Chastity or lack thereof

[pax]

So I went on this service trip last week, and as you can imagine, a college service trip is going to attract a lot of Campus Ministry-type persons who are pretty religious. I have, in theory, no problem with that. I have some strongly held beliefs myself, though perhaps not many; I still consider myself to be flexible on a lot of issues.

Anyway, a bunch of the girls and I were up late talking one night, and somehow the discussion got around to chastity/abstinence. Now, I'm all for abstinence; don't get me wrong. It's the only 100% foolproof way to prevent pregnancy and STDs, and for many people it's a religious tenet. I've even been abstaining myself lately because I haven't been able to nail down a steady relationship and I was sick of sex without real intimacy.

The problem I had was this: the idea that virginity is somehow "preferable" to the lack of it. I mean, I guess it is, in some ways. But I couldn't contribute to this conversation at all, and I felt rather, well...cheap, despite the fact that my days of one-night stands were pretty limited and that they're long over. I think I don't like, as someone whose virginity is very much a thing of the past, being made to feel "dirty" or "impure" or "not-special" (if that makes any sense). It's wonderful that these women have made promises to themselves, and that they're proud to have upheld them. But should that pride come at the expense of women who haven't made the same decision?

I don't know about any of this. What do you all think about the state of being a never-married non-virgin in these virgin-obsessed times?

 

[deep]

I think I don't like, as someone whose virginity is very much a thing of the past, being made to feel "dirty" or "impure" or "not-special" (if that makes any sense).

No one can make you feel this way, but yourself.

Guilt, shame, embarrassment all require your cooperation.
It is what?s in your heart that matters.

 

[Sparkysgrrrl]

Well that goes for anytime anyone has a belief different than your own. You can be made to feel "dirty" on any topic. If there's something being discussed like it is the "right" way to do things, it leaves little room for acceptance or disscusion which can make ppl feel very left out.

Just ignore them, they can be high and mighty as they want but it does not make them a better person, and it doesn't make you a lesser person.

They're just mean

 

[RavenStar]

abstinence is not just abstaining from sex.

 

[MSU2mike]

It doesn't exactly sound like anyone was attacking you or anything you have or haven't done with regard to sex. The conversation came up, you were there, and due to hearing their views you felt a bit cheap or dirty. Perhaps they were catty in how they presented their opinions and that's what made you feel bad?

deep is right in saying that the only person that can make you feel dirty is you.

It should also be noted that even if you aren't particularly proud of some decisions you made in the past, that doesn't make you a bad person today (or then, for that matter). We've all done things we later wish we hadn't.

As for being a never-married non-virgin, that describes a pretty large percentage of 20-somethings.

Indeed it is what's in your heart that matters.

 

[daisybean]

Personally, I think it's great that a lot of young people are opting to wait until marriage. When I was in school, it was just the opposite, there was something wrong, or uncool if you wanted to wait.

However, you shouldn't feel "dirty" because of a choice you made. It's just that the pendulum of peer press is swinging the opposite way. I'm sure you would have felt the same way ten years ago if you were in the only virign in the room.

I understand how you feel, in the past I made some unwise choices some of which I regret...however, there is nothing I can do about it now....I can only just live my life the best I can for today. Which is what you seem to be doing now, if anything, you can help support these girls, and be open about you're past. You can in a sense say "been there, done that," hopefully they will learn from it.

 

[Bonochick]

I always used to be such a big believer in waiting until marriage...I thought that so many people did. I'm seeing how naive and unrealistic I've been though, and I really don't see the point in waiting. Hell, I'm engaged...that's pretty damn close.

 

[Klaus]

some ways. But I couldn't contribute to this conversation at all, and I felt rather, well...cheap, despite the fact that my days

Sad but true.. if there is a minority (no matter if it's like in your case a non virgin, in other situations maybe the virgin, the (non) alcohol drinker...) some people love to discriminate them and show that the way they do it is superiour..

Klaus

 

[martha]

The high and mighty also fall, and when they do, it's a long way down. My wonderful mother had a saying when I was a girl: "Virtue is 99% lack of opportunity." In other words, put some serious temptation in front of those girls and see what happens. It's easy to be pure when you're not in love, when you're not in the throes of young passion. It's also easier to get pregnant if you deny that you'll ever have sex until marriage. I know many girls who swore they'd never do it before they were married. Many of them have children your age because they weren't prepared. I don't regret any of my sexual past; it's made me who I am today, and I like who I am. Be happy with who you are. Who gives a damn about self-righteous, uptight people anyway?

 

[oliveu2cm]

No one can make you feel this way, but yourself.

Guilt, shame, embarrassment all require your cooperation.
It is what?s in your heart that matters.

let's not stereotype. i know people who have had sex talk about those who haven't as being unattractive, 'goody-two-shoes', etc. i know people who haven't had sex make those who have seem dirty, used, etc.

it's obviously the specific people's issues, not a specific group's issue. are all virgin's self-righteous snobs? are all nonvirgins loose w/ no self respect? God, no. And no one can make you feel bad without your permission. do what's right for yourself and be confident about your decision (make sure you'll be confident about it before it happens, or doesn't happen). If you are, then it won't matter what anyone else has to say.

