Can Dress Codes Be Racist?

[nbcrusader]

Come on with the Mr. T reference, I mean you have taken a look around lately right?

Yes, I have looked around lately. I think it is a caricature to suggest that gold chains are part of African American culture. It smacks of a sort of "protective racism". Well meaning at one level, but just as racist at another.

 

[melon]

Yes, I have looked around lately. I think it is a caricature to suggest that gold chains are part of African American culture. It smacks of a sort of "protective racism". Well meaning at one level, but just as racist at another.

My point, at least, was not whether gold chains are part of African American culture or not. My point was that it is not our place to make that definition for them.

Melon

 

[nbcrusader]

The issue is that who and why are we making the decision that chains aren't appropriate? Many black people wear chains over their suits. Why is it not appropriate?

I've asked this three times in this thread yet no one can aswer me.

A simple effort to reduce the individuality from team sports.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

but that's because you are representing the school and you are dealing with children and teenagers. these are professional adult athletes.

just as i represent my place of work, and you represent your place of work, these "professional adult athletes" are representing both the league and the team.

 

[BVS]

Yes, I have looked around lately. I think it is a caricature to suggest that gold chains are part of African American culture. It smacks of a sort of "protective racism". Well meaning at one level, but just as racist at another.

Ah, clever twist. But black pop culture will claim itself that this jewelery is part of it's culture.

 

[BVS]

A simple effort to reduce the individuality from team sports.

So are we going to ban certain color suits, hair lengths, ties with cartoon charaters on them?

Might as well issue team suits, if this is their concern.

 

[Irvine511]

just as i represent my place of work, and you represent your place of work, these "professional adult athletes" are representing both the league and the team.

why are such standards necessary for adults? they all wear uniforms on the court, why is there a need to regulate what they wear to and from games?

i suppose what i'm getting at is less a question of if the team and the league can enforce a dress code -- legally, i believe they can, and i would understand the reasons why they would do so -- however, i first would wonder why they feel the need to do so -- seems to me that they want to make their players a little less "ethnic" for the consumption of suburban white people who have little problem paying $65 for a ticket -- and then where exactly the standards of appropriate dress come from.

you brought up the school analogy, and through the prism of a school, these questions are easily answered. and you're also dealing with minors.

when dealing with a private organization like the NBA, it's quite another thing.

one example: remember the movie "Philadelphia"? during one of the courtroom scenes, they are interviewing one of Tom Hanks' co-workers, and she mentions how the mean white men asked her to wear earrings that were a little less "ethnic" -- meaning, her earrings were too big -- and to wear something a little more "american." and she replied that that they were american, african-american.

i think that fictional scene actually touches on what's going on here.

 

[nbcrusader]

Ah, clever twist. But black pop culture will claim itself that this jewelery is part of it's culture.

If it is black pop culture, is it still racism, or a clash between a culture subset and mainstream culture?

 

[Irvine511]

If it is black pop culture, is it still racism, or a clash between a culture subset and mainstream culture?

the two are not the same, but the overlap in meaningful ways.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

First of all, attacking the individual is childish.

Secondly you are missing the point. Yes this rule applies to everyone, but how many of the white, asian, and european players were wearing chains?

No one is arguing that having the players dress appropriate is the issue.

The issue is that who and why are we making the decision that chains aren't appropriate? Many black people wear chains over their suits. Why is it not appropriate?

I've asked this three times in this thread yet no one can aswer me.

again... dress code rules in sports are put in place so as no one player stands out, making himself bigger than the team as a whole. a giant medalion with spinning diamonds certainly stands out.

and frankly, you really need to pay a little more attention to basketball and/or youth culture as a whole if you have to ask the question as to how many "white, asian and european players were wearing chains."

these rules are in place wether we're talking about jason williams...

or michael jordan...

and don't start with the whole "attacking the individual is childish" routine...

 

[BVS]

If it is black pop culture, is it still racism, or a clash between a culture subset and mainstream culture?

