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Old 10-25-2007, 08:16 AM   #141
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The gay tent would be much cleaner... do you think it would have a discoball?
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Old 10-25-2007, 08:47 AM   #142
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Originally posted by maycocksean
A few years ago we went through, I guess you could call it an issue, regarding what to do when we went on our annual school campout with the gay students we had at the time. Some of the straight boys had voiced some concerns about being "bothered" or "touched" by the gay students in their tents. I'm not sure their concerns were entirely unwarranted as these were 8th and 9th grade boys and all them, gay and straight alike, had the maturity levels typical of that age group (Meaning that the straight boys were more liable to blow out of proportion the likelihood of their being "molested" in their tent and the gay boys were more liable to give their tent mates a quick "grab" or whatever just to tease them).


maybe this is generational, but i can't imagine being out in 8th grade.
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Old 10-25-2007, 12:32 PM   #143
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Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
I think it's a give and take. You can't expect for tolreance to happen over night. Start it off by separating people with sexual orientation and then wait. It'll take a generation for full acceptance to happen. I don't have anything against homosexuals but it's still a bit of a new issue for me and it will never appear to me as natural as my children will most probably view it.

So I say do it slowly but surely. Accept others gradually but don't expect the close minded to open their minds over night.
Are you seriously arguing for segregation?? Seriously?? Take a look through history: can you find any instances where segregation worked well and promoted tolerance and acceptance? Where it didn't infringe (to put it mildly) on the rights of the minority? If you're honest you're going to realize that segregation is not exactly the best way to achieve understanding and tolerance. If anything it inhibits acceptance and allows bigotry to spread.

And how exactly are people going to be more accepting of something if they never have to interact with it?













Seriously??
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Old 10-25-2007, 01:33 PM   #144
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You´re right. Screw segregation. Let´s have co-ed bathrooms. Just one bathroom for both males and females.

I love how for the sake of an argument people here will magically become oblivious to logical human behavior like separating bathrooms to ensure the privacy of opposite sexual genders.
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Old 10-25-2007, 01:44 PM   #145
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Are you serious? Who suggested co-ed bathrooms?
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Old 10-25-2007, 01:47 PM   #146
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Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
You´re right. Screw segregation. Let´s have co-ed bathrooms. Just one bathroom for both males and females.

I love how for the sake of an argument people here will magically become oblivious to logical human behavior like separating bathrooms to ensure the privacy of opposite sexual genders.
But you're not saying opposite sexual genders. You're saying we should separate by sexual orientation. Which for the most part you have no way of knowing when a guy walks into the bathroom. Unless you're going to argue in favor of some sort of armband that gay men should be forced to wear so you can figure out which ones to be irrationally afraid of.
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Old 10-25-2007, 01:53 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
You´re right. Screw segregation. Let´s have co-ed bathrooms. Just one bathroom for both males and females.

I love how for the sake of an argument people here will magically become oblivious to logical human behavior like separating bathrooms to ensure the privacy of opposite sexual genders.
I take it you haven't travelled round Europe much then? You should try a Finnish sauna for instance but then again you'd have to change your mindset as there's no sexual atmosphere.
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Old 10-25-2007, 01:56 PM   #148
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Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
I love how for the sake of an argument people here will magically become oblivious to logical human behavior like separating bathrooms to ensure the privacy of opposite sexual genders.
I love how you continue to make it seem like you're absolutely correct on this.

You have two unshakable assumptions here which are making you "magically oblivious:"

1) Because more men are rapists, men in general tend to want more sex and have less control of themselves.

2) Men are justifiably weirded out by gays.

Both assumptions are ridiculous.
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Old 10-25-2007, 02:04 PM   #149
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There´s really no point in arguing with people who won´t concede the fact that some people want their privacy. I´d rather not shower in front of someone who is attracted to my gender. And so would many other people. It´s that simple. But in interference you´re a bigot for even suggesting that you want your privacy.
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Old 10-25-2007, 02:11 PM   #150
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All I'm saying is that they shouldn't be banned from something because of your insecurities. If you are really that paranoid that they can't control themselves, then YOU should be the one who finds somewhere else to bathe, or YOU should be the one to find a different scout group. It shouldn't be their fault that you're paranoid.
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Old 10-25-2007, 02:25 PM   #151
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Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
There´s really no point in arguing with people who won´t concede the fact that some people want their privacy. I´d rather not shower in front of someone who is attracted to my gender. And so would many other people. It´s that simple. But in interference you´re a bigot for even suggesting that you want your privacy.
Like Diemen says, maybe they should all wear armbands so you'd know. It's all about you, so why not?
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Old 10-25-2007, 02:25 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
] I´d rather not shower in front of someone who is attracted to my gender.
That's fine. But how do you know if someone is attracted to your gender? How do you know if the guy next to you is gay or straight? You don't. You may have already showered in front of gay men dozens of times already (assuming you've showered in a locker room, etc). So what you're arguing for (separation) doesn't make sense in this case, because there is no way of separating them unless you force them to identify their sexual orientation. And that's a clear violation of their rights.
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Old 10-25-2007, 02:41 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
All I'm saying is that they shouldn't be banned from something because of your insecurities. If you are really that paranoid that they can't control themselves, then YOU should be the one who finds somewhere else to bathe, or YOU should be the one to find a different scout group. It shouldn't be their fault that you're paranoid.

