Campaign spending

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Lilly

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All you Americans out there know what I'm saying for sure. Campaign spending is TOO HIGH. Millions of dollars are wasted annually in order to become elected. What's worse is that it's the public's money. Especially when whoever is running is already in office. I think we should have far more strict restrictions on campaign length. Campaigners shouldn't be able to start a year in advance like they do now. It's just obnoxious. I live in Minnesota, and yes, my gorvernor is Jesse Ventura. An embarrassment? Lately, ohhh yes. But one thing I do like about him is that he only spent $700,000 on his campaign, of which none were public dollars. While his cempetitors spent upwards of $4 million. What do you all think about campaign spending?

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Taste is the enemy of art.
 
just look at the new mayor of New York, or the junior senator from New York, or the president of the country, or better yet... ah, nevermind, it's a capitalist society and thus a capitalist government, what do you expect?
 
I definitely agree that campaign spending has gotten out of hand. And unfortunately since it now takes so much money to campaign successfully in the United States for any office no matter how small...some candidates can't keep up. And I think it is for that reason that most people in office are fairly rich white males, though I am glad to see that the trend is being bucked more and more in recent times.

But the level of financial status one must have in order to campaign at all is way out of hand in my opinion.

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"A Bono approved event is a good event!"

You can dream, so dream out loud!

"The way to be optimistic is not to shut your eyes and close your ears." -Bono

Create Light, Create Unity, Create Joy, CREATE PEACE!
 
It's a scary state of affairs, for sure. In Australia it is still possible (at least in theory, ha ha) for a person of humble background to become leader of the state or country, via parliament.

But that too is changing. You'll never see a prime minister who is not Sydney or Melbourne-based, not for a long time anyway.
 
Campaign spending is out of control? I hadn't noticed. (LOL) Actually, I've been ranting about this issue since 1996.
The USA is a democracy AND embraces a capitalistic economy. Why shouldn't we be allowed to separate the government from the private sector? What does representation have to do with an economic system? My solution sounds socialist, but bear with me. If we allow equal airtime for each candidate, abolish the National Debate Commission, thus allowing more candidates into public debates, and give a facelift to the voter registration laws, we will see a change in the way campaigns are runned.
None of this will happen, so unless someone has a plan to reconstruct the current system (Mr. Ralph Nader, please take me up on this) will have to learn to like it.
 
Originally posted by Danospano:
Campaign spending is out of control? I hadn't noticed. (LOL) Actually, I've been ranting about this issue since 1996.
The USA is a democracy AND embraces a capitalistic economy. Why shouldn't we be allowed to separate the government from the private sector? What does representation have to do with an economic system? My solution sounds socialist, but bear with me. If we allow equal airtime for each candidate, abolish the National Debate Commission, thus allowing more candidates into public debates, and give a facelift to the voter registration laws, we will see a change in the way campaigns are runned.
None of this will happen, so unless someone has a plan to reconstruct the current system (Mr. Ralph Nader, please take me up on this) will have to learn to like it.

I don't think your solution sounds socialist (whatever that means). Indeed when it comes to political representation, priorities must be questioned. I'd suggest we live in a society - the economy is a means for that society to function, not the other way around.

Trouble is (off the subject here a bit), the tendency over the last two decades or so is/has been to try and pretend that government is just a funny sort of business that happens to have its top players publicly elected.
 
Most campaign contributions are outright bribery.

If one were to use the same tactics in private business that political candidates use to handle their money, they would spend several years behind bars.

Political Action Comittees are money laundering outfits, plain and simple. There are limits on how much a single indiviudual or organization can contribute to a candidate's campaign. So, to get the millions they need, a candidate will simply create a PAC to which people can donate as much money as they want. The PAC has no limits on how much it can contribute - because it is a simple, innocent grassroots political organization, after all (
rolleyes.gif
). The PAC takes the large contributions, sends them off to the candidate and lets them know who the generous benefactor was.

