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deep

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There seems to be a Protestant denomination that embraces Jeses' triue teachings of LOVE and compasion and exceptance.




Jury Says Lesbian Methodist Can Keep Ministry
Sun Mar 21, 2004 02:49 PM ET

SEATTLE (Reuters) - A Methodist clergy jury unanimously ruled that a lesbian minister can continue to be a minister and remain in a homosexual relationship, church officials said on Sunday after a trial that deeply divided the third-largest U.S. Christian group.
Rev. Karen Dammann, who has been a pastor for the past 10 years with the United Methodist Church, was deemed not guilty by a jury of clergy that the openly homosexual minister should not be banned from being a leader of the church.

"We, the trial court, do not find the evidence presented by the church counsel to be clear and convincing that Karen Dammann has engaged in any 'practices declared by the United Methodist Church to be incompatible with Christian teachings,"' the jury said in a statement after rendering its verdict on Saturday.

Dammann had sought a clergy appointment in 2001 that also acknowledged her sexual orientation, as she sought to return from a leave of absence. Her bishop, Elias Galvan, filed a complaint, which, after hearings in various church judicial councils, resulted in a church jury trial that began on Wednesday.

Several dozen supporters for Dammann were arrested by police on the first day as they blocked the doors of the church where the trial was being held in suburban Bothell north of Seattle.

Although the Methodist's Book of Discipline "states that homosexuals are people of sacred worth," the church had argued that it also "regards the practice of homosexuality as incompatible with Christian teachings."

But a senior clergy member, considered the church's foremost authority on church law, had testified that the Methodist Church had never explicitly banned homosexual clergy.

In 1987, a Methodist lesbian clergy member in New Hampshire lost her credentials for being openly gay.
 
There is a slight misunderstanding behind all this. Homosexuality is against God. And God hates sin...but he LOVES the sinner. God is so holy that he cannot stand sin. That is why hell exists; ONE sin is worthy of eternal damnation. That is why he sent his son, Jesus, to pay for all of our sins. That's how much he loved us.

I don't want to argue about this but some people say christians are hate groups. And you know what? In some places that could easily be. You can't expect people to be perfect and correct because you will more often than not be dissapointed, Set your sides on He who is perfect and without sin because genuine Christianity is all about loving each other...even your enemies who hurt you.

If I offended anyone with this post, I am more than willing to talk about it.

Cheers
 
BrownEyedBoy said:
There is a slight misunderstanding behind all this. Homosexuality is against God. And God hates sin...but he LOVES the sinner. God is so holy that he cannot stand sin. That is why hell exists; ONE sin is worthy of eternal damnation. That is why he sent his son, Jesus, to pay for all of our sins. That's how much he loved us.


You didn't offend, only confuse. Let's see now. God hates and loves and damns and loves again and :huh:


I tell you, some of you Christians. You want to have it both ways. First He loves us, then He damns us, then He loves us, but only if we do certain things.

Make up your minds.

Oh, and if you're offended by this post, I don't care.
 
BrownEyedBoy said:
There is a slight misunderstanding behind all this. Homosexuality is against God. And God hates sin...but he LOVES the sinner. God is so holy that he cannot stand sin. That is why hell exists; ONE sin is worthy of eternal damnation. That is why he sent his son, Jesus, to pay for all of our sins. That's how much he loved us.


So what' your point? Where is there a slight misunderstanding? I'm not going to argue if homosexuality is a sin or not because frankly I'm tired of this argument. God will judge us all. I'm tired of the Church denying certain people rights because "it's a sin". Everyone is a sinner, it doesn't matter the sin. I don't care if it's murder, divorce, lying, etc. everyone in the church is a sinner, why does the church see fit to "ban" certain sinners and turn a blind eye to others.

