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Old 04-04-2008, 02:57 PM   #21
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Are we willing to call murder a crime, or aren't we? If we're not, then who honestly cares why she did it? Bad stuff happens. C'est la vie.
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Old 04-04-2008, 02:57 PM   #22
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Originally posted by nathan1977
See the litany of justification above involved in rationalizing why she did what she did -- a poor home life, neglectful parents, chemical imbalance, etc. There has been more sympathy expressed in this thread for the "poor girl" who flushed her baby down the toilet, than the dead baby itself. And interestingly, the sympathy for the dead baby seems to be remarkably back-handed -- "While this is obviously a shame..." etc.




i think you're putting motivation behind certain comments that aren't totally warranted.
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Old 04-04-2008, 02:58 PM   #23
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Originally posted by Irvine511
there are multiple tragedies here.

one of which is the death of a baby (for some reason, i had thought it was stillborn when i first heard about this), in a horrific manner.

the other tragedy is that this is a girl who was pregnant at 14, and no one noticed? she had no one to tell? did she fear she'd be beaten, abused, disowned, if she told someone?
No. One is a tragedy. One is a crime. Which is it?
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Old 04-04-2008, 02:59 PM   #24
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Are we willing to call murder a crime, or aren't we? If we're not, then who honestly cares why she did it? Bad stuff happens. C'est la vie.


what is it you're looking for here? death penalty?
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Old 04-04-2008, 02:59 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
Are we willing to call murder a crime, or aren't we?
If we're not, then who honestly cares why she did it? Bad stuff happens. C'est la vie.
Death is death, but you do realize our society has different categories of murder don't you?

Has one person said anything about this not being a crime?

Man you really read into things...
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Old 04-04-2008, 03:00 PM   #26
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No. One is a tragedy. One is a crime. Which is it?



this is needlessly bifurcating a complex situation. all crimes are tragedies, not all tragedies are crimes.
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Old 04-04-2008, 03:02 PM   #27
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No. One is a tragedy. One is a crime. Which is it?
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Old 04-04-2008, 03:02 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
See the litany of justification above involved in rationalizing why she did what she did -- a poor home life, neglectful parents, chemical imbalance, etc. There has been more sympathy expressed in this thread for the "poor girl" who flushed her baby down the toilet, than the dead baby itself. And interestingly, the sympathy for the dead baby seems to be remarkably back-handed -- "While this is obviously a shame..." etc.
No, it's called 'not engaging in black and white thinking.'

Okay, let's look at this from another perspective, and maybe that'll help you see what we're trying to say?

You state that the girl will be fine, with minimum punishment. If that's the case, which I'm not convinced it is, the article only says that she's not eligible for the death penalty (thank goodness for small mercies, given that it took place in killing-happy Texas), not that she won't be punished. But, say your scenario is correct, she gets a slap on the wrist, and is free when she's 18. Wouldn't it be in society's best interest to find out the root cause of this, and try to rehabilitate her to prevent her from performing another crime down the road? Or, like Pearl suggested, that we look at these cases in order to prevent it from happening with other young girls?

Or should we just wring our hands, mourn the death of the babies, proclaim the young mothers inhumane and unworthy of help, and let situations like this continue?
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Old 04-04-2008, 03:06 PM   #29
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Or should we just wring our hands, mourn the death of the babies, proclaim the young mothers inhumane and unworthy of help, and let situations like this continue?


maybe we should flush her down the toilet.
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Old 04-04-2008, 03:10 PM   #30
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maybe we should flush her down the toilet.
Does it say in the bible we should do that? Can you find a verse?
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Old 04-04-2008, 03:12 PM   #31
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Maybe we should flush the Bible down the toilet.



Quote:
"Those who lead children astray should be dropped off a cliff with a millstone around their neck." (Mark 9:42)
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Old 04-04-2008, 03:15 PM   #32
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Death is death, but you do realize our society has different categories of murder don't you?

Has one person said anything about this not being a crime?

Man you really read into things...
Hardly. Has anyone here even referred to this as a crime? When we refer to what happened as "death" as opposed to murder, when we equate whatever tragic upbringing this girl may (or may not) have had, it's pretty clear that this girl's problem is ours too.
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Old 04-04-2008, 03:17 PM   #33
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Maybe we should flush the Bible down the toilet.

[q]"Those who lead children astray should be dropped off a cliff with a millstone around their neck." (Mark 9:42)[/q]

Talk about missing the point.
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Old 04-04-2008, 03:17 PM   #34
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Hardly. Has anyone here referred to this as a crime? When we refer to what happened as "death" as opposed to murder, when we equate whatever tragic upbringing this girl may (or may not) have had, it's pretty clear that this girl's problem is ours too.


what are you looking for here? are you just trying to further your suspicion that pro-choice people don't care about babies, not even born ones?
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Old 04-04-2008, 03:36 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


Hardly. Has anyone here even referred to this as a crime?
Quote:
Originally posted by VintagePunk


Wouldn't it be in society's best interest to find out the root cause of this, and try to rehabilitate her to prevent her from performing another crime down the road?
So, again, do we simply lock up these girls and throw away the key, or will trying to look at causes perhaps prevent this in the future?
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Old 04-04-2008, 04:05 PM   #36
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I do feel badly for these 14 year old girls. Due to their actions of having sex at that age, they are looking for something in their lives but all in the wrong place. The end result is the baby...also at 14 you know by this age that killing something a baby, person, dog, cat etc. is wrong. In both cases the girls did have an alternative and I don't mean clinics or anything like that, all they had to do was leave the infants in the bathrooms.
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Old 04-04-2008, 04:13 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


Hardly.
What

Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977

Has anyone here even referred to this as a crime? When we refer to what happened as "death" as opposed to murder, when we equate whatever tragic upbringing this girl may (or may not) have had, it's pretty clear that this girl's problem is ours too.
So that's all you want, someone to refer to this as a crime? It's pretty implied, don't you think?
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Old 04-04-2008, 04:19 PM   #38
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Originally posted by Irvine511




what are you looking for here? are you just trying to further your suspicion that pro-choice people don't care about babies, not even born ones?
Wow. There's a straw man for you. I don't even think that, and would much less imply it, but whatever helps you keep your stereotype.

This is a cut and dried case of murder -- whatever the motivation -- but no one wants to refer to it as such. No one even wants to refer to it as a crime. The safer word is "tragedy," but tragedy implies something that couldn't be helped. The flushing of a living baby down a toilet certainly could. So what are we left to do? When murder is justifiable, we are pretty far down a slippery slope, don't you think?
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Old 04-04-2008, 04:20 PM   #39
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Originally posted by VintagePunk




So, again, do we simply lock up these girls and throw away the key, or will trying to look at causes perhaps prevent this in the future?
Are the two mutually exclusive? I'm not saying that an investigation shouldn't be done into the girl's home life. What I am saying is that a poor home life (if that is the case, which no one here knows) is no justification for murder.
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Old 04-04-2008, 04:24 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977

This is a cut and dried case of murder --
And like I asked before, you do realize society has different classifications of murder, don't you?

Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977

The safer word is "tragedy," but tragedy implies something that couldn't be helped. The flushing of a living baby down a toilet certainly could. So what are we left to do? When murder is justifiable, we are pretty far down a slippery slope, don't you think?
How does "tragedy" imply something that couldn't be helped? Man talk about a stretch.
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