[This message has been edited by DoctorGonzo (edited 12-30-2001).]
 
I'd love to see campaign spending reduced to $1 million total, with no money allowed from non-individuals, and there being a limit of $1000 that each household can give. TV ads and mail ads should be banned, because they only serve as little more than tabloids--manipulative and generally devoid of truth. Presidential candidates should have to resort to public debates, television interviews, and other public appearances. With mass media and the internet, there should be no worries that people will be ignorant of the candidates come election day.

Melon

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"Oh no...my brains."
 
Well, Leave it to me to be the one to break up the harmony of this post.. I'd just be interested in seeing actually what the political affiliations of the posters in this post are?.. I, however, feel that campaign spending shouldn't be limited.. I dont see anything wrong with people contributing to a person they want to see in office.. Yah, I totally agree, that the amounts of money spent are ri-cock-u-lous, sure money helps a lot... but It still doesn't amount to 'money can buy you an election'.. look at ross Perot..

I disagree with the large majority opinion of teh democrats in that 'soft' money should be limited.. because they still want it that the 'unions' can contribute as much as they want... This is just doing the same thing.. unlimited ceilings.. but in the opposite way.. this time in favor of the democrats..

I'm not quite sure what I think about having a set.. 1 million dollar amount for campaigning.. or what not.. I dont quite think i'd object to that, but When it comes down to it, people that are going to have influence, are going to have influence.. regardless of whether it be through money or some other vehicle.
 
Originally posted by Lemonite:
Well, Leave it to me to be the one to break up the harmony of this post.. I'd just be interested in seeing actually what the political affiliations of the posters in this post are?.. I, however, feel that campaign spending shouldn't be limited.. I dont see anything wrong with people contributing to a person they want to see in office.. Yah, I totally agree, that the amounts of money spent are ri-cock-u-lous, sure money helps a lot... but It still doesn't amount to 'money can buy you an election'.. look at ross Perot..

I disagree with the large majority opinion of teh democrats in that 'soft' money should be limited.. because they still want it that the 'unions' can contribute as much as they want... This is just doing the same thing.. unlimited ceilings.. but in the opposite way.. this time in favor of the democrats..

I'm not quite sure what I think about having a set.. 1 million dollar amount for campaigning.. or what not.. I dont quite think i'd object to that, but When it comes down to it, people that are going to have influence, are going to have influence.. regardless of whether it be through money or some other vehicle.

Well Ross Perot is a curious example. His wealth was what gave him the profile he achieved (more so in 1992, perhaps).
 
Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:
Most campaign contributions are outright bribery.

Yes, but if you closely examine the legislature presidents pass during a term( as I have the past semester for a term paper) it does not really correspond to this. Parties are so divided that it is amazing that anything is passed at all.
As a US citizen, I think that I should be able to contribute as much money as I want to any canidate I see fit. As long as interest groups exist, and believe me, they are not going anywhere, rediculous amounts of money will be pumped into campaigns. As a tax payer, I check the box on my tax return to donate some of my tax money to election campaigns. Make sure to take noticet this year if you feel one way or the other about it.
 
I think it comes down to the fact that allowing unlimited spending on campaigns allows people to buy political influence.

And the interests of the people who have a million dollars to donate to a campaign are completely different from the interests of those who don't have ten dollars to donate.

It's in the interests of oil companies for the President to pull out of the Kyoto Treaty. They can donate millions to Bush to make sure acts in their interests.

Guess what? It's not in the interests of people in countries such as Bangladesh for him to abandon Kyoto because those countries are already suffering the effects of global warming - ie experiencing devastating floods every single year. Only they can't write out a million dollar cheque to persuade him to take some notice of their situation. So exactly how much notice do you think he takes of them? And whose interests do you think are more important here - on the one hand we have people's lives at stake...on the other we have oil companies' profits.

Tell me how we can call that system democratic?
 
