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Old 01-03-2003, 08:46 PM   #1
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Clone controversy

I must be crazy--I never post here because I'm not normally overly fond of controversy. But I want to know what people think about the clone controversy. First of all, do you believe that the cloning is even going on? The group that claims it's doing the cloning won't produce the evidence. They won't show the "cloned" baby or anything. Then, do you think cloning is moral or not? Why or why not?
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Old 01-03-2003, 09:49 PM   #2
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Well for your first time arnt you asking for alot!
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Old 01-03-2003, 09:58 PM   #3
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Well for your first time arnt you asking for alot!

I guess. But I saw a giant thread on the controversy on a Coldplay discussion board, no one got killed and that's a hell of a flamey board. I got curious about opinions on Interference since it's safer here.
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Old 01-03-2003, 10:10 PM   #4
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Cloning any ol thing, or cloning of humans?
Anything that's done by a cult of ppl that think the aliens are going to save them scares me
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Old 01-03-2003, 10:10 PM   #5
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Well,

I for one am surprised that Yoda allowed himself to be the future emporer's pawn in the movie. Bringing the clone army in like that is just a serious lack of foresight on Yoda's part.

I also wonder why the Emporer just does not clone himself? Why does he need Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker down the road?

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 01-03-2003, 10:16 PM   #6
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Damn. I should have called this thread "human cloning controversy" because yes, I'm talking about human cloning. That religious group that is putting out the clone stories *is* really wacko and scary. If they do indeed have a cloned baby why in hell won't they show it to anyone? Personally, I have my doubts as to whether or not the cloning even took place. Then........ is it right? I'm inclined to think we play God too much as it is.
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Old 01-03-2003, 10:23 PM   #7
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I think we screw with nature too much, and in the case of cloning humans it has a great potential to backfire...
We don't need more ppl running around this planet.

But then again....mabey the gov't has secretly been cloning ppl for years and we just don't know about it.

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Old 01-04-2003, 02:59 AM   #8
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i think its fucked up and wrong on so many levels.....

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Old 01-04-2003, 08:32 AM   #9
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Originally posted by verte76
Damn. I should have called this thread "human cloning controversy" because yes, I'm talking about human cloning. That religious group that is putting out the clone stories *is* really wacko and scary. If they do indeed have a cloned baby why in hell won't they show it to anyone? Personally, I have my doubts as to whether or not the cloning even took place. Then........ is it right? I'm inclined to think we play God too much as it is.

It scares me a lot. Today i read in the newspaper that the second cloned baby will be born in a few days in holland.
The lesbien couple is very happy with the birht of thereselfs.
There are so much homeless and poor kids all over world, can't people adopt them?
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Old 01-04-2003, 12:31 PM   #10
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It's being reported on the news that the second cloned baby was born in the Netherlands to that lesbian couple. That's a good question, why can't they adopt? Do they absolutely have to have a damn *clone* of themselves??
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Old 01-04-2003, 01:42 PM   #11
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Wake Up, Cloning's Day Has Come

By Michael Shermer

January 2 2003

Ever since scientists in the 1970s first began cloning experiments on simple organisms, ethicists and lawmakers have been wringing their hands in Ludditean fear and existential angst over what to do when cloning technology approaches the human barrier.

On Friday, Brigitte Boisselier, the scientific director of Clonaid -- associated with the Raelians, a group that believes that life was seeded on Earth by aliens from other worlds -- announced that her team had done just that with a 31-year-old American woman who, they claim, gave birth to the world's first human clone, nicknamed, appropriately, Eve.

Whether the Raelians succeeded is irrelevant. It is clear that someone, somewhere, some time soon is going to generate a human clone. And once that happens, others will be quick to follow through the door and we will learn whether medical complications make cloning impractical as a form of fertility enhancement.

What I find disturbing is not cloning per se but three fundamental myths about it: the Identical Personhood Myth; the Playing God Myth; and the Human Rights and Dignity Myth.

The Identical Personhood Myth is perpetuated by those who say: "It's a horrendous crime to make a copy of someone." But what they should be saying is: "Clone all you like; you'll never produce another you because environment matters as much as heredity."