I'm glad the church did what they did. She should be allowed to continue. It surprises me. I used to be very involved with the Methodist Church when I was in high school and College. During college I was a paid church employee that acted as a youth minister to middle school and high school age groups. There was a huge controversy because a man who held a high position in the south Texas district came out of the closet. I had to sit in on some of the meetings, they forced him to quit. I was furious and quit my position that day, I told them my reasoning. Still to this day there are certain people at this church that will not speak to me when I go back and visit when I'm town visiting my parents. This was 8 years ago.
 
BrownEyedBoy said:
There is a slight misunderstanding behind all this. Homosexuality is against God. And God hates sin...but he LOVES the sinner.

As many times as I have refuted this statement, it still comes up. "Homosexuality," as we know it today, did not exist in the cultural mindframe until the past 100 years, and, even then, really only the past 30 years.

Before then, it was perceived as straight people consciously choosing to either humiliate people, rape people, or being possessed. Either way, these people essentially are portrayed as going back to being straight afterwards, which is not a true depiction of homosexuality as it really is.

Either way, "homosexuality" (a word and concept coined in 1874, way before the Bible was ever written) is mistakenly thrown into the Bible to translate concepts that we no longer have words for. Most depictions of "homosexuality" in the Bible are really references to pagan temple orgies and male temple prostitution, as sex was perceived as a way to be closer to the gods--and they were bisexual orgies that involved both men and women. In either way, the Bible is certainly against rape and idolatry; there are plenty of Bible stories involving condemned heterosexual acts as well, but do we suddenly put a blanket prohibition against heterosexual acts, because of them? NO.

"Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law." -- Romans 13:8-10

I've grown so very tired of legalistic Christianity...

Melon
 
martha said:
I tell you, some of you Christians. You want to have it both ways. First He loves us, then He damns us, then He loves us, but only if we do certain things.

And then Jesus condemns divorce too, very explicitly; yet, I certainly don't see the "moral outrage," nor do we ever talk about how idolatrous all these remarried heterosexuals are and how they are all going to rot in hell by this same logic.

But then there's that whole faith, not works argument for salvation...except, somehow, works always seem to end up in the argument. So what is it? You can't have it both ways...except when it comes to religion, which can construct all the most irrational arguments in the world and never get challenged from within.

Melon
 
A co worker once told me, all sin is the same so it doesn't matter if you are gay, or a rapist, or commit adutery, or lust in your heart for your brother's wife, got drunk on Sunday, or if you stole a pen from work. You are still going to hell:(
 
Speaking of divorce, will gay divorces be seen as moral outrage and sins or a good thing since some didn't want to see them married in the first place :confused: :huh:
 
Hey, I just remembered a ghost documentary I saw once about a guy who was condemned to everlasting torture because he was playing cards and drinking on Sat. night and refused threats by friends to stop at midnight. He was a miserable ghost who walked the halls of his Scottish manor house. So that's the answer, you have to stop at midnight!
 
Well, I have no intention of converting. I am a Christian, a Catholic, and I do my best to embrace Jesus' true teachings as I interpret them. Guess what- I support gay marriage. Wow, what a shocker huh? I don't hate gay people. Of course I judge people on an individual basis, that's how I determine how I feel about them.

There was deep division over that case, so obviously not all Methodists "embrace the true teachings of Jesus", just as in the case of the Episcopal bishop Rev. Robinson.

So one can "spin" this I guess to make it fit one's view of Christians and Christianity.
 
MrsSpringsteen said:

So one can "spin" this I guess to make it fit one's view of Christians and Christianity.

