Chief Wahoo

[melon]

Originally posted by U2Bama:
I realize he was using this as an "example" of how offensive "mascots" can be, but I wouldn't be surprised if this were another hint of the poster's regional biggotry shining through (remember, ALL conservative militia types who live in Michigan are actually from the South, as we have been told).

It is just an example, thank you very much, and accents my point further. The source is often more important than the message. If American Indians had named these teams on their own, they would not have had as much of a problem I guess.

Imagine now if the U.K. created a football team called the "Americans" and paraded around in a whole slew of stereotypes? You'd be surprised at the stereotypes you do get of Americans abroad. The BBC once referred to a sidewalk expansion around a monument and talked about how there would be more room for the "fat Americans" to "wobble" around.

MSU2Mike and melon: Has anyone ever staged a protest over the "Spartan" mascot at MSU?

No. Protests have been staged over the Indian baseball teams. If the Greek community was that offended by the Spartan mascot, which I have no indication to believe that to be true, I would have no problem with it being changed to something else. The team is one thing. The name is variable.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[erper]

in certain circumstances apathy is bad i agree, but i was merely trying to say they're apathetic in the sense that they dont regard others as inferior because of ethnicity... however i do agree that people dont take responsibility anymore and thats a very bad thing... such as sueing fast food places when they spilled their coffee on themselves so they sue someone else for their own mistake.... i mean come on lol...

but yeah apathy in extreme can be bad when they dont feel responsible for their own actions anymore

[This message has been edited by erper (edited 02-10-2002).]

[This message has been edited by erper (edited 02-10-2002).]

[U2Bama]

Originally posted by melon:
Those products were made mostly in the first half of the 20th century in the South. Yes, I hate to point fingers at one particular segment of the nation, but this time it is a historical fact. Racism and segregation were very ingrained in the culture then. I must emphasize "then," because I don't think that the majority is racist any longer.

I am not sure what all you are including in "these products," but Aunt Jemima Self-Rising Mixes were created in St. Louis, Missouri. As their model, they used Nancy Green, a home servant for a judge in Chicago, Illinois. The only "south" connection was that she had been born into slavery in Kentucky (a border state) before the "Civil" War.

Are there scores of other such products coming out of the South?

I know of "Famous Amos Cookies," invented by African-American Wally Amos in Hollywood, California in 1975; he was born in Tallahassee, Florida, though, but since HE was African-American and marketed his own image, is that offensive?

Here in Alabama (and Georgia) we have the legendary Dreamland Barbecue chain, known for some of the most famous ribs around. Their logo features an image of an African-American man smoking a pipe, and the line of his famous quote, "Ain't Nothin' Like 'Em, Nowhere!" The problem here is that the image is that of the restaurant's founder, John "Big Daddy" Bishop, Sr., and the image and slogan were designed by his family who still owns the chain, so a "racial stereotype charge would be unfait here.

But I would love to hear of some other examples of these racist Southern products.

~U2Alabama



[This message has been edited by U2Bama (edited 02-10-2002).]

[melon]

Originally posted by U2Bama:
But I would love to hear of some other examples of these racist Southern products.

I really wish I had the name of that documentary. I saw it a year ago. Outlined various products that existed mostly around 1910-1950, with the peak being c. 1930.

But I see you are going on the defensive again. To the South's credit, none of these products profiled exist anymore, minus Aunt Jemima (hence, why I remembered it), which changed it's image to be non-objectional.

You are a history buff, and you know the metamorphosis of the South from a racist, pro-segregationalist society. You have such colorful figures as Sen. Strom Thurmond, who holds the record for the longest filibuster, which was over 24 hours on a major civil rights bill, and former Gov. George Wallace. However, even I am not blind...both later changed their tone to be for civil rights and integration is the norm. These racist products don't exist any longer either, but the fact remains that they existed at one time. Don't tell me now that you are falling for revisionism yourself.

I can imagine the history of the U.S. today as told 75 years later. Next thing they'll be telling us that Americans weren't homophobic at one time.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[U2Bama]

Originally posted by melon:
But I see you are going on the defensive again. To the South's credit, none of these products profiled exist anymore, minus Aunt Jemima (hence, why I remembered it), which changed it's image to be non-objectional.

