws to prohibit the KKK from marching in MLK day parades? I think some municipalities have attempted this kind of legislation, but traditionally it happens.

Laws regarding the Day of Silence may or may not be necessary. Schools are not bastions of unlimited free speech like the town courthouse, for instance. And existing laws might be able to ban the "Day of Truth," because the event's purpose is tantamount to "ethnic intimidation" rather than any genuine event celebrating "Christian culture." Like I said before, it's like commemorating the Holocaust on one hand, and then allowing a neo-Nazi Holocaust denier to come up on stage afterwards to completely undo it.

If the courts allow the "Day of Truth," I think it would set a precedent that we would not want to set.

 

[BVS]

Yes, it was intentional.

I understand the intent of the day of silence, and I respect it. I think it's a good thing.

But if you think it's only about respect... Kids are bullied for a lot of different things... are you ok with having days for all of those various things? Smart kids, fat kids, geeky kids, bald kids, short kids, goth kids, emo kids, jock kids, etc...

Perhaps we could expand the list to...

Pro-Gun kids
Pro-Abortion Kids
Anti-Gun Kids
Anti-Abortion Kids
Pre-Marital Sex Kids
Anti pre-marital sex kids
Pro-Rap Culture Kids
Anti-Pro Rap Culture Kids


Does it make any sense to protest days dedicated to respecting kids in the top group? Guess not. Bottom group? Hmm... Where do the LGBT kids fit? Unfortunately, somewhere in the middle.

It amazes me how many people still don't get it...

 

[deep]

This year The National Day of Silence will be observed on April 18.

Jason Aufiero, an evangelical Christian and a senior at Northern Highlands, wanted to organize a "Day of Truth" on school grounds to present what his attorney's the conservative Christian Alliance Defense Fund calls the Bible-based position "that homosexual behavior is immoral."

Are these people any better than "Holocaust deniers"?


They each have their own "truths".

1. The Bible teaches hate.

2. sure, some Jews died during WWII,
but, the "truth" is that there was no real genocide.

So let's allow the Holocaust deniers to argue for "their truth" to our school children.

 

[MadelynIris]

BVS,

By "how many people", you mean me?

 

[BVS]

BVS,

By "how many people", you mean me?

You and many others.

I mean look at that list you made. Comparing political issues with someone's life, someone's sexuality? Quite discusting.

 

[MadelynIris]

I don't you read all my posts.

What don't I get?

 

[BVS]

I don't you read all my posts.

What don't I get?

I think I made it pretty clear.

 

[Snowlock]

So, it's anarchism for you then, eh?

You do realise there is a difference between freedom and discrimination, don't you?

Anarchism - Not at all. These can't protest violently, they can't protest in disruption of the other protest. But they can protest.

Discrimination isn't entering into this I don't think. It'd be discriminatory if the truth people were using the protest as a way to actively prevent the silent people from their protest.

Like during the civil rights movement in the US during the 60's, when the racist white people were staging protests at the school doors to prevent black people from entering, that's discrimatory and illegal. But if the protest was across the street, even though what they're protesting is wrong, it iss legal and it's also important that they have the right to do so.

 

[redhotswami]

Yes, it was intentional.

I understand the intent of the day of silence, and I respect it. I think it's a good thing.

But if you think it's only about respect... Kids are bullied for a lot of different things... are you ok with having days for all of those various things? Smart kids, fat kids, geeky kids, bald kids, short kids, goth kids, emo kids, jock kids, etc...

Perhaps we could expand the list to...

Pro-Gun kids
Pro-Abortion Kids
Anti-Gun Kids
Anti-Abortion Kids
Pre-Marital Sex Kids
Anti pre-marital sex kids
Pro-Rap Culture Kids
Anti-Pro Rap Culture Kids


Does it make any sense to protest days dedicated to respecting kids in the top group? Guess not. Bottom group? Hmm... Where do the LGBT kids fit? Unfortunately, somewhere in the middle.

Ormus already addressed this, but I was away so I'll respond with what I wanted to say anyway.

Your extended list consists of political issues, choices people have made. And the whole term "rap culture" is debatable in itself. But anyway, those are all stances people have. People in the LGBT community are different from that list, they don't fit anywhere, beginning, middle, nor end. It is their LIFE. It is not a political issue. Being respectful of a community, a culture, is not debatable. Equality and justice should not be considered debatable. The only people making it a political issue are those who aren't accepting that.

 

[sue4u2]

Like during the civil rights movement in the US during the 60's, when the racist white people were staging protests at the school doors to prevent black people from entering, that's discrimatory and illegal. But if the protest was across the street, even though what they're protesting is wrong, it iss legal and it's also important that they have the right to do so.

