Canadian Election

The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

iacrobat

War Child
Joined
Sep 30, 2001
Messages
585
Location
Toronto
For the few Canadians out there.

Well, Paul Martin finally called an election and the campaign is a few days old.

Any thoughts on whats been happening?
Does anyone have any reactions to Harper's plan for the lowest taxes in the world? Or to Layton's campaign and his comments on homeless deaths? Or the Liberal scandal(s)?

Could Harper be the next PM? Can the NDP make a comeback? Liberal minority?
 
I listen to an hour of Canadian Public Radio a day.

"As It Happens" airs at 11pm here.

Last I heard the liberals could be in trouble with a right winger promissing tax cuts.

He is not explaining how popular programs will be maintained.
 
Yeah, Harper is promising this.

What is mind boggling is that this was tried in Ontario by the previous government and it destroyed education and health care, as well as a slew of other services. Toronto went from having one of the best public transport systems in North America to arguably one of the worst.

I can't believe people are still fooled these tax cuts.
 
It sounds like an American Export to Canada.

Will Canadians fall for it?

Seems to work in the US most of the time.

Guess which party views paying taxes as "Good v. Evil"
 
I'll bite, even if I'm not Canadian.

Barring something revolutionary, I imagine that the Liberals will win again, if only because of how Canada's population is distributed. The Conservatives seem to only have real support in the Western provinces, and they just don't have the people, in comparison to Ontario and Qu?bec.

(You can see why the U.S. developed the electoral college 225 years ago, as lowly populated states worried about this; but, on the flip side, America's population centers are now at the mercy of these smaller, generally more conservative states, and is that fair? I don't know either way.)

As for Harper making the "lowest taxes in the world," it would be quite funny, considering that the (Progressive) Conservative, Brian Mulroney, was responsible for the massive GST in Canada. I guess I'd have to read more details of what he wants, but look at the American tax system: the wealthy get away with murder, proportionately, and we have massive deficits to show for it--all while the states raise taxes and fees to make up for our derelict federal government.

I would beware any attempt to lower taxes that drastically, because, frankly, I would hate to see Canada devolve into the United States' terribly neglected infrastructure and social programs. Sure, American corporations have a lot of money (well, not really; deregulation allowed our companies to become much more insolvent, and now many of them are one stock panic away from bankruptcy [K-Mart, Global Crossing]), but our health care is only good for those who can afford it (and rotten for those who can't).

But, really, I can't imagine that Harper will get many votes east of Manitoba, but, I guess, anything can happen.

Melon
 
I hope not Deep, but we fell for it for 8 years in Ontario.

However, I think people desire change from the current goverment which has recently been embroiled in scandals, and been in power for 11 years.
 
iacrobat said:
What is mind boggling is that this was tried in Ontario by the previous government and it destroyed education and health care, as well as a slew of other services. Toronto went from having one of the best public transport systems in North America to arguably one of the worst.

I've been in Toronto's subway, streetcar, and bus systems. Really, if you think it is that bad, you haven't seen Boston's transport system, not to mention the fact that most American cities have none at all. Their subway system is quite nice from my POV. Very clean and smooth!

And, yeah, tax cuts are very tempting for people, and very politically convenient. People don't realize, though, that the money has to come from somewhere, and that if you cut services, you'll just have to spend the same amount of money (and more probably) out of your own pocket in the private sector.

Melon
 
The election will be decided in Ontario, as it always is... however, I'll be interested to see how the maritime vote swings. There seemed to be growing support for the new conservatives, but as well some lingering sentiment for the NDP (with regards to the breakdown of party leadership votes). At this point the election is just a formality, until the opposition can deliver more than glib rhetoric to the incumbent.

Are the platform guides available yet? I was hoping to get an autograph...

:up:

As well, I agree with melon that distributional representation in a legislative capacity probably isn't the answer for the current electoral disparity. Enacting such a policy might actually put power in the West... and do you really want our finger on the button?

:sexywink:
 
Well, in comparison to American subways which are generally filthy, yes, the TTC is clean. But it is poorly developed and needs expansion on several fronts, for which there is currently no money. Streetcars downtown are actually very efficient, but buses in other parts of the city are bogged down by traffic, which is why subway lines need to be expanded, particularly into the east and western suburbs.

