Christians turned agnostic/atheist

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edgeboy

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Well im a christian turned agnostic. Is anyone else here
with me? Let's chat about it.
 
Christian turned against the corporation of religion, neither agnostic nor atheist not really all that 'Christian' anymore.

I do believe that Christ existed and that he was at least an embodiment of God, I don't think he's the only one because I refuse to think that if the shit hit the fan tomorrow that 4.5 billion people, not to mention all the billions who passed away before would rot in the pits of hell because they weren't privy to the correct 'dogma'. It's such nonsense it's almost good enough to believe.

The greatest gift my parents ever gave to me was an open mind.
I was neither sold against or for the church in the strictest sense.
My mother is a fundamentalist evangelical (basically) and my father is totally void of religion. How that worked out, I still try to balance, point being, I'd like to think I approached the whole thing with neither a bias towards one or the other and thus, I am still without any real answers, much like a lot of other people. Thank God, (maybe some irony there?), I am free of the dogma.

If you see a contradiction and you believe in the power of God, the ultimate authority, you can either apologize for it, have some old man behind a podium do it for you, or you can try and find your own relationship with God. But that's not real good for business.

Also, there are other options on the table.
ET tweaking the primate DNA makes as much sense as a man in a whale and talking snakes. I actually lean that way these days, laugh if you want, I'm not out on streetcorners championing a change in policy that will effect YOU.
 
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U2DMfan said:
I refuse to think that if the shit hit the fan tomorrow that 4.5 billion people, not to mention all the billions who passed away before would rot in the pits of hell because they weren't privy to the correct 'dogma'.


if this were true than God would not be just

if God is not just, than the God concept is blown all to pieces



don't forget all the aborted babies and fetuses that are all rotting in hell, too.

 
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I have yet to hear a sensible rationalisation for the problem of evil, a problem that does not exist in a materialistic universe.
 
A_Wanderer said:
I have yet to hear a sensible rationalisation for the problem of evil, a problem that does not exist in a materialistic universe.

I used to have sleep paralysis about once a week, and anyone who's had it will tell you, it's enough to make you shit your pants.

But then I started reading about it, how it's just a natural process, I started easing out of it. And, hopefully I won't jinx myself, I haven't had an episode in about 3 years.

Anyhow, those not familiar, it's a feeling of abject fear and a prescence of evil. You cannot move your body but you are awake.

I think alot of those thoughts (as it happened) come from the subconscience. Since I came to a realization about it, after years of thinking how 'evil' it was, not only has it not happened but I think part of the reason was mental. Well, the thoughts as it occured, that is. The physical reason is usually due to stresses.

The thing itself, as most basically said, your mind wakes up before your body does. It's called 'Old hag' in some cultures, it has different names. Basically once the mysticism was knocked off, I stopped thinking there was a demon fucking with me (or whatever). It became a natural process to me. What once was evil, was bullshit. Maybe that's a small symbol of how it breeds, or not.

There are those who will say that a Ouija board can bring some bad mojo, but I won't jack with those. As for 'born evil'. It just doesn't make any sense. Who can say Hitler was born evil? That's a cop out, he could have been turned any which way.
Naturally evil? I don't know. What is the purpose, even for God?
 
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I’m a former Christian fundamentalist who is now Agnostic. I believed with blind faith and it’s taken me years to tell myself that I was simply brainwashed by the church. I still sometimes go through waves of confusion but you just have to block it out of your mind, and that’s taken a long time for me.

There are contradictions in the Bible and it’s been translated over and over. So many people have different beliefs on various verses of scripture, I found myself questioning is this really the inherent word of God? But that was just one of my many doubts.

The one thing that scared me in the church was how hypocritical and morally pretentious a lot of them really are - I was glad to get out of it.
 
you don't need to believe in god to acknowledge evil. I see it as a description of one path humanity can take. To say it does not exist is absurd. Evil does not necessarily denote 'the Devil', although it might be an expression of the devils inherent in our collective nature.
 
The dilemma is that any God is either unable or unwilling to eliminate evil or has in fact deliberately added evil to creation, that dilemma about the nature of God and how evil can exist does not present itself in a universe without God.
 