Originally posted by Lemonite:
I disagree with the large majority opinion of teh democrats in that 'soft' money should be limited.. because they still want it that the 'unions' can contribute as much as they want... This is just doing the same thing.. unlimited ceilings.. but in the opposite way.. this time in favor of the democrats..

This, of course, is a valid concern, but Republicans are doing the same thing: they want to limit union contributions, but want unlimited individual contributions. Hence, rather than the business donating millions to a campaign, the CEO, as "an individual," can donate millions. And they know that Democrats don't have this same push.

I like my model the best. Forget the $1 million...that is negotiable. My model would eliminate all companies and interest groups--corporations, unions, the Christian Coalition, NOW, etc.--and severely limit the amount that individuals can give so that one person or interest cannot dominate a political party. If one wants true campaign reform, they cannot create a model that obviously is made with the intention of just hurting your opponent.

Melon

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"Oh no...my brains."
 
Originally posted by Hans Moleman:
This, of course, is a valid concern, but Republicans are doing the same thing: they want to limit union contributions, but want unlimited individual contributions. Hence, rather than the business donating millions to a campaign, the CEO, as "an individual," can donate millions. And they know that Democrats don't have this same push.




This is exactly what I said, it's a two way street.

Happy New Year Ya'll.
 
An obvious question, one that has not but SHOULD be asked:

What would be the effects of severely limiting a person's ability to campaign or to solicit campaign funds?

Well...

Let's say we ignore the First Amendment and eliminate a politician's ability to use the mass media advertising of TV, mail, newspaper, etc. The immediate result is that the press becomes supreme arbiter of whose voice is heard. The press will choose who wins the election.

(You could say that already happens. But Ross Perot buying airtime in 1992 proved that it's possible to attract a sizable number of votes and be a political outsider. Making it impossible to buy airtime would have hurt Perot, not helped him.)

That's no good, so let's require "equal time"; let's again ignore the Constitution and require the press to spend an equal amount of time on each candidate. Each candidate is invited to the debates, allowed to write essays of equal length for the major papers, etc. The U.S. already has a dozen or so unqualified and - to be honest - wacky nobodies who run for President. Require "equal time" of the press, and you'll have those guys flooding the airwaves with irrelevancies, and you'll attract even more people who want nothing more than to "run for President" just to publicize their pet concerns. Instead of too little debate, you'll have too much, and genuine issues of concern will be drowned out by the noise.

Of course, one could limit the "equal time" requirement to those candidates that actually stand a chance of winning the election, but that brings us back to the DNC and the GOP.


Looking at campaign funding, I see two choices: limit individual spending, and limit spending by a group.

Limiting individual spending is fruitless. If a person can only give $1000 to a candidate, but a group can give an unlimited amount, he will simply form a small group (on paper, probably asking a few friends to join him) and give what he wanted to via the beginning. Limiting what he can give to a group to prevent that loophole would cause serious damage to minority groups that work for the legal protection of an entire race on the backs of those few who can donate to the cause.

Finally, limiting what a group can give thows out the metaphorical baby with the bathwater. PAC's are gone, sure, but so are the political powers of the AARP and every other politically-minded organization. In fact, it destroys one of the bedrocks of American political change: a handful of individuals with the same concerns forms an organization which finds and financially supports candidates that champion their causes.

The bottom line is this: there is no way to prevent the "bribery" of corporations and the wealthy without severely limiting the rights of individuals to create organizations like the NRA and the AARP and to financially support political candidates throught those groups. There's no way to keep individual freedom intact with those suggestions.

While spending caps look great on paper, the effects seem to be disasterous. It seems that very few people think of the long-term and large-scale effects of these "reforms", but that doesn't mean the effects will not occur.
 
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
Let's say we ignore the First Amendment and eliminate a politician's ability to use the mass media advertising of TV, mail, newspaper, etc. The immediate result is that the press becomes supreme arbiter of whose voice is heard. The press will choose who wins the election.