The best scientific evidence to date indicates that roughly half the variance between humans is accounted for by genetics; the balance is by environment. Because it is impossible to duplicate the near-infinite number of environmental permutations that go into producing an individual human being, cloning is no threat to unique personhood.

The Playing God Myth has numerous promoters, the latest being Stanley M. Hauerwas, a professor of theological ethics at Duke University who responded to the Clonaid announcement with this unequivocal denouncement: "The very attempt to clone a human being is evil. The assumption that we must do what we can do is fueled by the Promethean desire to be our own creators."

He is not alone in his belief. A 1997 Time/CNN poll, conducted on the heels of the news that a cloned sheep, Dolly, had been born, revealed that 74% of Americans said it was "against God's will" to clone human beings.

But cloning scientists don't want to play God any more than fertility doctors do. What's godly about in vitro fertilization, embryo transfer and other fully sanctioned birth enhancement technologies? Absolutely nothing. Yet we cheerfully accept these advances because we are accustomed to them.

The Human Rights and Dignity Myth is embodied in the Roman Catholic Church's official statement against cloning, based on the belief that it denies "the dignity of human procreation and of the conjugal union."

The same sentiment is also found in a Sunni Muslim cleric's demand that "science must be regulated by firm laws to preserve humanity and its dignity."

The reality is that clones will be no more alike than twins raised in separate environments, and no one is suggesting that twins do not have rights or dignity, or that twinning should be banned.

In the interest of assuaging these and other fears, I propose the Three Laws of Cloning.

* A human clone is a human being no less unique in his or her personhood than an identical twin.

* A human clone is a human being with all the rights and privileges that accompany this legal and moral status.

* A human clone is a human being to be accorded the dignity and respect due any member of our species.

Instead of restricting or banning cloning, I propose that we adopt the Three Laws of Cloning.

The soul of science is found in courageous thought and creative experiment, not in restrictive fear and prohibitions. For science to progress it must be given the opportunity to succeed or fail.

Let's run the cloning experiment and see what happens.
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Old 01-04-2003, 02:37 PM   #12
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Well, gosh, I guess human clones are here to stay, whether or not this particular group is actually producing clones as they claim. We might as well accept clones as fellow human beings, no matter what else we might think about cloning. A while back in vitro fertilization was controversial as hell. Now it's common practice--two of my own friends have in vitro babies.
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Old 01-04-2003, 03:15 PM   #13
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i think one couple used the dna of thier deceased kid to have another one- so i guess it'll look just like the kid..this fact tells ya- it's duranged, weird, and just plain f*ed up *sigh* that clonaid lady's scary looking...
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Old 01-04-2003, 03:50 PM   #14
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i think one couple used the dna of thier deceased kid to have another one- so i guess it'll look just like the kid..this fact tells ya- it's duranged, weird, and just plain f*ed up *sigh* that clonaid lady's scary looking...

Damn! That gives me the creeps!!
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Old 01-04-2003, 05:29 PM   #15
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I had to change my sig because of the clone controversy. I've enjoyed telling UFO jokes and stories, including stuff with an imaginary community of U2 fans, for years, but never really cared if UFO's actually existed. A headline about "UFO Cult" associated with the alleged birth in Holland made me feel like I should take "Peace, lemons, UFO's, and Elevation" out of my sig. It's a joke, but I don't know if everyone would understand that it's a joke. So I just took it out.
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Old 01-04-2003, 06:45 PM   #16
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i personally don't care, to each his own i suppose. however, i would never do it. i do think it's a little creepy that people would want a duplicate of someone else, because i can't really think of anyone who's perfect enough to be duplicated.

i certainly wouldn't wanna clone myself and have a daughter, eww!
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Old 01-04-2003, 06:45 PM   #17
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What's most disturbing about reproductive cloning is that this woman's baby is not only her daughter but also her identical twin! Also, from an evolutionary standpoint, if cloning becomes a common practice in the future, than it will reduce the amount of genetic variance in the gene pool. I find this to be most harmful to human existence.
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Old 01-05-2003, 12:21 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
Wake Up, Cloning's Day Has Come

By Michael Shermer

January 2 2003


In the interest of assuaging these and other fears, I propose the Three Laws of Cloning.