'evil' will exist in any universe irrespective of an involvement of God. It's only that religion takes it upon itself to explain everything in the universe with farcsicle stories. In the case of Christianity, we are naturally flawed. This is because of Adam and Eve and the original sin allegory where we have an embedded propensity for evil.
But yeh there is a hole in religion where they (specifically Christianity) are insinuating that evil is exclusive to a universe run by God. Without God there is no evil apparantly! Religion really is the root of all evil.
 
I think the issue is that the presence of evil either impies a God who is not omnipotent or not compassionate; both are the claims made by the sellers of this idea.
 
A_Wanderer said:
The dilemma is that any God is either unable or unwilling to eliminate evil or has in fact deliberately added evil to creation, that dilemma about the nature of God and how evil can exist does not present itself in a universe without God.

God allows evil due to free will. With respect to free will, though, he gave us a choice in conquering evil through faith in Christ. If death is the result of evil, especially spiritual death, than Christ is the lifeline. He didn't add evil to creation, we did.
 
Evil is not the only product of free action and free thought, and the centuries of opression, slavery, statism and ethnic cleansing perpretrated for the acceptance of Christ are a testament to this.

If we are truly made in the image of God then what a petty and flawed character it must be. If God could not create inherently good people who could be responsible and respectful to eachother than how can it be deemed omnipotent or good?
 
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A_Wanderer said:
Evil is not the only product of free action and free thought, and the centuries of opression, slavery, statism and ethnic cleansing perpretrated for the acceptance of Christ are a testament to this.

If we are truly made in the image of God then what a petty and flawed character it must be. If God could not create inherently good people who could be responsible and respectful to eachother than how can it be deemed omnipotent or good?

You bring up some good points, but nowhere in the Bible, certainly not from the mouth of Christ himself, do we hear commands or suggestions to use opression, slavery, statism and ethnic cleansing to spread the Gospel. It's quite the opposite, in fact. I'm sure you already know this. If such forms of opression are used, then it goes against the Bible. It's just another bad mix of poliltical ambition and religion, really.

To answer your second point, we're made in the image of God, but that doesn't mean we are his equal. There are numerous verses that say this too. This is why God had to come down here and die in our place -- he did live the perfect life. The standard you're actually calling for is Christ.
 
That standard is what a truly compassionate deity would create, it is not impossible to have free will and inherent goodness; a utopia (or distopia, depending on ones point of view) could be created by God but for whatever reason it would create beings that have the illusion of choice (since rejecting this blood sacrifice condemns the individual), why would such a deity demand gratification from coercion?

In the absence of evil and death there is no compulsion to submit to the idea of God, I would argue that the idea of God is neccessitated by those things and follows from them.
 
A_Wanderer said:
That standard is what a truly compassionate deity would create, it is not impossible to have free will and inherent goodness; a utopia (or distopia, depending on ones point of view) could be created by God but for whatever reason it would create beings that have the illusion of choice (since rejecting this blood sacrifice condemns the individual), why would such a deity demand gratification from coercion?

In the absence of evil and death there is no compulsion to submit to the idea of God, I would argue that the idea of God is neccessitated by those things and follows from them.

It is impossible to have free will and inherent goodness. How can you say it's not?

God doesn't demand gratification from coercion. There is no cercion. There is only our choice. If we don't want to spend eternity with him, than he won't let us. He's not going to force us to do what we don't want to do.

Many people believe the idea of God comes from a need for such a being. Although there is a need, God existed first. Also, I don't call out to God only when I need him. Much of my relationship with him is one of gratitude and worship. (I would argue this point on behalf of many fellow Christians and would hope it's the case for the majority of them.)
 
To be blunt, conservative/fundamentalist Christians have, frankly, made me associate "Christianity" with stupidity, fanaticism, and blind hatred. Whether you think that's fair or not, I've had my share of bad experiences with religious types. Frankly, it takes a lot of self-discipline for me to not associate "God" with stupidity, fanaticism, and blind hatred too.