If I were to selfishly answer as you have I would say "I´m the normal one because I´m straight. If you want to change things up and add a new sexual orientation then YOU should move out. It´s not my fault that you´re gay."

That line of thinking gets you nowhere. Even if you do manage to convince ME there´s still a vast majority of people out there who do feel uncomfortable with their privacy.
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Old 10-25-2007, 02:49 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy



If I were to selfishly answer as you have I would say "I´m the normal one because I´m straight. If you want to change things up and add a new sexual orientation then YOU should move out. It´s not my fault that you´re gay."

That line of thinking gets you nowhere.
Error #1: homosexuality is not a new sexual orientation.


And as an aside, go back 50 or 60 years:

"I'm the normal one because I'm white. If you want to change things up and sit at the front, then get your own buses. It's not my fault you're black."

But you're right, that line of thinking gets you nowhere. And yet you keep pushing for separation because you shouldn't be uncomfortable. So how exactly would this separation work? How would you separate homosexuals* from heterosexuals?

*Without violating their rights
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Old 10-25-2007, 02:52 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
there´s still a vast majority of people out there who do feel uncomfortable with their privacy.
I would say that actually the majority of people are uncomfortable with their privacy no matter who is next to them, whether they are gay or straight, male or female.

Besides (and you continue to ignore this), how is your privacy in danger if you can't visually tell who is gay anyway? Maybe everyone you've ever showered next to was gay. Maybe they weren't. Unless you knew them personally (and even then maybe not), you don't know. (which brings me back to how exactly you'd enact this separation...)
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Old 10-25-2007, 03:00 PM   #156
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How about this? I´m currently reading "Capote", the biography (great book so far btw) and it tells of how the bigger, stronger boys would "use" (it was more along the lines of "molest") Capote in the night because he was the "lighter" one of the goup. Don´t tell me these things don´t happen in the army, in prisons, all over the place. So as you see, sometimes, you DO know who is gay and sometimes they are taken advantage of in these conditions. Even then, when we all know that there is a possibility of them becoming targets, you see no reason at all for separation?

How would I separate them? I don´t know. But I do think that keeping such close quarters between "opposite" sexual orientations might just be asking for trouble.
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Old 10-25-2007, 03:04 PM   #157
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Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
If I were to selfishly answer as you have I would say "I´m the normal one because I´m straight. If you want to change things up and add a new sexual orientation then YOU should move out. It´s not my fault that you´re gay."

That line of thinking gets you nowhere. Even if you do manage to convince ME there´s still a vast majority of people out there who do feel uncomfortable with their privacy.
How in the hell was my answer selfish?

Privacy is one thing. Segregation and discrimination is another. I don't understand how the fact that a homosexual is nearby in the bathroom is a violation of your privacy. It is segregation to ban them from the bathroom. It's a men's room, not a straight men's room.
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Old 10-25-2007, 03:06 PM   #158
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I do not see the actions of bigots, abusers and bullies as justification for separating and/or minimizing one group from the rest of society.
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Old 10-25-2007, 03:08 PM   #159
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Originally posted by Diemen
I do not see the actions of bigots as justification for separating and/or minimizing one group from society. Social justice does not stop for bigots.

So, what are we suppossed to do? Just wait for people to "control themselves", expect people to "tolerate" because "that´s the way it should be"? You´re being idealistic.
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Old 10-25-2007, 03:10 PM   #160
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Who's not controlling themselves? Why do you assume that every homosexual is going to be checking you out? Why do you think they will be making sexual moves towards you in the bathroom?

Why would people need to tolerate? Maybe they could just go about their business and not worry about it! They certainly have been for the longest time.
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