Thats a good point, and makes for an interesting debate. Its all about the "spin" and or the context of a scripture, a discussion or a belief. If I believe that gays in the clergy is ok, there are people who will argue with me, they can give scientific points of view, share thier own experiences or even quote scripture.
If I believe its not ok, there are people who will argue with me, give the scientific points, quote scripture and maybe give experiences theve had too.
So, where does this leave us? This argument will never be "solved" in my opinion. Jesus did in fact tell us to love our neighbor. Thats a huge statement which should never be undervalued, never! Now, is that all we should ever mention and close the discussion? Maybe, who am I to say? Im always very suspicious of those that offer absolute "answers" when it comes to theology. And most peoples opinions come across as fact in an argument. And thats not to say that thier arent absolutes, but I digress.
Finally, to my point. As a Christian, I dont think it does any good to debate these issues, i really dont. Say what you will about me but more often than not a disagreement like this will never be "solved" and can usually end up being angry or personal when it didnt start that way. So, I propose we set aside a difference as some of us have and move on to the meat of the issue. The teachings of Jesus of Nazareth are my truth as I stated in another thread. It might not me yours, thats ok. Ok, ive rambled enough without even giving an opinion on the thread topic specifically. Sorry, im not giving one.
 
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MrsSpringsteen said:
Well, I have no intention of converting. I am a Christian, a Catholic, and I do my best to embrace Jesus' true teachings as I interpret them. Guess what- I support gay marriage. Wow, what a shocker huh? I don't hate gay people. Of course I judge people on an individual basis, that's how I determine how I feel about them.

There was deep division over that case, so obviously not all Methodists "embrace the true teachings of Jesus", just as in the case of the Episcopal bishop Rev. Robinson.

So one can "spin" this I guess to make it fit one's view of Christians and Christianity.

Exactly. It's not fair to blame an entire religion, or even Christ, for what a few people have decided to believe in the 21st century. There are millions of other Christians who are not like that!
 
:up: I agree with MrsSpringsteen. It's all in how you interpret things. In the end, we're all God's creatures and he loves us no matter what. At least that's what I was taught. :shrug:
 
Gay clergy men would become role model's and I don't know about you but I wouldn't want my children wanting to imitate someone who is a homosexual. He/She may have good intentions but I wouldn't want my children thinking they "want" to be gay.
 
BrownEyedBoy said:
Gay clergy men would become role model's and I don't know about you but I wouldn't want my children wanting to imitate someone who is a homosexual. He/She may have good intentions but I wouldn't want my children thinking they "want" to be gay.

:rolleyes:

Gay people aren't gay because they "imitated" someone who's gay or because a gay role model made them "want" to be gay.

I was just about to write a whole post about the science of human sexuality, but chances are the only response I'd get is a "well it's wrong in God's eyes" type comment so I won't even bother.

IhatethesethreadsIhatethesethreadsIhatethesethreadsIhatethesethreads.
 
BrownEyedBoy said:
Gay clergy men would become role model's and I don't know about you but I wouldn't want my children wanting to imitate someone who is a homosexual. He/She may have good intentions but I wouldn't want my children thinking they "want" to be gay.

You're absolutely ridiculous.

You can't teach someone to be gay no more than you can teach a cat to be a dog or to teach a right-handed individual to start writing primarily with their left hand.

All I have to say is that I hope you never have gay children. They wouldn't deserve a small-minded bigot like yourself; they would deserve far better.

Melon
 
BrownEyedBoy said:
Gay clergy men would become role model's and I don't know about you but I wouldn't want my children wanting to imitate someone who is a homosexual. He/She may have good intentions but I wouldn't want my children thinking they "want" to be gay.

I've seen your bigotry hid behind "it was just a joke" type bravado, but seriously I really feel sorry for you.

Are you going to ban divorced clergy, handicapped clergy, clergy that didn't quite go to the right college, clergy of another race, ex-alcoholics clergy, clergy that smoke....because I've had clergy of all these types and more and not once did I try to imitate them. I listened to their teachings and discovered if it fit in my life and I researched the materials they taught from.

If you're scared your children are going to imitate rather than truly learn and find themselves than you have failed as a parent.

I dare you to take a toll of adults and see how many say their sexuality comes from imitating, that's f**king rediculous. Do you think you can be persuaded?
 
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BrownEyedBoy said:
Gay clergy men would become role model's and I don't know about you but I wouldn't want my children wanting to imitate someone who is a homosexual. He/She may have good intentions but I wouldn't want my children thinking they "want" to be gay.