Not a clash, a small subset of the overall umbrella of pop culture and mainstream culture. There's a lot of overlapping amongst these groups as well.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

why are such standards necessary for adults? they all wear uniforms on the court, why is there a need to regulate what they wear to and from games?

i suppose what i'm getting at is less a question of if the team and the league can enforce a dress code -- legally, i believe they can, and i would understand the reasons why they would do so -- however, i first would wonder why they feel the need to do so -- seems to me that they want to make their players a little less "ethnic" for the consumption of suburban white people who have little problem paying $65 for a ticket -- and then where exactly the standards of appropriate dress come from.

you brought up the school analogy, and through the prism of a school, these questions are easily answered. and you're also dealing with minors.

when dealing with a private organization like the NBA, it's quite another thing.

one example: remember the movie "Philadelphia"? during one of the courtroom scenes, they are interviewing one of Tom Hanks' co-workers, and she mentions how the mean white men asked her to wear earrings that were a little less "ethnic" -- meaning, her earrings were too big -- and to wear something a little more "american." and she replied that that they were american, african-american.

i think that fictional scene actually touches on what's going on here.

the other professional sport leagues have similar guidelines, if not flat out rules. is it racist of the yankees to have randy johnson cut his mullet to conform with the team guidelines? and does it hurt that it looks better for corporte sponsors? of course not... i'd be silly to say it doesn't.

but now here, the nba puts forth a dress code, and everyone breaks out the race card... funny, but i find the fact that everyone considers basketball to be a "black sport" a bit racist in it's own right.


try looking at the NFL's rules re: clothing, on the field and off. they're as hardcore as it gets. if you wear the wrong color socks you get fined. when peyton manning wore black cleats in honor of the death of johnny unitas, he was fined by the NFL. dress codes in sports, both on the field and off, are nothing new.

 

[Irvine511]

[Q]Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase


the other professional sport leagues have similar guidelines, if not flat out rules. is it racist of the yankees to have randy johnson cut his mullet to conform with the team guidelines? and does it hurt that it looks better for corporte sponsors? of course not... i'd be silly to say it doesn't.[/Q]

i think that's a good example, and i would have to say that, yes, it is a bit racist to have randy johnson cut his mullet. the mullet could be considered just as "ethnic" as wearing chains on the outside of suits, and for management to force him to conform is exactly the same thing.

what we're getting at here is that there seems to be a dichotomy here -- "acceptable" vs. "ethnic" -- and the notion of what is "acceptable" is created and perpetuated by the arbiters and determiners of "normal" culture, which is white males with money.

i'm really not saying whether or not this is good or bad, but that, yes, these things are clearly racialized.




[Q]... funny, but i find the fact that everyone considers basketball to be a "black sport" a bit racist in it's own right. [/Q]



i'd agree with you. however, i don't think that's the argument being put forth.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

[Q]Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
i'd agree with you. however, i don't think that's the argument being put forth.

i don't agree... that very much is part of this conversation. the NFL's wardrobe rules aren't headline news... neither are those of certain major league baseball teams. but because basketball is inherently considered to be a "black" sport, both by whites and blacks alike, anytime a rule like this comes up it is debated wether or not it is "racist."

heck... there were people who thought that the suspensions handed down by the NBA to the indiana pacers, including stephen jackson, who rampaged into the crowd at the palace of auburn hills last year and started punching fans was, in fact, racist.

when the united states basketball team lost in the olympics to the white europeans, and the team's play was criticized, that was said to be "racist."

 

[BVS]

again... dress code rules in sports are put in place so as no one player stands out, making himself bigger than the team as a whole. a giant medalion with spinning diamonds certainly stands out.

and frankly, you really need to pay a little more attention to basketball and/or youth culture as a whole if you have to ask the question as to how many "white, asian and european players were wearing chains."

So then I ask again where else do we take it? Make them only wear navy suits? All the same ties?

If we're really that worried about individuality, then let's eliminate tatoos on the court, certain hair lengths, etc.

This has nothing to do with individuality.

And yes I watch a lot of basketball and I know what people are wearing on the sidelines.

 

[BVS]

i don't agree... that very much is part of this conversation. the NFL's wardrobe rules aren't headline news... neither are those of certain major league baseball teams. but because basketball is inherently considered to be a "black" sport, both by whites and blacks alike, anytime a rule like this comes up it is debated wether or not it is "racist."

Wow, what a leap. I haven't heard one person in HERE make any of these arguments.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Wow, what a leap. I haven't heard one person in HERE make any of these arguments.

the fact that we're discussing it backs up my argument.

 

[BVS]

the fact that we're discussing it backs up my argument.

Please explain, how us discussing a dress code means we all think NBA is a black sport?

We can't debate an issue as is without context of other professional sports?

 

[melon]

the fact that we're discussing it backs up my argument.

I will say, from my end, that this was never my argument. I always thought of it in terms of individuals within the NBA. In general, I have some qualms over "uniforms," because, by definition, that means that somebody's cultural standards are going to be deemed "better" than anyone else's, and that usually means the rather conservative white standards.

If a white NBA player wants to wear a mullet, I'm all for it. If a black NBA player wants to wear chains, I'm all for it.