Yes, the Conservatives want lowest taxes in the world, presumably lower than that of the third world. Isn't that a brilliant idea?

I am not sure how well Harper will do in Ontario - but he will certainly not do well in the GTA, where even the provincial conservatives did not do well, but were rescued by the 905. Frankly, this would be no contest were it not for the stupidity of the Ontario Liberals imposing this health premium tax. We are stuck with them for the next 4 years, so what people are doing is not voting for the federal Liberals out of spite. It is not that I disagree with the premium per se, I just don't understand how it is fair for somebody who is making $40K/year to be paying $300 while Mats Sundin, who makes 12 million a year has to pay only a $900 premium. That is ridiculous, and if we already have to pay it, then it should be a set percentage of your taxable income. Also, now somebody from Alberta will come and tell us we have it good because they've been paying over $500 health premium/year for years, but let us remember, in Ontario we have to pay 7% GST + 8% PST, while in Alberta, they have no provincial tax, and it is this provincial tax that is supposed to cover health care expenses.

I will vote for the NDP, although I am pretty sure the Liberal candidate will win in my riding anyway.
 
anitram said:
Well, in comparison to American subways which are generally filthy, yes, the TTC is clean. But it is poorly developed and needs expansion on several fronts, for which there is currently no money. Streetcars downtown are actually very efficient, but buses in other parts of the city are bogged down by traffic, which is why subway lines need to be expanded, particularly into the east and western suburbs.

Hmmm...I didn't know that. Do American cities receive federal funding for public transport?

I don't know Anitram. I rode the King car for 2 years every day from Roncesvalles to Bathurst and the service was really inconsistent. I could wait 5 minute or 20 at rush hour.

I might be a little too hard on the TTC. I love in Barcelona and I ride public transport up to 5 or 6 times a day. It is incredible, an urban planner's wet dream.

As for the health premium. I think it's a good idea, but as you said, it disproportionately taxes lower/middle class incomes. Did McGuinty hire Mike Harris as a consultant on this one?
 
... not to go completely off topic, but I will. iacrobat are you on a career-internship, or fulfilling part of a master's matriculation requisite? It seems it's tradition in Canada for students to go to spain and study... the pavillion.

... ahem...

Go Flames Go.
 
anitram said:

I am not sure how well Harper will do in Ontario - but he will certainly not do well in the GTA, where even the provincial conservatives did not do well, but were rescued by the 905.

It is not that I disagree with the premium per se, I just don't understand how it is fair for somebody who is making $40K/year to be paying $300 while Mats Sundin, who makes 12 million a year has to pay only a $900 premium. That is ridiculous.

be fair to mats. i think he makes between 9 and 10. ;)

conservatives are likely to perform well in eastern ontario, i.e. ottawa. in fact ottawa ridings are likely to end up anything but liberal with the ndp's ed broadbent destined to win in downtown core and strong conservative candidates coupled with weak liberals.

i hesitate to say that the election will be decided in ontario but at the moment anger toward the provincial liberals does not bode well for team martin. i am surprised that mcguinty has continued to play hardball with martin's campaign team, refusing to attent funding announcements and whatnot.
 
Pinball Wizard said:
... not to go completely off topic, but I will. iacrobat are you on a career-internship, or fulfilling part of a master's matriculation requisite? It seems it's tradition in Canada for students to go to spain and study... the pavillion.

... ahem...

Go Flames Go.

Nope, I am not studying. I married a hot blooded Catalan! We are in the process of deciding exactly where we want to live. We have spent some time Toronto, now we are living in Barcelona.

Funny you mention this. I only know one other Canadian here. I've never thought of Spain and Canada having a strong connection.
 
Lower taxes, but bigger military!!:crazy:

$1.2 billion for military: Harper
20,000 more troops plus improved helicopters, fighter-bombers and transport planes

CANADIAN PRESS

TRENTON ? Conservative Leader Stephen Harper used a backdrop of grey-painted transport planes at a sprawling southern Ontario air base to promise more money and troops for the military today.

At a campaign stop just outside CFB Trenton, he said a Conservative government would immediately put $1.2 billion more into the defence budget and add 20,000 troops to the ranks.

