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Old 01-23-2002, 05:38 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by mug222:
But honestly: you, as a rational human being, cannot seriously believe the total deaths in wars somehow related to Christianity is 17 million. Even Christians that utterly diagree with me on other points cannot truly believe that to be true, right? Right?
I don't know how many have died and I don't believe anyone was on the sidelines of every war that was involved with Christianity and tallied up how many were dead. The numbers are not all that big of a deal to me, if you want to double the 17 million figure for kicks, fine. 34 million in 2000 years compared to 115 million in 100 years.

The number themselves are not what I'm talking about, it is the fact that your claim of more people dying in the name of Christ than any other being false.

Does that make me 'irrational'? I don't really care, just don't expect to pass myths off as fact.
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Old 01-23-2002, 07:08 PM   #42
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More people have died in the name of Christ than any other. To you it is a "myth", to me it is cold, sad, hard fact.

Can you argue with this statement, considering what you have said already (i.e. "Christianity-17 million"): People have died because of Christianity that otherwise wouldn't have.

I'm not sure how that can be argued with, when we are already discussing the ridiculous discussion of whether 17 million or 34 million or 100 million have died because of Christ. 1 dead because of organized religion, in my eyes, is bad enough.

This will be my last post on the subject, so as not to rile anyone more up. Feel free to take the last word.
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Old 01-23-2002, 07:27 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by mug222:
More people have died in the name of Christ than any other. To you it is a "myth", to me it is cold, sad, hard fact.

Can you argue with this statement, considering what you have said already (i.e. "Christianity-17 million"): People have died because of Christianity that otherwise wouldn't have.

I'm not sure how that can be argued with, when we are already discussing the ridiculous discussion of whether 17 million or 34 million or 100 million have died because of Christ. 1 dead because of organized religion, in my eyes, is bad enough.

This will be my last post on the subject, so as not to rile anyone more up. Feel free to take the last word.
I just wanted to know why you consider it fact? Is it a gut feeling? Or do you have actual sources/facts or documentation that
says so?

And as for wars that were started "In the name of Christ", were started by people. Sinful, mortal, selfish, imperfect people. I am no better than those people, but I never have started a war for my own gain and masked it as a cause for Christ. To hold my behavior against God wouldn't really make sense.

Answer me if you like, I'm done.
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Old 01-24-2002, 01:55 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by mug222:
Yes, if you consider Hitler's murders religion-blind you are mistaken. An Aryan nation is not an atheistic nation, and there's that conspicuous absence of Jews.
There's also the conspicuous persecution of Catholic priests in Poland, among other pieces of evidence that Adolph Hitler was not, in fact, a Christian.

Either way, you still insist that more people killed in the name of Christ than in any other name. I'm willing to concede that point, if you can tell me why it's relevant.

If what you say is true, it could simply be the result of the great coincidence that the Roman Empire adopted his teachings as faith (see Constantine), and that the Roman way, a ruthless version of Greek enlightenment, conquered the world through its descendents, the nation-states of Western Europe.

It could be the result of the severe corruption of the Great Commission, that Christians are to preach the gospel to the rest of the world.

It could be the result of a great war between God and Satan - in this case, Satan corrupting God's church the way God used the traitorous Judas to His advantage.

In other words, it could mean ANYTHING! Again, those who killed in His name corrupted the message when they did so. Reminding the world that more people wrongly killed in His name DOESN'T invalidate the man or the message.

So, why harp on it?

[This message has been edited by Achtung Bubba (edited 01-23-2002).]
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Old 01-24-2002, 01:58 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by kobayashi:
i would agree with you but from an 'end user' perspective, someone can thoroughly enjoy the religion and find solace and happiness or whatever within it, and not want anything more to do with it.
i feel for everyone here who has been 'pursued', i have as well but by a different religion of which i believe some individuals on this board associate themselves with(i am not a part of any sort of religous organization).

Sorry this reply is so late, I meant to respond earlier before this thread turned into a "Christianity is the root of all wars" debate.

Anyhow, for the record, I don't care what people want to worship, or how they choose to worship, or what church they choose to worship in. To sound like a complete hippie, I say live and let live and keep on keeping on.

I don't know if I speak for the majority or the minority here. But I do think many (or at least the ones I have come in contact with during my years) people don't have a problem with the teachings of other faiths, it just the fan club they can't stand.

What I do have a problem with is the invasiveness of religious recruiters. I don't like them on my doorstep, as I find nothing more insulting and invasive to my privacy and self worth. Let alone most of them overlook the mezzuzah hanging next to my doorframe. I don't like to be approached in a way where it feels like I am being pressured. I don't like to be lied to - as I felt that I was being lied to by the Scientologists that have aprroached me, since their actions were underlined with a serious alterior motive that I found insulting not only to my intelligence, but to my spirituality, and my spiritual heritage.

As I'm older now, I have come in contact with people of many faiths, and people who have no faith at all. They are no less human than the next, and a great deal of them that are secure with their spirituality have found peace and happiness within their faith. That is all fine and good for them - but when it comes to anyone who wants to shove religion down my throat I'll calmly shut the door. The path they have chosen for themselves may not be the path I am ready to walk down yet, or ever. If I have a question, I know where to look for an answer. If I want to pray, I know where to go. I simply don't want or need invasive tactics to fear me into a religion - that is not the fault of the religion itself, but of it's followers even though a lot of the time they have the best intentions in mind.

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Old 01-24-2002, 07:37 AM   #46
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In my personal experience, Scientologists and Moonies are very reluctant to admit who they are, and you have to know what to look for. The Mormons and Jehova's Witnesses (there, I said it) I've met are pushy and annoying too, but at least they stand up for what they believe in.
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Old 01-24-2002, 11:53 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klodomir:
Moonies are very reluctant to admit who they are,
A college class I took in college visited a Unification Church ("Moonie") compound as part of our study of "New Religions in America."

Of the groups we visited, they were the most pushy; we were scheduled to meet with them mid-morning and stay trhough lunch. However, as none of us had converted by the end of lunch, they decided to extend their information session, even to the point of their head guru asking "so what part of this are you people rejecting?"

And as Klodomir says of them being reluctant to admit who they are, they kept emphasizing themselves as part of Christianity in its final stage.

We had arrived at about 9 in the morning, and by the end of the day, they had kept us there until about 6 p.m. in our sock feet (we had to leave our shoes at the door) and they only fed us some soup and a cookie the whole time. Much to their dismay and surprise, none of us converted.

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Old 01-25-2002, 04:36 AM   #48
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What's the name they also go by, Bama? CARP or something?
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Old 01-25-2002, 09:58 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klodomir:
What's the name they also go by, Bama? CARP or something?

I don't recall, but I can tell you that the tactics this guy was using were full of "crap."

The only "CARP" I know of is a large, boney, trash-eating fish that frequents ponds and rivers of the Southern U.S., a holdover from the prehistoric eras.

~U2Alabama
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