Melon

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

So then I ask again where else do we take it? Make them only wear navy suits? All the same ties?

If we're really that worried about individuality, then let's eliminate tatoos on the court, certain hair lengths, etc.

This has nothing to do with individuality.

And yes I watch a lot of basketball and I know what people are wearing on the sidelines.

but they're not doing that... how come everyone always has to go with the "what's next" approach.

the NBA is simply returning to what used to be an unwritten expectation and/or team enforced rule. but now that the players are so over-payed, they've baisicly begun to ignore these rules. this is the nba attempting to reverse that.

the nba also has rules re: sneaker color, short length, socks, headbands/wristbands, warmups, practice jerseys. are these rules also racist?

and on that subject... the new york yankees do have rules regarding tattoos and hair length.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

ahhh... when someone in the media puts a simple caption, even though it was in all likelyhood done without intent, there is some inherent, hidden racist notion that caused whitey to say that the black guy was looting.

but there is absolutely no inherent perception in the minds of the majority of american's that basketball is a "black" sport.

i see.



this entire argument started over a quote made by a man who's past actions and quotes have proven that he is out of touch with reality.

the fact of the matter is that most nba players have come out publicly saying that they have no problem with this rule what-so-ever... just a few quotes...

"No it's not a big deal, not to me. Sometimes you feel lazy and you don't feel like putting some clothes on, but this is a job. We are going to have fun, but this is a job and we should look like we're going to work, that's the way they feel."
-- Cavs swingman LeBron James, quoted in the Oct. 19 Cleveland Plain Dealer

"Personally, I like it. I like to dress up. I kind of came in [the league] when it was ... sort of an unwritten code or law or whatever, that you look nice. It even got to the extreme, with guys [who] would go all out with the designer clothes and so forth. It was a little weird, the NBA turned into a fashion show. But I think it's good."
-- Magic forward Grant Hill, quoted in the Oct. 19 Washington Post

"I mean, it's cool. It's not real harsh. It just changes the image a little. Guys just got to grow up I guess. They're just trying to exclude some things. It's simple to me. Guys need to go out and buy some clothes and start something new.''
-- Celtics guard Ricky Davis, quoted in the Oct. 19 Boston Herald

"You knew it was coming in. I've got a couple of suits in the closet I've got to dust off. Hey, they make the rules; you've got to abide by them.''
-- Celtics swingman Paul Pierce, quoted in the Oct. 19 Boston Herald

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I think maybe the Ron Borges article sums it up best, and the commissioner is just avoiding this issue by worrying about chains and "hiphop" clothes. Like I said, is that what makes a player's "reputation" ?

"But what he fails to realize that it's not the attire that is the problem. It's the headlines.

Not once can I recall a headline that said: "NBA star arrested for baggy jeans.''

Not once can I recall a headline that said: "NBA star sued by girlfriend for wearing hooded sweatshirt.''

Not once can I recall a headline that said: "NBA stars leap into stands to attack fashion police.''

Not once can I recall a headline that said: "NBA star accused of carrying a concealed cardigan.''

The problem has nothing to do with what the players wear, but everything to do with how they think and act. Do you think the fans would have felt any different about Ron Artest if he'd been wearing a three-piece suit when he entered that stands in Detroit last year? "

And basketball to me is not a "black sport". I grew up being a fanatic about a team that had white players like Larry Bird and Kevin McHale and players like Robert Parish and Dennis Johnson. I still don't think of it as a "black sport". Some white men can still jump

 

[nbcrusader]

Wow, what a leap. I haven't heard one person in HERE make any of these arguments.

Early in the thread, the suggestion was made:

it does play into old racist ideas -- that african-americans, specifically males, are essentially hired entertainers, jokers or jesters or singers or dancers or gladiators, for rich white people. the rich white people want to be entertained and to marvel at feats of athleticism or musicality or whatever, but they don't want to put up with that which they might find uncouth, or unsettling, or something that's upsetting to strict notions of decorum in white upper-middle class society.

It is part of the latent ideas expressed here.

 

[AvsGirl41]

the other professional sport leagues have similar guidelines, if not flat out rules. is it racist of the yankees to have randy johnson cut his mullet to conform with the team guidelines? and does it hurt that it looks better for corporte sponsors? of course not... i'd be silly to say it doesn't.

try looking at the NFL's rules re: clothing, on the field and off. they're as hardcore as it gets. if you wear the wrong color socks you get fined. when peyton manning wore black cleats in honor of the death of johnny unitas, he was fined by the NFL. dress codes in sports, both on the field and off, are nothing new.