I see people like to throw around the First Amendment like a pair of dirty panties, so let's see what it really says:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Nowhere does it guarantee a politician the right to amass ridiculous amounts of money from any possible source. Limiting money does not imply limiting speech. With such logic as above, we could say that money laundering laws breach my First Amendment rights as well.

(You could say that already happens. But Ross Perot buying airtime in 1992 proved that it's possible to attract a sizable number of votes and be a political outsider. Making it impossible to buy airtime would have hurt Perot, not helped him.)

How many political candidates buy half-hour infomercials on the issues? Only Ross Perot and only once (unless you remember Lyndon LaRouche). What do candidates really buy? 30-second blurbs, where they gloss over the facts, distort the facts over their opponents, and go on smear campaigns, while making vague promises on certain issues. This is a problem under both the Republican and Democratic parties, not just one of them. Last I heard, libel and defamation, while "speech," are not automatically protected under the First Amendment.

That's no good, so let's require "equal time"; let's again ignore the Constitution and require the press to spend an equal amount of time on each candidate. Each candidate is invited to the debates, allowed to write essays of equal length for the major papers, etc. The U.S. already has a dozen or so unqualified and - to be honest - wacky nobodies who run for President. Require "equal time" of the press, and you'll have those guys flooding the airwaves with irrelevancies, and you'll attract even more people who want nothing more than to "run for President" just to publicize their pet concerns. Instead of too little debate, you'll have too much, and genuine issues of concern will be drowned out by the noise.

"Equal time" does not violate the Constitution. In fact, it's funny you use that term. "Equal time" was part of a 1933 Communication Act (I wish I remembered the exact name) that mandated that, if a station decided to make a stance on a certain issue--whether that be abortion or a certain political candidate--the opponent was guaranteed "equal time" to make a rebuttal. Of course, I do believe that was eliminated in the 1980s under a different law, but the next time you wish to talk about constitutional law, I'd look at past precedent.

Of course, one could limit the "equal time" requirement to those candidates that actually stand a chance of winning the election, but that brings us back to the DNC and the GOP.

And, somehow, under this current deregulatory system, the third parties get represented?

Looking at campaign funding, I see two choices: limit individual spending, and limit spending by a group.

Brilliantly vague. There are a few categories: individuals, households, foreign citizens, foreign groups, businesses, unions, and interest groups/PACs. I'm sure there are more, but this is a good start.

Limiting individual spending is fruitless. If a person can only give $1000 to a candidate, but a group can give an unlimited amount, he will simply form a small group (on paper, probably asking a few friends to join him) and give what he wanted to via the beginning. Limiting what he can give to a group to prevent that loophole would cause serious damage to minority groups that work for the legal protection of an entire race on the backs of those few who can donate to the cause.

I agree that simply limiting individuals will just lead to the creation of fictitious groups. Likewise, just limiting groups and allowing unlimited individual contributions (like the Republican Party has advocated) will just allow particularly wealthy groups (businesses, etc.) to funnel money to the CEO, who will donate as an "individual."

Finally, limiting what a group can give thows out the metaphorical baby with the bathwater. PAC's are gone, sure, but so are the political powers of the AARP and every other politically-minded organization. In fact, it destroys one of the bedrocks of American political change: a handful of individuals with the same concerns forms an organization which finds and financially supports candidates that champion their causes.

Lobbying and lobbyist groups were not permitted until the 1930s. Obviously, our country ran perfectly fine before that. The reason behind them, though? Politicians, supposedly, were so far removed from their home district that lobbyists would inform them of the issues. In a romanticized fantasy, this would work, but the reality is that these groups just further their own agendas, regardless of what constituents want.