Defensive? No; just pointing out truths, such as this one (AGAIN): Aunt Jemima products were conceived in St. Louis, Missouri, NOT the South, and the image was based on a woman in Chicago, Illinois who was a house servant for a judge. She was not based on "the South" nor was it a "Southern product."

You are a history buff, and you know the metamorphosis of the South from a racist, pro-segregationalist society. You have such colorful figures as Sen. Strom Thurmond, who holds the record for the longest filibuster, which was over 24 hours on a major civil rights bill, and former Gov. George Wallace. However, even I am not blind...both later changed their tone to be for civil rights and integration is the norm. These racist products don't exist any longer either, but the fact remains that they existed at one time. Don't tell me now that you are falling for revisionism yourself.

Far from it. I do not deny that racism existed/exists in the South. But I am the type of person who likes to point out that it existed/exists in many more places than
in the 11 states that collectively committed treason in 1861. All of those things existed here, and in Boston, and Chicago, and Los Angeles, and Philadelphia. And it didn't happen in those areas because of a bunch of displaced Southerners who moved up there; racism is unfortunately present in some form or another just about everywhere you go.


~U2Alabama

[melon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Missouri in the South? Or are we going by old Confederate boundaries?

As for the image of Aunt Jemima, it is only interesting that, over time, her image changed about three or four times. The first image being a gross stereotype with bad teeth and big lips and the last being the pleasant looking woman we see today. *That* is why it was labelled a "racist product."

I've never understood regional loyalties...maybe Northerners aren't very patriotic in that sense. Please, by all means, if you find some dirt on the North or Michigan or whatever, bring it up. I would be interested in reading it.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[U2Bama]

I have never heard Missouri considered a "Southern" state, by boundary or by region; to be precise, I guess it is "lower Midwest." They did have a few Confederate regiments, as did Indiana, Ohio, Illinois, Kentucky and Maryland; but then, Alabama and Tennessee also had Union regiments.

Regarding "regional loyalties," I don't see how it is any different to take offense at regional slurs and stereotypes than it is to take offense at racial/ethnic, national, or religious stereotypes. And for that reason, I choose to refrain from "digging up dirt" on the North or Michigan in order to justify stereotypes of the inhabitants up there.

~U2Alabama

[speedracer]

Allow me to deposit my 1/20th of one cents' worth.

I am Asian-American.

Asians are often depicted in movies, TV and video games as persons who make noises of wild inflection while fighting unarmed. I have no problem with this.

However, if some white, black, or otherwise non-Asian kid addresses me in a mock Japanese/Chinese/Korean accent, I generally get a bit ticked off. Ironically, though, my reaction to such slurs ends up reinforcing Asian stereotypes when I scream "Sho-Ryu-Ken!" and administer my Super Dragon Punch to the kid's chin.

I am joking about the previous sentence.

[This message has been edited by speedracer (edited 02-10-2002).]

[U2Bama]

And just so that everyone knows: we do not have "mule relays" here in Alabama.

~U2Alabama

[melon]

Originally posted by U2Bama:
Regarding "regional loyalties," I don't see how it is any different to take offense at regional slurs and stereotypes than it is to take offense at racial/ethnic, national, or religious stereotypes. And for that reason, I choose to refrain from "digging up dirt" on the North or Michigan in order to justify stereotypes of the inhabitants up there.

Well, then I apologize. I didn't mean it to be taken that way. I generally find much of the cultural history of the entire United States to be repugnant anyway. A grand story of religious fanaticism, slavery, bigotry and ethnocentrism, tinted with nationalism. Of course, really, I can say the same about the world in many respects. While many would gleefully go back in time to the "good old days," I think that the best time in all history is the present, for better or for worse.

BTW, I would be curious to know what you think of my "Cluster Bomb" thread...

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[speedracer]

Originally posted by U2Bama:

And for that reason, I choose to refrain from "digging up dirt" on the North or Michigan in order to justify stereotypes of the inhabitants up there.

huh huh...hey Beavis, I hear cool stuff happens when you tip a cow...

[U2Bama]

Yes, all Texans, including Beavis & Butt-Head, get their kicks at night going out cow tipping.

