As everybody knows, the folks in Iraq who are trying to hammer out a Constitution are having some.....,er, problems. Seems like little things such as the Kurds, women's "rights" and the issue of whether to have a semi-autonomous Shiite territory in the South (which could one day secede?) keep popping up. Not to mention that great-unwritten about issue: just what their relationship to their permanent military occupier, the United States, is. They've requested and gotten a week's delay in the deadline. This is a very important moment for both Iraq and the US, for many reasons.
I am very keen to see just how an American-style democracy can be successfully implimented under the barrel of a gun, and under a strict, swift timetable. (It always amazes me that both the soldiers standing guard in the Red Zone in Baghdad, and our so-called "leaders" in Washington, do not remember the basic fact that our own Revolution was NOT carried out in this manner.) And, of course, the knowledge that you never truly have the real power...you can't vote that big miltary base on the Euphrates to be dismantled and ALL US troops go home, for example. You can be sure that the day this benighted document hits the air, if there's a text of it online, you can darn well bet I'm going to download and copy the sucker. And there'd better be a text online! (anybody who can post a link to it as soon as it's up, could you please do so.) This is a thread where you can share your thoughts on this august document, its implications for the various groups in Iraq, difficulties or lack of them in implimenting its laws, US "sincerity", and thoughts on whether there can ever be "democracy" in the Middle East in general. Not to mention what I think our intentions in the region truly are (and IMO, they are NOT "democratic.")
The American Revolution was not about 1776, when we declared independence from Britain. No, we should be celebrating 1783, when the Founding Fathers first presented the feuding, warring factions of the 13 Colonies, (briefly united during only because the Brits were such utter bastards) with 2 documents that attempted to forge them into a nation. It was an intensely long, difficult and complex process, and some of the issues went unresolved, and were the seeds for our own Civil War some 80 yrs later. How many of you know that after the Revolution, most of the country didn't want to be a single country at all, but just wanted to go back to being like they were before? They just wanted to be free from England, having a single Federal Government was the last thing on thier minds. How on God's earth did the Fathers ever convince them to unite???Some of the issues that came up in 1783 we STILL fight about..how much pwer the Federal GOvt shoukd have and how much the States, for example. ) Nobody was really happy, in those first yrs. At times, it got extremely messy, and most of the Fathers by the late 1790's were bitter and doubted the whole thing would work. But it did. Why? I'm reading a lot about the Revolution right now and learning so much. And for those of you who believe that George W Bush really DOES want Iraq to be independent and free, with total control over her own destiny, even by these standards, Iraq is in trouble.
So this discussion can go various ways. We can debate whether the Iraqi Constition can work. Or what Bush's real designs are, by the dubious process by which they are being pressured to produce a document by a deadline of mere weeks (unlike the American Revolution, in which the Fathers not only of course worked with no deadline, but took the opposite tack: letting the people respond to the Consitution and hash it all out, and responing by making alterations where they felt they were needed to address people's concerns, and coming up with the Bill Of Rights for people concerned about the ruling class having too much power. IMO, the BOR is even more imprtant than the Constitution..freedom of religion, assembly, speech, free press, etc. But we also have to remember that the Fathers didn't dreamit up in the first place, it came after public comment. Remember, kiddies: the Constitution came first, and the Bill of Roghts second, and only after long months of public debate. That is very interesting. ) We can discuss whether this is even a "democratic" enterprise or a dubious excercise in colonialism, disguised as "democracy." We can discuss the history of the various groups. Or what country this is supposed to look like. Or how her enighbors are watching all this go down, and our allies too. And the nature of gov't.
And of course, this is the place to monitor the media's reaction, American and international, about this. .
Enough of my long-winded rant....let the fun and games begin....
(strikes up "Fanfare For The Common Man").
For starters: On the subject of democratic revolutions. Anybody got recommendations on reading material? For America: Let me begin with David McCullough's new book, "1776", the Peabody-winning PBS Documentary "Liberty!" and another one I'm readng right now..forgot the title....it has a yellow cover....it's about factions in the Colonies... the back with this in a minute.