The NHL's dress code for players is very strict. They are expected to wear casual business attire in and out of the arena, and even on the plane. They can't even kick back in a pair of jeans and a sweatshirt while flying between cities. If they are injured and come to watch the game, same rules apply.

And yes, several of the white European males (particularly from Eastern Europe for some reason) wear chains. If it is part of a culture, it's part of professional sports culture--I have lots of money, and I am going to display it in a gaudy way.

If more players were wearing them on and off the ice, and in "excess," I imagine the NHL would crack down on it. I'm rather surprised they haven't given how easily one could get a stick caught in them.

The NHL is, without a doubt, the whitest sport there is...and they have a dress code. So no, I don't think it is racist to require business casual. I think the leagues take it a little too far (if I've just played a game and hop a plane to fly to Montreal, the last thing I'd want to wear is a suit) but they are a professional organization. You're being paid a ton of money...so if they want you to wear Dockers, wear the Dockers.

If they were banning specifically ethnic displays--dreadlocks, for example, then I would say they had a valid complaint.

 

[BVS]

but they're not doing that... how come everyone always has to go with the "what's next" approach.

the NBA is simply returning to what used to be an unwritten expectation and/or team enforced rule. but now that the players are so over-payed, they've baisicly begun to ignore these rules. this is the nba attempting to reverse that.

WTF? Unwritten expectation?

You mean like Magic Johnson in his bright purple suits, Michael Jordan with his large hoop earrings before any NBA player were wearing them, Cuban in jeans and T-shirts, Shaq in his bright yellow baggy suits w/ matching hats...Dennis Rodman? Sounds like an unwritten expectation of no individuals to me...

the nba also has rules re: sneaker color, short length, socks, headbands/wristbands, warmups, practice jerseys. are these rules also racist?

On the court it makes sense. There are safety reasons, TV issues, and team issues.

 

[randhail]

WTF? Unwritten expectation?

You mean like Magic Johnson in his bright purple suits, Michael Jordan with his large hoop earrings before any NBA player were wearing them, Cuban in jeans and T-shirts, Shaq in his bright yellow baggy suits w/ matching hats...Dennis Rodman? Sounds like an unwritten expectation of no individuals to me...

That is why they are implementing this dress code. Look at the players before Shaq and Rodman arrived on the scene. They were dressed up on the sidelines. Then came an erosion of the dress code. All Stern is doing is bringing the NBA back to where it was. The players today all wear suits at the draft, so why can't they wear one for team related activities.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

WTF? Unwritten expectation?

You mean like Magic Johnson in his bright purple suits, Michael Jordan with his large hoop earrings before any NBA player were wearing them, Cuban in jeans and T-shirts, Shaq in his bright yellow baggy suits w/ matching hats...Dennis Rodman? Sounds like an unwritten expectation of no individuals to me...

THEY ARE NOT SAYING DON'T WEAR BRIGHT PURPLE SUITS.

just like in business, there are people who have style, and those who do not. michael jordan is EXACTLY what the nba wants. he was the epitome of style on and off the court. what you described... i.e. magic johnson, michael jordan and shaq... what they wore is 100% acceptable under this new policy, with the exception of shaq's derby hat.

david stern won't be handing out fines for those who simply can't dress.

 

[BVS]

That is why they are implementing this dress code. Look at the players before Shaq and Rodman arrived on the scene. They were dressed up on the sidelines. Then came an erosion of the dress code. All Stern is doing is bringing the NBA back to where it was. The players today all wear suits at the draft, so why can't they wear one for team related activities.

You're missing the point. Shaq, Jordan, and Magic would still all be within the code yet they aren't reaching the goal to which Headache and NBC were talking about.

These players are wearing suits, the issue is wearing a necklace outside the suit...you may want to read the whole thread.

 

[BVS]

THEY ARE NOT SAYING DON'T WEAR BRIGHT PURPLE SUITS.

just like in business, there are people who have style, and those who do not. michael jordan is EXACTLY what the nba wants. he was the epitome of style on and off the court. what you described... i.e. magic johnson, michael jordan and shaq... what they wore is 100% acceptable under this new policy, with the exception of shaq's derby hat.

david stern won't be handing out fines for those who simply can't dress.

THAT'S MY FREAKIN POINT.

Go back to your post where you said the point is not point out individuality. Well these style elements did that, so why can't someone wear a necklace outside their suit and call it style.

That's the whole point of this thread.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

so i guess the fact that the nhl... they of a 95% white populous... and no one talks about their rules as being racist is completely insignificant to my arguments made earlier...


and funny me, but i thought the point of this thread was "are dress codes racist?"