[melon]

Originally posted by erper:
political correctness i think is way to extreme. we force others to watch what they say or how they say what they say, when they dont really mean anything offensive because they're innocent or ignorant enough to not know that it can be offensive or perhaps they know but they make money off it anyway lol.... but the point is
people vote with their wallet, and if you dont like it, dont watch their baseball team or dont root for them... let others decide on their own free will without forcing the management of the team to change because we dont like what they named their team.

erper, I would agree in some respects. However, this is a matter of mutual respect. The "buck-toothed hillbilly" remark has proven a point; when the stereotype is thrown at you and your ethnicity, you might not find it so funny. You may argue that American Indian groups are blowing this stuff out of proportion, but it is their right, since it is their ethnicity being caricatured and branded.

You may think that simple supply-and-demand can fix this, but the majority opinion is not always the correct one. If it were up to simple supply-and-demand, we'd still be populated with products that insult African Americans. "Aunt Jemima" syrup is one of the last living reminders. The original "Aunt Jemina" image was a plump, ugly slave woman stereotype. White people sure enjoyed products like that, but black people were still being silently insulted all through the late 19th century and the first half of the 20th century with products like that. It's not about political correctness, but about making a stand that everyone should be mutually respected. If American Indians are insulted by these baseball teams, then we should find other names. If Southerners are insulted by "buck-toothed hillbilly," then we shouldn't use it either. This is a matter of common sense.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[Angela Harlem]

The little mascot is just a caricature. A caricature as far as I knew, was just a visual exageration of something's appearance.

If however there are Native Americans who are offended, then it makes little difference. It shouldn't stay.

Is it though an insult to address or identify someone by their ethnicity? An Asian person after all is Asian. Is it wrong to call them that when it is most often handy as its the most obvious descriptor of a person's physical appearance?

My sister and I used to cop a lot of racial crap off people. If I ever bothered replying I say something along the lines of "You are such a little boy" to which they'd reply "Duh, what a stupid comeback!" I always thought, honey, it isnt a comeback, Im just stating the obvious like you were with your comments about skin colour.

[Klodomir]

On the racist food issue, I was wondering if you in America also have dodgy Chicken Tonight commercials, or if we only get them in Europe? I'm thinking about a very stereotypical Southern black woman that's used in TV ads here.

[Klodomir]

I find it really hard to decide on this issue. On one hand, I really understand why the logos and the name Redskins could be offensive to some people, but on the other hand I do not agree that any reference to a particular minority group should be avoided. The names Indians and Braves seem positive enough to me.

What I guess I'm trying to say is that you have to be sensitive to peoples feelings, but you can also go too far. For instance, there has been a call in the Netherlands for the removal of the word "negro" from the dictionaries because some people find it offensive. That's going too far, IMO.

[dream wanderer]

I am a card carrying reservation born tribal member and find this whole thing rather amusing.

First...the idea of the 'fighting Irish' and other similar terms are self identification. It is what you call yourselves among yourselves. It is not a tag someone else put on them. If blacks want to call themselves the 'n' word among themselves...that is their business... not ours. We do not call them that. Deal with it. For once they are calling the shots about something...

In Asheville NC a woman's basketball team called themselves the "Squaws". The nearby Cherokee tribe knew of it but had the attitude "They know what the word means...if they still want to use it...knowing full well what it means and that it can be offensive... that is their business. We have more important issues on the table...like diabetes and unemployment"

A group that had nothing to do with the reservation...a bunch of wannabes (people who claim to be Indians but cannot prove it or just declare themselves as such) were the ones who kicked up the stink...threatned lawsuits etc etc...and kept dragging the unwilling tribe back into the mess. The team finally changed its name.

Btw...the reservation teams are the "Braves" and the "Lady Braves"....

The words are offensive...but there are more important things to worry about in Indian country. Like suicide rates...maybe from people not getting enough respect...who knows?


dream wanderer

[ocu2fan]

Originally posted by speedracer:

Ironically, though, my reaction to such slurs ends up reinforcing Asian stereotypes when I scream "Sho-Ryu-Ken!" and administer my Super Dragon Punch to the kid's chin.

Quite possibly the funniest thing I have read this month! That was hilarious!