P.S... Dangit, I can't find it. I'll have the title tomorrow, when I'm back here. Oh, and one other thing: we in the US (as usual) don't care about foriegn reaction to out affairs, or foreign involevement in our wars. If it wasn't for the French, there wouldn't be an America....I'd love to have the non-U.S. posters share foreign reaction too.
I am very keen to see just how an American-style democracy can be successfully implimented under the barrel of a gun, and under a strict, swift timetable. (It always amazes me that both the soldiers standing guard in the Red Zone in Baghdad, and our so-called "leaders" in Washington, do not remember the basic fact that our own Revolution was NOT carried out in this manner.) And, of course, the knowledge that you never truly have the real power...you can't vote that big miltary base on the Euphrates to be dismantled and ALL US troops go home, for example. You can be sure that the day this benighted document hits the air, if there's a text of it online, you can darn well bet I'm going to download and copy the sucker. And there'd better be a text online! (anybody who can post a link to it as soon as it's up, could you please do so.) This is a thread where you can share your thoughts on this august document, its implications for the various groups in Iraq, difficulties or lack of them in implimenting its laws, US "sincerity", and thoughts on whether there can ever be "democracy" in the Middle East in general. Not to mention what I think our intentions in the region truly are (and IMO, they are NOT "democratic.")
The American Revolution was not about 1776, when we declared independence from Britain. No, we should be celebrating 1783, when the Founding Fathers first presented the feuding, warring factions of the 13 Colonies, (briefly united during only because the Brits were such utter bastards) with 2 documents that attempted to forge them into a nation. It was an intensely long, difficult and complex process, and some of the issues went unresolved, and were the seeds for our own Civil War some 80 yrs later. How many of you know that after the Revolution, most of the country didn't want to be a single country at all, but just wanted to go back to being like they were before? They just wanted to be free from England, having a single Federal Government was the last thing on thier minds. How on God's earth did the Fathers ever convince them to unite???Some of the issues that came up in 1783 we STILL fight about..how much pwer the Federal GOvt shoukd have and how much the States, for example. ) Nobody was really happy, in those first yrs. At times, it got extremely messy, and most of the Fathers by the late 1790's were bitter and doubted the whole thing would work. But it did. Why? I'm reading a lot about the Revolution right now and learning so much. And for those of you who believe that George W Bush really DOES want Iraq to be independent and free, with total control over her own destiny, even by these standards, Iraq is in trouble.
So this discussion can go various ways. We can debate whether the Iraqi Constition can work. Or what Bush's real designs are, by the dubious process by which they are being pressured to produce a document by a deadline of mere weeks (unlike the American Revolution, in which the Fathers not only of course worked with no deadline, but took the opposite tack: letting the people respond to the Consitution and hash it all out, and responing by making alterations where they felt they were needed to address people's concerns, and coming up with the Bill Of Rights for people concerned about the ruling class having too much power. IMO, the BOR is even more imprtant than the Constitution..freedom of religion, assembly, speech, free press, etc. But we also have to remember that the Fathers didn't dreamit up in the first place, it came after public comment. Remember, kiddies: the Constitution came first, and the Bill of Roghts second, and only after long months of public debate. That is very interesting. ) We can discuss whether this is even a "democratic" enterprise or a dubious excercise in colonialism, disguised as "democracy." We can discuss the history of the various groups. Or what country this is supposed to look like. Or how her enighbors are watching all this go down, and our allies too. And the nature of gov't.
And of course, this is the place to monitor the media's reaction, American and international, about this. .
Enough of my long-winded rant....let the fun and games begin....
(strikes up "Fanfare For The Common Man").
For starters: On the subject of democratic revolutions. Anybody got recommendations on reading material? For America: Let me begin with David McCullough's new book, "1776", the Peabody-winning PBS Documentary "Liberty!" and another one I'm readng right now..forgot the title....it has a yellow cover....it's about factions in the Colonies... the back with this in a minute.
P.S... Dangit, I can't find it. I'll have the title tomorrow, when I'm back here. Oh, and one other thing: we in the US (as usual) don't care about foriegn reaction to out affairs, or foreign involevement in our wars. If it wasn't for the French, there wouldn't be an America....I'd love to have the non-U.S. posters share foreign reaction too.
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