Regardless, this is not about lobbying, but campaign contributions. In fact, you've just made a very disturbing slip, but it's real: campaign contributions influence politics. You said so, in not so many words, yourself. If the AARP, for instance, gives money to Senator X, it is expected that Senator X will bend over backwards for it. If Dole Fruits gives money to Senator Y, it is expected that he will do something in return--like overthrow the government of Honduras. Once again, limiting campaign contributions is not the same as limiting speech. In fact, I believe that, by barring their abilities to give money to any candidate or party, you can put PACs like AARP and large corporations like Microsoft at the same level of political influence. They can still send lobbyists, because what I advocate does not restrict that, and a Senator will not have money that binds them to look after the interests of one group over another. This is what a Republic is all about. What we have is the equivalent of bribery.

The bottom line is this: there is no way to prevent the "bribery" of corporations and the wealthy without severely limiting the rights of individuals to create organizations like the NRA and the AARP and to financially support political candidates throught those groups. There's no way to keep individual freedom intact with those suggestions.

To reiterate, limiting an individual's or interest group's ability to give campaign funds is not the same as limiting their speech. The NRA and AARP can still lobby their interests, but, this time, they cannot throw money at a Senator to look after their interests over others' interests.

While spending caps look great on paper, the effects seem to be disasterous. It seems that very few people think of the long-term and large-scale effects of these "reforms", but that doesn't mean the effects will not occur.

Actually, spending caps look better than ever.

Melon

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"Oh no...my brains."
 
How many people in this discussion actually work in this field? Because, as someone who does, I can tell you there's a lot of bad information in these threads.

First of all, not all public elections are publicly financed. In fact, the only federal public financing is available to presidential candidates who have to subscribe to a spending cap. And the only monies available to this fund are funded by people who specifically indicate on their tax forms that they want $1.00 of their tax money to go to this fund.

As for the cost of security details provided to candidates who are already publiclly elected officials, campaigns must reimburse. Thus, when the President takes Air Force One on a campaign trip, the campaign pays for the operating costs of the plane.

Second, there is a limit as to how much money a PAC can contribute to a campaign.

Third, the Supreme Court found in Buckley v. Valeo that a limitation on an individual's expenditures is indeed a violation of the 1st Amendment.
 
Aren't corporations subject to taxes and the laws of the land, technically at least? If so, then shouldn't they be allowed to participate in the political process?

And also, MOST small businesses are corporations of some sort, so it is not strictly a "big business" issue.

~U2Alabama
 
Originally posted by Hans Moleman:
I see people like to throw around the First Amendment like a pair of dirty panties, so let's see what it really says:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Nowhere does it guarantee a politician the right to amass ridiculous amounts of money from any possible source. Limiting money does not imply limiting speech. With such logic as above, we could say that money laundering laws breach my First Amendment rights as well.

And I see that you like to misread what I say, through either mere incompetence or an intentional effort to misrepresent my views.

I did NOT say or imply that the First Amendment protects a right to "to amass ridiculous amounts of money from any possible source".

I brought up the First Amendment because it seems to me that it does protect A) the right of a political candidate or party to buy space or time to advertise on mass media and B) the right of mass media to determine its own content.

A) A candidate and a mass media company have the First Amendment right to negotiate an advertising contract without governmental prohibition. It seems clear to me that politcal speech is the speech MOST protected by the Amendment I, and it seems equally clear that mass media is the most powerful way to deliver political speech. Prohibit mass media advertising, you step all over the First Amendment.

B) You bring up the "equal time" mandate from a law from the FDR era, one that was overturned in the 80's and actually returned to make the rounds of Congress in the 90's.

Yes, it was never overturned by the Supreme Court. But that doesn't make it less threatening to the First Amendment, and here's how the 90's version (had it been enacted) would have been used:

The country has several politically slanted radio talk show hosts, most notably Rush Limbaugh, a conservative who broadcasts 15 hours a week on around 500 stations nationwide.

The "Fairness Doctrine" would have required 15 hours of response time on all 500+/- stations. To be completely honest, no liberal comentator has EVER been as popular as Rush. The stations would lose money in the 15-hour response, thus they would drop the conservative so they wouldn't HAVE to air the liberal.