I have to agree. A rally to promote your cause is free speach.
It's when you try to invoke hate, intimidation and violence into, or try to inact legislation againist someone's elses belief, be it race, religion or no religion, Love or how to love, then it becomes discrimination.
I truly think the tide is turning and there is a great deal more of younger generation that is more tolerant and accepting than the one's that came before.
I pray it's so.. and there's a long way to go

 

[MadelynIris]

I think I made it pretty clear.

No you didn't.

 

[BVS]

No you didn't.

I mean look at that list you made. Comparing political issues with someone's life, someone's sexuality? Quite discusting.

What part are you not getting?

 

[MadelynIris]

Ormus already addressed this, but I was away so I'll respond with what I wanted to say anyway.

Your extended list consists of political issues, choices people have made. And the whole term "rap culture" is debatable in itself. But anyway, those are all stances people have. People in the LGBT community are different from that list, they don't fit anywhere, beginning, middle, nor end. It is their LIFE. It is not a political issue. Being respectful of a community, a culture, is not debatable. Equality and justice should not be considered debatable. The only people making it a political issue are those who aren't accepting that.

Right -- I had two groups. One describing fat kids, smart kids, bald kids, etc... and then a group of kids based on political choices. Bullying either group is a shame and wrong.

I stated that CURRENTLY, today in american society, I think that the LGBT kids fall in between those groups, because much of it is still politicized, ableit unfairly.

 

[MadelynIris]

I mean look at that list you made. Comparing political issues with someone's life, someone's sexuality? Quite discusting

Right, you don't choose to be short, but you do choose whether you are for or against abortion. Understood.

But my point was, they all deserve respect. Doesn't everyone?

I am extremely empathetic to the cause, so I still am not sure what I am not 'getting' and especially am not comprehending what is so disgusting about actually discussing the topic at hand.

 

[BVS]

Right, you don't choose to be short, but you do choose whether you are for or against abortion. Understood.

But my point was, they all deserve respect. Doesn't everyone?

I am extremely empathetic to the cause, so I still am not sure what I am not 'getting' and especially am not comprehending what is so disgusting about actually discussing the topic at hand.

Short was not on that list. You were talking about how it was still a political issue, but you're the only one making it one.

That's the part you weren't getting.

 

[MadelynIris]

ok, let me quote the whole post, and go through it...

Yes, it was intentional.

I understand the intent of the day of silence, and I respect it. I think it's a good thing.

But if you think it's only about respect... Kids are bullied for a lot of different things... are you ok with having days for all of those various things? Smart kids, fat kids, geeky kids, bald kids, short kids, goth kids, emo kids, jock kids, etc...

Perhaps we could expand the list to...

Pro-Gun kids
Pro-Abortion Kids
Anti-Gun Kids
Anti-Abortion Kids
Pre-Marital Sex Kids
Anti pre-marital sex kids
Pro-Rap Culture Kids
Anti-Pro Rap Culture Kids


Does it make any sense to protest days dedicated to respecting kids in the top group? Guess not. Bottom group? Hmm... Where do the LGBT kids fit? Unfortunately, somewhere in the middle.

Notice I did mention short kids in the first list. Political stuff in the second list. I also mentioned that "UNFORTUNATELY" I think LGBT kids are somewhere in the middle.

No, I am not 'MAKING' it political. It is political, especially since most of the republican party and about half the country still think it's political. I wish it weren't.

Read the posts next time.

 

[BVS]

ok, let me quote the whole post, and go through it...




Notice I did mention short kids in the first list. Political stuff in the second list. I also mentioned that "UNFORTUNATELY" I think LGBT kids are somewhere in the middle.

No, I am not 'MAKING' it political. It is political, especially since most of the republican party and about half the country still think it's political. I wish it weren't.

Read the posts next time.

They aren't in the middle. Their sexuality isn't half political and half something they are born with.

I read your posts.

 

[MadelynIris]

I am not saying LGBT kid's sexuality is political.

But the plight is. Funny how you "you aren't getting it".

Politics is the process by which groups make decisions. It is the authoritative allocation of values. Although the term is generally applied to behavior within governments, politics is observed in all human group interactions, including corporate, academic, and religious institutions.

In its most basic form, politics consists of "social relations involving authority or power".[1] In practice, the term refers to the regulation and government of a nation-state or other political unit,[2] and to the methods and tactics used to formulate and apply government policy.[3]

 

[BVS]

I am not saying LGBT kid's sexuality is political.

But the plight is. Funny how you "you aren't getting it".

I think LGBT kids are somewhere in the middle.

You said nothing about their plight, you said they are somewhere in the middle.