Charity....From Tax $$$$ or Free Will???? - U2 Feedback

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Old 12-14-2003, 07:28 AM   #1
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Charity....From Tax $$$$ or Free Will????

Well....here is a can of worms!!!!!

When I come to this forum I continuously see the United States bashed for not giving enough to various causes around the world. This does not sit well with me. Hard working people should not have to give their money to causes that they do not support, period. I am not thinking of one cause in particular, but of course coming into this forum, there is one cause that is usually on everyone’s mind.

What does not sit well with me is that I totally believe that the United States through its Churches and other organizations has been giving more to the world than it has been given credit for. I believe that this is the way that we should give our money, and IF we decide to give money to help fight AIDS in Africa, then it is our right to donate out of CHARITY to an organization to do so.

I am tired of seeing the US get bashed from the standpoint of the US government giving when there are PLENTY of people who give through other organizations. I once posted in here a list of US charitable donations through Churches and the data supports that we as a people give way more than many organizations give credit for if we looked at the whole picture, not just the money given out by our government.

I support Bono, but I also believe people have a right to not have their money taken from their pockets unwillingly.
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Old 12-14-2003, 07:45 AM   #2
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Are you talking about something you read? What is it you are speaking of exactly? I haven't had my 3 cups of coffee yet, but seems something is missing in your post. I do agree however, I want to give to whomever I see fit. I don't want it deducted from my pay or taken from me without me having a say as to where it goes and to whom.
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Old 12-14-2003, 07:52 AM   #3
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I am speaking in general....

off the top of my head.....and on demerol....lol
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Old 12-14-2003, 08:11 AM   #4
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Understood. and God love you. I truly hope this medical crisis and pain is resolved for you soon.
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Old 12-14-2003, 08:15 AM   #5
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Thanks...now....tax money or free will?
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Old 12-14-2003, 08:17 AM   #6
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Re: Charity....From Tax $$$$ or Free Will????

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
What does not sit well with me is that I totally believe that the United States through its Churches and other organizations has been giving more to the world than it has been given credit for.
Its churches are bastions of intolerance and discrimination. How does, for instance, the Vatican respond to AIDS? Not by taking command, but by using the situation to justify its belief system and by calling condoms and other forms of birth control evil, smack opposite of the scientific data. Facts would go directly out of the window, in exchange for a "faith-based" pseudophilosophy.

If we had to rely on our churches for human rights, then God help us all.

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Old 12-14-2003, 08:20 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Thanks...now....tax money or free will?
Tax money. Also, if I remember, economic theory states that, to keep a currency at its desired valuation, you have to spend it accordingly. An isolationist approach to our currency would lead to bad inflation. Sure, that may mean some pretty horrifying spending statistics, but that's how it prevents our currency from being overvalued in the markets.

Of course, if you spend too much, your currency becomes undervalued. Is that what is happening now? But I digress...

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Old 12-14-2003, 08:23 AM   #8
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OK....take churches out of it....I spend a lot of my time working for Lion's Clubs International. This is my charity of choice. It is not a church organization. There are many organizations that we could instead put our money to instead of have our money taken from us through taxes.
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Old 12-14-2003, 08:32 AM   #9
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Still tax money. Most churches are centered around corporal works of mercy, rather than outright social justice. The difference, to me, is like putting a band-aid on a deep wound and putting stitches on it. Churches and other organizations, while they can be commended much of the time (when they aren't proselytizing on the job), are ill-equipped to deal with macro-level problems.

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Old 12-14-2003, 12:06 PM   #10
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Great thread Dreadsox!

I do agree with you. People should be free to give to the charity of their choice, or not. No one can support everything. One can choose AIDS or the rainforest, not necesarily both for monetary reasons or because one resonates more than the other.

But in the end, I agree with Melon. Charity as it exists is just a band aid. The problems are systemic, they are political and social. Churches generally don't acknowledge them on this level, which is why I don't go.

Sickness and poverty in the 3rd world is the result of the health and wealth of the 1st world. There isn't enough in this world for everyone in this world to live and consume the way I do.
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Old 12-14-2003, 01:56 PM   #11
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Well Dread how about those of us that don't want to spend our tax money on a war we don't believe in? I don't understand we want the US to be the police of the world and spread democracy, but we don't want to be charitable?
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Old 12-14-2003, 02:02 PM   #12
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That's the paradox. We want everything, but don't want to pay for any of it.

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Old 12-14-2003, 02:11 PM   #13
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If you want your tax money to be spent appropriatly then let you politicans here about it. I as for the cause in Africa am not asking anyone to give to a charity they do not chose to.. that is a personal choice and working for the non profit sector I am full aware of that. My thread regarding what the Bush Administration is doing in regards to the Millenium Goals is money that ia already there, money that has been allocated specifically for the ODA this is not money Bono is or whoever is asking you to donate to a charity.. it is not a charity issue. I'm not asking you to support this if you don't , I am making people aware of what has been happening, tis your own free will to chose or not. The Churches American citizens, they give millions of dollars each year to AIDS .. alone for example Bill and Melinda Gates have given over 100 million.. that I never for one minute negate what individual chose to give . I am humbled by what they do no matter what charity they chose to give it to. So this money has already been taken out of you pockets by tax dollars yes .. yes you should have a voice to how it is spent .. I don't however think that donating .33% of GDP is to much to ask of the U.S for international development .. that is my opinion and everyone is entititled to that
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Old 12-14-2003, 02:16 PM   #14
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p.s the .33% from you GDP does not go to Charity , it goes to the Millenium Goals and a portion of that to the Global Fund . That percentage is for internatioanl development as well. Yes part of that means it goes to Africa... again not a charity but a health crisis and a emergency that th G7 countries are assisting with. Sorry I get carried off on a rampage when people call it a charity when it is not.. my irish temper we will say