Even if that didn't happen, the government is still telling stations what they HAVE TO AIR over long periods of time. That seems to be a clear violation of free speech.

I would respond further, but my vacation beckons again. I would ask that you would start reading what I say more carefully, that you would quit throwing around misrepresentations like a "pair of dirty panties."

Thanks.
 
Originally posted by devalera1:
Third, the Supreme Court found in Buckley v. Valeo that a limitation on an individual's expenditures is indeed a violation of the 1st Amendment.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there currently limits on individual campaign contributions?

But I find the repercussions of the above statement to be incredibly vague. I could argue, on the above, that by requiring that certain medicines be only acquired through prescription to be a limit on my expenditures.

Melon

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"Oh no...my brains."

[This message has been edited by Hans Moleman (edited 01-03-2002).]
 
You're right Hans.

An individual can only donate $1,000.00 per election to a campaign.

Thus, the maximum you can donate as an individual to a specific candidate is $2,000.00 ($1,000.00 for a primary + $1,000.00 for a general)
 
Originally posted by U2Bama:
Aren't corporations subject to taxes and the laws of the land, technically at least? If so, then shouldn't they be allowed to participate in the political process?


"Participation" is one thing. "Domination" is another. Historically, this is a problem. Under the most laissez-faire capitalist model during the late 19th century, there was a severe problem of monopolistic behavior, labor abuse, and the "buying" of senators and representatives. I'm sure, from history class, we all remember the political cartoons where you had the senators caricatured as fat pigs with the name of the industry (i.e., oil, etc.) that they were bought by? Or was everyone asleep?

And also, MOST small businesses are corporations of some sort, so it is not strictly a "big business" issue.

"Small business" does not have the power to dominate the political arena. A start-up software company, for instance, will not dominate like Microsoft.

Melon

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"Oh no...my brains."
 
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
And I see that you like to misread what I say, through either mere incompetence or an intentional effort to misrepresent my views.

You sound like Rush Limbaugh more and more, don't you? So it is either "incompetance" or a vast left-wing conspiracy? One extreme to the other?

I did NOT say or imply that the First Amendment protects a right to "to amass ridiculous amounts of money from any possible source".

"The bottom line is this: there is no way to prevent the "bribery" of corporations and the wealthy without severely limiting the rights of individuals to create organizations like the NRA and the AARP and to financially support political candidates throught those groups. There's no way to keep individual freedom intact with those suggestions."

The downright implication of this statement and others you wrote was that "campaign contributions" and "speech" were one in the same, and that in limiting "campaign contributions" would be limiting "speech." But we should be talking about "right to assembly." Either way, preventing Groups A-Z from contributing to political campaigns does not infringe on their right to assemble or to petition a redress of grievances.

I brought up the First Amendment because it seems to me that it does protect A) the right of a political candidate or party to buy space or time to advertise on mass media and B) the right of mass media to determine its own content.

We've seen political ads, though. They are little more than manipulative tabloids or those car ads in newspapers that advertise great rates, but, in the fine print, you realize that it wasn't what it was cracked up to be. Libel and defamation is not automatically protected under the First Amendment.

As for issue B, broadcast media is open to regulation under the FCC. Hence, the FCC is empowered to regulate content in all sorts. Normally, it bans nudity, violence, and language, but the FCC is free to regulate on anything content-wise.

A) A candidate and a mass media company have the First Amendment right to negotiate an advertising contract without governmental prohibition. It seems clear to me that politcal speech is the speech MOST protected by the Amendment I, and it seems equally clear that mass media is the most powerful way to deliver political speech. Prohibit mass media advertising, you step all over the First Amendment.