It would beef up the army with tanks, give the navy hybrid helicopter carriers and provide upgraded CF-18 fighter-bombers and new transport planes.

The rest:

http://www.thestar.ca/NASApp/cs/Con...177&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

Perhaps military spending ought to be increased. But how do you go around promising low taxes and higher spending on military? I hate to imagine what services would be gutted to accomplish this.

I figure the Liberal are bound to win as well. Although I think Jack Layton would make a very interesting Prime Minister.
 
Well i meet Jack Layton last night, i must say he is one passionate man. I have only meet a few politicians in my time, Klien, Martin, McKay, but Jack did seem like he was the most sincere and honest.

I live in Alberta, and if you ask me the entire provience will be Blue on election day. Annie and Kilgour will lose their seats IMO.

But the best thing to happen to CDN politics in many years is about to happen, its called a Minority Gov't with the NDP holding the swing vote, which is going to make the Liberals actually adopt some real liberal policies. FINALLY.

I would vote conservative just to acomplish a minority gov't and i think its the best way a country can be run. The Liberals will not have the power to just steamroll half assed legislation. They will have to make sure it is appesing all angles which gives CDN's better representation.

I will vpte NDP, i was going to vote conservative to prevent the Liberal candidate from winning, but with the new campaign finance laws which gives the party $1.75 every year for thier term i thought that maybe in 10-15 years the NDP will finally have become strong enough to make a gov't.

Vote NDP!

Go Flames GO!!
 
iacrobat said:
I don't know Anitram. I rode the King car for 2 years every day from Roncesvalles to Bathurst and the service was really inconsistent. I could wait 5 minute or 20 at rush hour.


I never had that problem on either the Spadina route or the Dundas or College routes, west of University. Believe me, the buses are a hundred times worse than streetcars, especially the ones which go up and down the 427 at rush hour. Express my ass.
 
The buses are horrendous!

I suppose the Spadina route is excellent because its dedicated.

I have faith in Martin and Layton (more so in Layton) to recognise how vital public transport is. It seems like a no-brainer, I can't believe how much it has been fucked up.
 
I read more on the Conservative leader. The man is clearly nuts. :huh:

Do any of you seriously think that the Conservatives will win? Because it appears that this is just the fanatical Canadian Alliance with a new name.

Melon
 
melon said:
IDo any of you seriously think that the Conservatives will win? Because it appears that this is just the fanatical Canadian Alliance with a new name.

Well, it appears that way because that's exactly what it is.

It honestly all depends on Ontario. If the Conservatives win, they have to thank the Liberal Premier of Ontario for his brilliant health care premium idea - not a terrible idea in itself, but completely conservative in its approach (ie. let's tax the poor not the rich). And even if the Conservatives win, they will have a minority goverment. Yes, they can align with the Bloc, but the NDP would align with the Liberals and we'd have 4-5 years of an essential stalemate.

God forbid they win though.
 
melon said:
I read more on the Conservative leader. The man is clearly nuts.

That's what I've been telling the many around me, but it seems the only tangible platform in the prairie west lies in the conservation of crude capital. Besides, insane campaign promises are always preferable to rational convictions...

Do any of you seriously think that the Conservatives will win? Because it appears that this is just the fanatical Canadian Alliance with a new name.

With the current distaste for all major parties in the country, it's difficult to foresee any result other than a minority government (split somewhere between liberals and conservatives). Recent polls affirm that, and there isn't much political time left for any party to take the forefront.

The fanaticism of the Alliance will endure as long as the West and other satellite provinces retain their objections to the current system of representation. I'm not suggesting the claims are unfounded, but hopefully in the future the manifestation of the West's concern is pursued for their interests... instead of the current reactionary form of Harper.

Until the nature of politics is uprooted, and people actually start presenting opinions and ideas (rather than rhetoric and attack)... Canada will not be "progressive" (in the most non-polar connotation possible).