 

[garibaldo]

let's not stereotype. i know people who have had sex talk about those who haven't as being unattractive, 'goody-two-shoes', etc. i know people who haven't had sex make those who have seem dirty, used, etc.

it's obviously the specific people's issues, not a specific group's issue. are all virgin's self-righteous snobs? are all nonvirgins loose w/ no self respect? God, no. And no one can make you feel bad without your permission. do what's right for yourself and be confident about your decision (make sure you'll be confident about it before it happens, or doesn't happen). If you are, then it won't matter what anyone else has to say.

Why are you telling him\her not to stereotype and then repeating nearly the same thing verbatim?

"And no one can make you feel bad without your permission."

That's pretty much all he\she said anyways. Let's not accuse people of stereotyping.

 

[garibaldo]

I certainly hope that the point of this thread wasn't just to elicite sympathy from non-virgins. These girls do have something to proud of and I think it's wrong of any of you to put them down because of it

Sparkysgrrrl, it's mean of you to assume that they're "high and mighty" without knowing them.

Martha, does it make you feel better grouping virgins as uptight and self-righteous? Your reply sounds like something the immature, catty girls at my old high school might have said about another girl they didn't like. Also, your characterization of wannabe virgins as more likely to become pregnant is ridiculous. Your anecdotal evidence only serves your arguement. It seems like your whole arguement is something a person who's guilt about sex would tell themselves to justify their actions. If you're really fine about it, you don't need to make up phrases like "Virtue is 99% lack of opportunity" and generalizations about virgins to justify it.

 

[oliveu2cm]

Why are you telling him\her not to stereotype and then repeating nearly the same thing verbatim?

"And no one can make you feel bad without your permission."

That's pretty much all he\she said anyways. Let's not accuse people of stereotyping.

I'm not stereotyping. I'm saying how the stereotypes are NOT TRUE. read my post again, b/c I did not repeat the same thing verbatim against anyone.

I'm not even accusing her of stereotyping, just saying to be careful not to apply one experience to a whole group of people. Obviously the people she spoke with have the issue, not everyone else.

 

[Dreadsox]

The high and mighty also fall, and when they do, it's a long way down. My wonderful mother had a saying when I was a girl: "Virtue is 99% lack of opportunity."

No kidding....Once when I was at band camp......I met this girl named Martha...and..........

In other words, put some serious temptation in front of those girls and see what happens. It's easy to be pure when you're not in love, when you're not in the throes of young passion.

No kidding....Once when I was at band camp......I met this girl named Martha...and..........

It's also easier to get pregnant if you deny that you'll ever have sex until marriage. I know many girls who swore they'd never do it before they were married. Many of them have children your age because they weren't prepared. I don't regret any of my sexual past; it's made me who I am today, and I like who I am. Be happy with who you are. Who gives a damn about self-righteous, uptight people anyway?

That reminds me....Once when I was at band camp......I met this girl named Martha...and..........

 

[martha]

WOW!! Did I hit a nerve with a few people there? I wasn't characterizing all virgins as self-righteous, just those who were giving pax some shit. Many people, both virgins and non-virgins, live non-judgemental lives. It was these particular girls who were giving her a hard time. Settle down and reread. If I've made you uncomfortable about decisions you've made, or made you think too hard, that's not my problem.

I have no qualms about my decisions, or my post, for that matter.

 

[martha]

Oh, and Dreadsox, that was cute.


Yeah, real cute.

 

[Dreadsox]

Oh, and Dreadsox, that was cute.


Yeah, real cute.

 

[pax]

I certainly hope that the point of this thread wasn't just to elicite sympathy from non-virgins. These girls do have something to proud of and I think it's wrong of any of you to put them down because of it

So I, and millions of other women who made life-changing decisions after an awful lot of thought and support from committed partners, have something to be ashamed of?

 

[MollyRose]

I certainly hope that the point of this thread wasn't just to elicite sympathy from non-virgins. These girls do have something to proud of and I think it's wrong of any of you to put them down because of it

imho there isn't anything special about being a virgin or not being a virgin. one isn't something to be proud of more than the other. however i think individuals can be proud of themselves for making the right decision for them - ie to stay a virgin if they want to for religious reasons or to avoid pregnancy or because they haven't met the right partner, or to have lost their virginity because they met someone they loved and wanted to be with in that way.

am i making sense? there isn't anything inherently good or bad about being a virgin or not being a virgin but there's something to be proud of if you've made the best decision for yourself on the subject.

sorry if that's confusing, i hardly ever make sense

 

[garibaldo]

So I, and millions of other women who made life-changing decisions after an awful lot of thought and support from committed partners, have something to be ashamed of?

Oh, please! Let's not glamorize what you did or what other women do on a daily\monthly (hourly? ) basis. If you think that most women had to wrestle with this decision "after an awful lot of thought and support" you're kidding yourself. Most women have sex without all the communal collaboration. If this were the case, you wouldn't be seeing the astronomical number of teenage pregnancies and STDs we're seeing today.