If/when I had children, I wouldn't want them to imitating you.





**watches that fly over BrownEyedBoy's head
 
Poor Brown-Eyed Boy. He says something everyone disagrees with and out goes civility and rational thinking. Goodness, everyone, if y'all are so open minded shouldn't you debate what is going on without trashing the poor guy? I have found that so called "tolerant" people are usually only tolerant of their own thinking.
 
Ft. Worth Frog said:
Poor Brown-Eyed Boy. He says something everyone disagrees with and out goes civility and rational thinking. Goodness, everyone, if y'all are so open minded shouldn't you debate what is going on without trashing the poor guy? I have found that so called "tolerant" people are usually only tolerant of their own thinking.

Too bad "poor BrownEyedBoy" brings up points that he cannot back up with any sort of evidence. Goodness, if he started making racist or anti-Semitic comments, he'd be universally condemned. But, because homophobia still gets "religious protections"--e.g., irrational mythic speech that, by design, cannot be debated--people feel sorry when the holes in the mythic logic gangs up on them.

What he says is the equivalent of what racists have said about black people. "I don't want my child to be influenced by some stupid, dirty, poor......" Sure, you're allowed to have your opinion, but it doesn't mean that the rest of us don't have a right to call him on it.

Melon
 
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Ft. Worth Frog said:
Poor Brown-Eyed Boy. He says something everyone disagrees with and out goes civility and rational thinking. Goodness, everyone, if y'all are so open minded shouldn't you debate what is going on without trashing the poor guy? I have found that so called "tolerant" people are usually only tolerant of their own thinking.

How rational the idea that people can be "influenced" into being gay? Not at all: this idea has no basis in reality and is nothing more than homophobic scare-mongering. What's civil about implying being gay is undesirable? Nothing: the idea insulting and offensive.

I also agree with melon's comments. If BrownEyedBoy had said "I wouldn't want my children to be taught by a Black person" then he would be immediately denounced as a racist. Why should there be such a double-standard when people make homophobic comments?
 
On the topic of clergy - in many denominations, if a member of the clergy has committed adultry, they are removed from their post. These individuals never claim to wake up one day and decide to commit adultry.

To melon's point, however, there is gross inconsistency in how "sins" are viewed in the church. Divorce, for one, is practically never questioned.
 
Ft. Worth Frog said:
Poor Brown-Eyed Boy. He says something everyone disagrees with and out goes civility and rational thinking. Goodness, everyone, if y'all are so open minded shouldn't you debate what is going on without trashing the poor guy? I have found that so called "tolerant" people are usually only tolerant of their own thinking.

Well against my better judgement I'm going to respond to this.

If you have read this whole thread and the thread on gay marriage you'll see that if someone comes in with a view that goes against the majority in here and they can back it up with some type of logic then there is a debate. But this was not the case, and not only was it not the case in this paticular instance but in several instances. Blanket statements, bigotry, or hate will not be tolerated in here.

But thanks for the blanket judgement cast upon us.
 
BrownEyedBoy said:
Gay clergy men would become role model's and I don't know about you but I wouldn't want my children wanting to imitate someone who is a homosexual. He/She may have good intentions but I wouldn't want my children thinking they "want" to be gay.

I don't know why I am dignifying this with a response at all, especially since others have addressed it so well. You should really educate yourself on this subject before participating in these kinds of discussions.

But I will respond because I'm bored. The only two teachers I had in high school that I had any respect for whatesoever were both lesbians. They were incredible role models for everyone. They were smarter, better educated, hipper and more tuned in to the needs of high school students than any of the other old dinosaurs teaching in that small school in rural Virginia. Interestingly, I did not 'imitate' their sexual orientation and as far as I know, no one else did either. Out of the 150 people in my graduating class, only 1 guy is gay and I'm pretty sure the lesbians had nothing to do with it.
 
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