:sexywink:
 
Last edited:
at the moment, yes, it appears harper and his conservatives can win.

but team martin (that is the result of liberal rebranding efforts, promotion of 'leader' [trustworthy, intelligent] rather than 'party' [corrupt, scandal-bound]) is embarking on a concerted effort to make this a campaign of issues: abortion, gay rights, bilingualism. the conservatives will soon begin to increase the accountability rhetoric beyond its presently high level.

i talked with former ndp party leader ed broadbent on my way in to my office this morning. he is running in ottawa centre. nice guy.
 
kobayashi said:
make this a campaign of issues: abortion, gay rights, bilingualism. the conservatives will soon begin to increase the accountability rhetoric beyond its presently high level.



But those arent issues. Abortion is not an issue, its a done deal. Gay rights is an issue but not a huge one for the average voter. And bilingualism? That might be an issue in Quebec but we know how they are voting.

I wanna hear about health care, preservation of our non-renewable resources, EDUCATION, Military.

Those are issues. The others are after thoughts!

Also, i live in the west, and hate the conservatives and the liberals but if you take an honest look at the conservative platform there are alot of simulatrities to the liberals and anything that the liberals propose that is actually LIBERAL is from the NDP. So the only party that isnt a clone of the other is the NDP thus they will get my vote!
 
bonoman said:



But those arent issues. Abortion is not an issue, its a done deal. Gay rights is an issue but not a huge one for the average voter. And bilingualism? That might be an issue in Quebec but we know how they are voting.

I wanna hear about health care, preservation of our non-renewable resources, EDUCATION, Military.

that's the point-the liberal party will attempt to cast them as issues or items that would come under fire in a stephen harper led canada.

going into the campaign it was expected the conservatives would gain some ground on the liberals, maybe get a minority government. but thus far, the tories have run a very clean campaign which has left the media with nothing exciting and liberal ministers ambushing conservative candidates in the street. the liberals will now try to force the slip ups and embarassments.
 
kobayashi said:
that's the point-the liberal party will attempt to cast them as issues or items that would come under fire in a stephen harper led canada.

going into the campaign it was expected the conservatives would gain some ground on the liberals, maybe get a minority government. but thus far, the tories have run a very clean campaign which has left the media with nothing exciting and liberal ministers ambushing conservative candidates in the street. the liberals will now try to force the slip ups and embarassments.

Looks like you're right on the money.

http://www.365gay.com/newscon04/06/060704canElect.htm

Melon
 
the conservatives are micro-controlling their message and limiting the inane slip-ups/or moments of honesty of intentions (whichever you choose to believe) on the part of their candidates.

from the cbc.ca

repealing a law making it a hate crime to belittle one for their sexual orientation, third party counselling for abortion, reintroducing the death penalty, constitutionally banned gay marriage-none of these were really issues until the conservative candidate began to talk
and many of the conservative candidate's expressed positions are not ones that many canadians envision for their nation. after more than a decade of liberal rule, these ideas have become not just un-Liberal but un-Canadian. these are the things the liberals have to create and/or capitalize upon-essentially steal some of jack layton's socialist fire.
 
Last edited:
Thats what Martin likes to do, steal Laytons platform and make it Liberal.

I understand what you are saying now kobi. You are totally right. Personally i think social issues drive the majority of voting in Cnada. Economics isnt as important. Health care to me is a social issue. Education is social. EI is social. Thats what Martin needs to bring forward to Canada. But he has a terrible record on most of what he speaks, including same sex marriage. He is calling for a free vote on same sex marriage, great, but isnt Harper and the conservatives wanting to do the same.

I just cant see the Liberal turning this around. I hate them more then the conservatives and i'm semi socialist.
 
some polls now showing the conservatives with a slight lead, some show a dead heat.

next weeks debates could be a turning point-martin will have to perform much better than he has in public so far.
 
The french-language debate was tonight. I watched as much as I could, and nobody was really winning. Paul Martin was doing the standard villifying of the Conservatives, trying to make abortion a campaign issue, etc. Jack Layton looked like a fish out of water, and Stephen Harper was stumbling over his words (his French is the worst of the 4 leaders'). Gilles Duceppe seemed to be just a placeholder, but if I absolutely had to give an edge to someone it would be Gilles Duceppe.

English-language debate is tomorrow night, should be a good watch. I hope someone murders Paul Martin and the Liberals tomorrow. :evil:
 
Back
Top Bottom