I'm not tremendously sure whether I fall under "agnostic" or if I just have beliefs that defy my current understanding of classification; but even then, after years of dealing with the rigid, but nonsensical structure of the Catholic Church, I'm not sure if I ever want to join another formal congregation. Put enough "religious types" in one room, and it always seems that the nuttiest ones attract the most attention. Still, although I have always been one to stick to my beliefs rather than compromise them to make friends (perhaps a testament to my rather insane standards of integrity), there's still some days where I wish I could have the community as well.

I have long ago reconciled the issue of God versus science, and, thankfully, in spite of all the nonsensical things I saw in the Catholic Church, they, at least, did not give me a hang-up over faith and science. As I see it, a lot of the age-old debate over good vs. evil and free will can be solved through mere reason.

God's idea of "perfection" and man's idea of "perfection" are not the same. Man defines perfection in truly human terms: complete uniformity in thought and culture, a world without choices...in other words, totalitarianism. As such, we have anthropomorphized "God" to assume that He carries the same prejudices that we have.

I believe that God defines perfection as perfection in form. In studying the universe, we've discovered something that is mindbogglingly complex, but orderly.

Earth, itself, is perfect as it is. If it had been larger, it might have attracted a larger atmosphere that may never have been supportive of life. Likewise, if it had been smaller, it might never have attracted a sufficient atmosphere. Its placement in the solar system is as "perfect" as it gets. Although we have to deal with periodic freezing and warming cycles, it's better than the alternatives--Venus and Mars.

Even the most violent of natural disasters serve a "perfect" purpose to maintain life on Earth. Without plate tectonics, which generates volcanoes and earthquakes, we would be as lifeless as Mars, as it is through this process that our crust recycles itself. Otherwise, Earth would be entirely nutrient-poor and flat as a cue ball. Hurricanes serve a very necessary purpose in sucking out massive amounts of heat in the tropics and sending it into colder regions to be dissipated. Otherwise, I have to think that the tropics might attain temperatures that would be enough to fry everyone and everything that lives there. As such, hurricanes are certainly better than the alternative.

Mankind, itself, is "perfect" in form, despite all this nonsense about us being "fallen." Without death, there would be no room for new life. None of us would be here today had our ancestors not died. There would be no need for reproduction, not to mention that there would be no room for everyone even if we could still reproduce. Our tendency towards extreme violence and extreme goodness shows our capacity for higher intelligence and emotion; you cannot have one extreme--goodness--without the other--evil. To merely have a choice to do good things is not to have a choice at all, and we would, as such, be no different from animals, who are generally strictly instinctual. "Good and evil," as defined by mankind, is a consequence of our free will.

And that's where I think the "mystery of God" sets in. If there is an "objective" idea of "perfection," I would rather appeal to logic, reason, and science, all of which would fall under "God's creation" (as would everything, theoretically), than a supposed "holy book" that's so full of hatred and illogical nonsense as to boggle my mind. Why the hell would it ever have been wrong to make clothes with two different kinds of fibers anyway? :huh:

Having all these crazy people around this world run around thinking that they know exactly what God wants makes me think that we know much less about "God" than we think.

Melon
 
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What bothers me about reducing the world to a battle between good and evil is that it tends to make some people – unfortunate often with strong religious beliefs – to condense everything into absolutes: Good/evil becomes for us/against us, saved/damned, moral/amoral etc. and so on. It’s a mostly useless world view that leads to even further polarisation.
 
I'm not an agnostic or an atheist - I believe in God, but feel really uneasy within the scope of Christianity. It's not Christianity per se, it's political Christians who have completely poisoned my views towards organized religion. Most people my age whom I know ran away from the Church because of these types, which is comical when you think about it given that they're supposed to be spreading the good word. Instead, they're having people massively run in the opposite direction.

I don't believe politics and religion can nor should mix. So long as they continue to do so, I don't want to any part of a religious affiliation.
 
anitram said:
I'm not an agnostic or an atheist - I believe in God, but feel really uneasy within the scope of Christianity. It's not Christianity per se, it's political Christians who have completely poisoned my views towards organized religion. Most people my age whom I know ran away from the Church because of these types, which is comical when you think about it given that they're supposed to be spreading the good word. Instead, they're having people massively run in the opposite direction.