* A human clone is a human being no less unique in his or her personhood than an identical twin.

* A human clone is a human being with all the rights and privileges that accompany this legal and moral status.

* A human clone is a human being to be accorded the dignity and respect due any member of our species.

Instead of restricting or banning cloning, I propose that we adopt the Three Laws of Cloning.

The soul of science is found in courageous thought and creative experiment, not in restrictive fear and prohibitions. For science to progress it must be given the opportunity to succeed or fail.

Let's run the cloning experiment and see what happens.


Dolly Creator Denounces Sect's Clone Claims



LONDON (Reuters) - Human clones are likely to be unhealthy and such experiments should be banned, the head of the institute that created Dolly the sheep said on Saturday, hours after a cult said it had produced the second cloned baby.

Harry Griffin of the Roslin Institute in Scotland, which made history by cloning Dolly from an adult sheep in 1996, told Reuters the claims by Clonaid, a group linked to the UFO-obsessed Raelian religious sect, were probably bogus.

"Clonaid have made claims of two births, but of yet provided no evidence that either baby exists, no evidence from DNA tests, and as yet, therefore, there is no reason to believe this is anything other than a long, drawn out publicity stunt."

But if cloned babies have been produced, the experiments should be stopped, Griffin said.

"I think its entirely unacceptable for groups like Clonaid to be gambling with the health of children," he said.

Griffin said Clonaid's claim of a high success rate in its human cloning experiment flew in the face of years of research into cloning in other species.

"There is a lot about this story that doesn't ring true. Success rates in every other species that have been cloned have been low, with lots of problems for the fetus and newborn clone," he said.

"Attempts to clone monkeys have been entirely unsuccessful and the sort of successes claimed by Clonaid are totally at odds with all past history of cloning other species."

Dolly the sheep is still alive but suffers from severe arthritis. Griffin said scientists are unsure whether her health problems are a result of her being a clone, but countless other experiments have shown that clones are often unhealthy.

"There is a whole raft of serious physiological deformities reported in clones, and even in entirely healthy animals its not entirely clear they are normal," he said.

The process of cloning involves taking the genes of an adult -- the instructions for life that make every organism unique -- and transferring them into an embryo, turning it into a genetic twin of the original.

But Griffin said that although the clone has the same genes as the adult, there can be differences between the way genes behave, which often means the embryos of clones cannot grow to term, die shortly after birth or live crippled by disease.

"You've got to persuade the 40,000 genes in that cell to stop behaving as if they are in a mammary gland cell, or a skin cell or whatever, and start behaving as if they are in an embryo," he said.

"We don't know how this reprogramming takes place. One, several or more of the genes can be inappropriately expressed."

Often cloned embryos do not survive to produce a live birth. Sometimes clones die shortly after birth, and other times they develop serious health problems later in life, he said.

"All these things have been reported in the clones of cattle, sheep, pigs, goats, mice, rabbits. And there's no reason to believe that similar problems will not arise in the cloning of a child," he said.
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Old 01-05-2003, 11:04 AM   #19
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Dolly the sheep is still alive but suffers from severe arthritis. Griffin said scientists are unsure whether her health problems are a result of her being a clone, but countless other experiments have shown that clones are often unhealthy.
I was going to make this comment, but it seems that an expert made it before me. I don't have much medical experience, but AFAIK, arthritis is and 'old age' disease (I think it has to do with the stiffening of the veins, or something like that). So even though Dolly was born in 1996, it had the DNA-structure of a sheep that was even older, accellerating the aging process in Dolly. The researchers who cloned Dolly are therefore right (IMO) to denounce the cloning of humans.
It's sad what's happening with Dolly, but at least now we know what can go wrong. Hopefully this is a wise lesson, but it seems others are more interested in their own glory. Sigh...

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Old 01-05-2003, 10:32 PM   #20
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it's all a lie. there's no way they actually cloned a human.
it's propaganda for their cause.
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