Martha, I don't think you can assume that they were trying to make her feel bad from what she said. I don't think they were trying to give her some "shit", though I might be wrong. I think you assume that in your mind because you stereotype virgins.

"If I've made you uncomfortable about decisions you've made, or made you think too hard, that's not my problem."

What decision could I have made that would make me feel worse than the decisions you've made? You're not a virgin. Are you claiming that keeping one's virginity is something to be ashamed of? Or were you talking about beastiality?

MollyRose, I disagree. The hardest thing in my life is to stay a virgin (esp considering the fine women walking around Cambridge ), but I choose to do so for religious reasons. I can't even form normal relationships because most women in their early 20's expect to have sex in the course of a relationship and VERY few of you are saving it until marriage. Plus, there is the temptation! Yes, unlike Martha's stereotype, I have faced temptation. OHHHH the tragedy of it all! Still, I don't agree that one can simply just blur the lines of morality to make everyone feel good. I still think that morality isn't for everyone's subject manipulation. There is good and bad. Of course, that's just my opinion.

Just to clarify, this is ME giving YOU shit.

 

[MollyRose]

hi garibaldo,

that was exactly my point though, that obviously for you staying a virgin is the right thing to do because of your religious convictions. i'm sure it's not easy and that's why you have every right to be proud of making the right decision for you and sticking to it!

however, don't you also accept that someone might be proud of their decision only to lose their virginity when they're with a partner they love, even if for them it doesn't mean waiting until marraige? your personal beliefs may be that it's wrong to have sex outside of marraige, but others have different beliefs and i don't think you (or anyone else, of course, i'm not singling you out!) should make others feel bad because their moral beliefs differ from yours and they live their life according to their own moral beliefs, not yours!

molly

p.s. if the "this is me giving you shit" comment was directed at me then i'm not sure what i've said to offend you, but i apologise if you are offended and i hope we can have a friendly conversation from now on.

 

[garibaldo]

I was kidding about the giving you shit part. My point was that I don't think morality is just relative, so sex before marriage seems immoral to me. Now, that doesn't necessarily say that I look at non-virgins as bad people. I don't really care what you're doing except in the sense that it creates a negative cultural stereotype of virgins as uptight or losers, which adversely affects me. The whole freelove movement of the 60's is a bane to my existence.

I don't aim to make non-virgins feel bad. I wouldn't have this conversation with a non-virgin unless it was brought up by someone else first (like it was here). So, I don't step out my door looking for every non-virgin so that I can tell them how bad they are.

 

[diamond]

im ok w -
good girls
and
bad girls..

db9

 

[martha]

My goodness, you do go on, don't you?

 

[RavenStar]

Hey! Leave band camp outta this!
*loves band camp*

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

The high and mighty also fall, and when they do, it's a long way down.

yep. the youth leader at my old church acted like she was better than everyone (well, in retrospect, everyone there did), and then one time we separated into girl and boy groups and for some reason, we went into the chick's bedroom who was hosting the meeting.

we got on the subject of virginity, and our youth leader, who's not married, never has been married, and has never even come close, admitted she's not a virgin. that was one of the nails in the coffin for that church. i don't have a problem with people having sex before marriage, but to act all high and mighty, and constantly point out how other people can "do better" in their life by tattooing WWJD on their forehead and then admit that, is just fucking hypocritical.

that is all.

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

Let's not accuse people of stereotyping.

yes, let's not stereotype.

that means you too, you know.

 

[garibaldo]

yes, let's not stereotype.

that means you too, you know.

I told her not to accuse people of stereotyping. I didn't tell her not to stereotype. DUH! Which means I have no obligation to do the same.

Seriously, I think the point of your stupid church story was to point out just how hypocritical churchgoers can be. Wow! A liberal attacking hypocritical Christians, let me go call Guiness.

 

[Dreadsox]

No one can make you feel this way, but yourself.

Guilt, shame, embarrassment all require your cooperation.
It is what?s in your heart that matters.

It is amazing....

The most intelligent part of this thread occured on the second post.

People cannot make you feel badly unless you allow it to happen.

 

[Angela Harlem]

This is interesting. I think a large part of this is actually about stereotyping. Its a real shame it can be so easy for some to do as well. It can be easy to assume a girl or young guy (or someone not even young) might be a bit uptight or see themselves as morally superior, yet we will very rarely know the real reason why someone abstains - unless they state it. Chances are, it is because of a deep religious conviction, or a genuine fear of making that step that holds someone back, or perhaps even taking the romantic aspect of knowing it is best for you to wait until you meet that very special person. There are probably hundreds of reasons why people wait. We can only ever know our own reasons. That said, the same can be for those who may not see sex as a, I guess, significant event, can be deemed as somehow immoral. I dont personally see a huge problem with either choice that is made, to wait, or not to wait. It can become a problem when an ignorant outsider could challenge your position as they may have made some assumptions and pegged you based on an incorrect assessment of your moral values. Either way that goes, it is frustrating. we should only ever do what we feel comfortable doing. We cannot think we are making a mistake with our choices because it conflicts with someone else's.