I don't believe politics and religion can nor should mix. So long as they continue to do so, I don't want to any part of a religious affiliation.

This is a great post. Actually, believe it or not, you're part of a revolution in thinking this. I know you said you're not exactly a Christian, but a lot of Christians are finally starting to revolt against the Right Wing Christianity. People are finally starting to wake up to its lies and how it's made the faith something completely different, in so many respects, to anything Christ stood for when he walked this Earth.

I highly recommend "God's Politics" by Jim Wallis. Bono is a big fan of it, too. It's very refreshing.
 
melon said:
To be blunt, conservative/fundamentalist Christians have, frankly, made me associate "Christianity" with stupidity, fanaticism, and blind hatred. Whether you think that's fair or not, I've had my share of bad experiences with religious types. Frankly, it takes a lot of self-discipline for me to not associate "God" with stupidity, fanaticism, and blind hatred too.

Melon

Unfortuatnely, this is the case for so many people. It really urinates me off too. Christianity, as Bono says, has a lot of bad second-hand car sales men. In the name of Christ, people smear Christ's message and example all over the place like a pile of poo. It's sickening. Yet, I'm just as human as they are. Just as flawed. There's been many times when I've misrepresented the faith and Christ. I'm glad to hear you're pushing yourself to understand God from a higher perspective than what so many people have today. Of course, you're intelligent, so it's no surprise. :wink:

I agree with a lot of your post. It's very well written. Your perspective on science and faith is moving, actually. Thanks for sharing that. You're right -- the world is complex, but orderly. I think in observing the world and how it works (science), we get a glimpse of God's character. It's truly remarkable.

You said you're seeking the community. I urge you to keep looking. It's important to all of us. It's how we're built. There are some bad apples out there, but there's great churches, too. My only advice is to settle for nothing less than a place where the Bible is taken seriously, where people haven't given up on understanding it and where a relationship with God is at the core of everything. If you mix that in with some good people, it'll change your life.
 
Actually, coemgen, I do think of myself as Christian. It's Christianity as a current-day organized religion that I take an issue with. A bit like Gandhi said, "I like your Christ. I don't like your Christians; they are nothing like your Christ."

That rings very true to me.

ETA: Thanks for the book recommendation! I have 4 weeks off to do nothing better than read. :) Somebody else suggested a book to me whose title I can't recall exactly at the moment but it was something along the lines of "How the religious right hijacked Jesus" and I've been meaning to look that up as well.
 
Neenie said:
I’m a former Christian fundamentalist who is now Agnostic. I believed with blind faith and it’s taken me years to tell myself that I was simply brainwashed by the church. I still sometimes go through waves of confusion but you just have to block it out of your mind, and that’s taken a long time for me.

There are contradictions in the Bible and it’s been translated over and over. So many people have different beliefs on various verses of scripture, I found myself questioning is this really the inherent word of God? But that was just one of my many doubts.

The one thing that scared me in the church was how hypocritical and morally pretentious a lot of them really are - I was glad to get out of it.

....that pretty much sums up my new feelings too.
 
The more i think about it the more it becomes obvious how unreal and rather ridiculous today's christianity becomes. Im not trying to break anyones faith but that's the way i feel about it.
 
Well I don't mean just today's christians but i mean just the whole idea of christianity. I mean first, Why can god only have one son and why is it necessary for him to die on a cross? As if god will only have his power
if jesus dies on a cross. That's just an ancient belief in
animal and human sacrifice.
 
Former Catholic turned weak atheist.

The more I thought about it and learned about religion, the more unlikely the whole situation became. The less you know, the more you believe. At this point, my logic won't allow me to believe in the Christian god, or any other god that's been claimed by a religion.
 
XHendrix24 said:
The less you know, the more you believe. At this point, my logic won't allow me to believe in the Christian god, or any other god that's been claimed by a religion.

I respect your position, but I find it funny that the man who wrote the lyric "The less you know, the more you believe," is a Christian. :wink:
 
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