P.S my intention is never to bash the U.S ever , I have great respect for the country as I have stated many times.. if bringing out the facts is bashing then I am in the wrong

A favourite of mine:
Quote:
And it makes me ill and nervous when I hear people talk about these issues as charity. We never argued debt relief as a charity issue. We argued it as a justice issue. It is impossible to justify holding children to ransom for the debts of their grandparents, often debts that were taken out for Cold War reasoning and dodgy donors, lenders as well as borrowers. But that's a justice issue. Not giving drugs to people that really ... that are ... easily manufactured. The research and the development is expensive, but there ... the cost of manufacture of these anti-retroviral drugs is not that much. And we can afford it. And this is a justice issue, this is not a charity issue. And I've always picked that up- Bono-
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Old 12-14-2003, 02:29 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Well Dread how about those of us that don't want to spend our tax money on a war we don't believe in? I don't understand we want the US to be the police of the world and spread democracy, but we don't want to be charitable?
I deleted my paragrah in my initial post anticipating this line of thought. I was afraid it would turn into a debate on war.

I think there is more Constitutional grounds for raising money to defend the US.....than raising money to give out for other purposes.


I really was hoping not to debate War.
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Old 12-14-2003, 02:45 PM   #16
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katey if I wanted a thread about Africa....I would have started one about Africa...I used that as a general example. I started this thread with more to it than the Africa issue. In my opinion, the people of the United States give more money than they get credit for. While many here continue to cite examples of what the government pledges and gives, so much is given through other organizations that it should be counted as well.
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Old 12-14-2003, 02:57 PM   #17
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point taken .. and having my career based in non profit world . I would agree with your points fully.. happily in the work that I do I get to see the best of people everyday ( every once in a while the worst) . Yep individual contributions to any charity should be fully recognized. Charity often is needed and exists because of social conditions, given that in Canada our government funding to charitable organizations has not increased in 17 years, it is the individual and corporate donors along with private funders that keep us alive.
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Old 12-14-2003, 02:58 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


I deleted my paragrah in my initial post anticipating this line of thought. I was afraid it would turn into a debate on war.

I think there is more Constitutional grounds for raising money to defend the US.....than raising money to give out for other purposes.


I really was hoping not to debate War.
I wasn't so much wanting to debate war than I was wanting to debate the topic of US foreign policy. Bush has talked a lot about spreading democracy and some don't believe that that is our place.
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Old 12-15-2003, 11:29 PM   #19
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Well ... not being American I'm not particularly up to date with what the government does and doesn't spend its tax dollars on. I do agree that you can't support everything, nor should it be the government's total responsibility to ensure that each citizen is, in essence, giving their fair share.

My charity of choice being Oxfam Community Aid Abroad, which aims to help communities become self-sufficient and produce enough for themselves, rather than relying on aid money to survive, I kind of feel like it should be a personal decision to want to "change" something in terms of political/social circumstances in the developing world, rather than just pledging this amount of money and hoping that it will be enough.

Besides, there are a lot of people in 1st world countries (Australia among them) who would benefit from increased funding to health care and education, but who don't get it for whatever political reason. I know it's not quite the same as the situation in Africa, for example, but I would much rather the government spend their tax money on improving hospital standards here than on what they have been spending it on, that is border protection, detention centres and the like. Or put some of those funds towards helping people in war-torn countries so they don't have a need to come to Australia illegally ...
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Old 12-16-2003, 12:10 AM   #20
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Taxes.

I believe that we, as a group, as a nation, or a society have a duty to the less fortunate. Is it not the Christian view to help out the least brothers of ours? I believe that our governments have a duty, as a whole, to contribute money. Partly because the rich west is directly or indirectly responsible for the plight of the third world due to colonialism, partly because certain regions are overpopulated, partly because we are not all equal in terms of natural resources, partly because we all have citizens in our own nations that are disabled or need special programs, partly because scientific research depends on it, partly because arts depends on it, etc, etc. There are many reasons, and on a large scale, I believe it is the moral duty of a Government to kick in.

As an individual, I also feel a moral duty to act independently in support of a number of personal causes. My grandmother has been dying slowly, every day for over 5 years of Alzheimer's, and therefore, it is an issue I am well educated on, and I support the research fully. I also have a personal investment in WarChild and UNICEF, and since I have family in Africa (SA and Namibia), I am also invested in the AIDS crisis. I am a grad student who works two jobs, and I don't mind a portion of my taxes going to charity, nor do I mind donating it myself as well. Aren't our hearts big enough at the end of the day for more than one thing?
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