What I think is more attainable, rather than outright banning TV and print ads, is to strictly enforce libel and defamation laws in campaign issues, since a lot is at stake. They should be just as accoutable, if not more accountable, than supermarket tabloids, because, at least, we think of the "National Enquirer" as a joke. When politicians distort or mislead, we tend to trust them.

But "mass media advertising" is already regulated by the government. You can't put on cigarette or alcohol ads, for instance. Is that not an infringement of First Amendment rights as well? Once again, due to the idea of "limited spectrum," the Supreme Court allows the FCC to regulate content of any kind.

B) You bring up the "equal time" mandate from a law from the FDR era, one that was overturned in the 80's and actually returned to make the rounds of Congress in the 90's.

Yes, it was never overturned by the Supreme Court. But that doesn't make it less threatening to the First Amendment, and here's how the 90's version (had it been enacted) would have been used:

The country has several politically slanted radio talk show hosts, most notably Rush Limbaugh, a conservative who broadcasts 15 hours a week on around 500 stations nationwide.

The "Fairness Doctrine" would have required 15 hours of response time on all 500+/- stations. To be completely honest, no liberal comentator has EVER been as popular as Rush. The stations would lose money in the 15-hour response, thus they would drop the conservative so they wouldn't HAVE to air the liberal.

Even if that didn't happen, the government is still telling stations what they HAVE TO AIR over long periods of time. That seems to be a clear violation of free speech.

The "Fairness Doctrine"...that's right. The name was on the tip of my tongue.

Your opinion is that it is a clear violation of free speech, but the Supreme Court never overturned it. It fell under the FCC's ability to regulate the media, which has been upheld time and time again by the Supreme Court. The only reason the "Fairness Doctrine" did die was due to the climate of the Reagan-era FCC, which, obviously, was deregulatory in regards to business practices.

My point in bringing the "Fairness Doctrine" up was not in the "fairness" or unfairness of the FCC ruling, but that such limitations are not unconstitutional. If the FCC so desired, they could resurrect the "Fairness Doctrine" at any time.

Personally? I see no need to make a return to the "Fairness Doctrine" at this time. Networks seem to be doing a fair job at "fairness" in news on their own currently.

I would respond further, but my vacation beckons again. I would ask that you would start reading what I say more carefully, that you would quit throwing around misrepresentations like a "pair of dirty panties."

Enjoy your vacation. It is always enjoyable to argue with you.

Melon

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"Oh no...my brains."

[This message has been edited by Hans Moleman (edited 01-03-2002).]
 
Originally posted by devalera1:
You're right Hans.

An individual can only donate $1,000.00 per election to a campaign.

Thus, the maximum you can donate as an individual to a specific candidate is $2,000.00 ($1,000.00 for a primary + $1,000.00 for a general)

Well, I agree with these limits, which, obviously, are not unconstitutional now are they?

My issue, currently, is that under the Republican model of campaign finance reform, they want to restrict the ability of businesses, unions, and organizations to contribute, but to allow unlimited individual contributions.

The obvious motive is to sting the Democrats, who, generally, don't have the backing of wealthy individuals like the Republican Party does. All you need is the Walton family ("Wal-Mart") and Bill Gates to make an appearance, and they could have all the money they ever so desired.

This reminds me of when the Republican legislature in Michigan banned Bingo as a means to raise campaign funds, because they knew that Democrats used this method heavily.

Melon

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"Oh no...my brains."
 
You sound like Rush Limbaugh more and more, don't you? So it is either "incompetance" or a vast left-wing conspiracy? One extreme to the other?

I sound like Rush? Thank you.
smile.gif


But, again, you misrepresent what I said. I did not say that it is "either incompetance or a vast left-wing conspiracy". I said it was either incompetance on your part only or an effort on your part only to misrepresent what I said.

I did not suggest a "vast conspiracy". I suggested a conspiracy of one - YOU, MELON - to jump to impossible conclusions about my posts in order to discredit me.

In the current example, the most recent in a long line of examples, I never said or implied that campaign contributions was equivalent to free speech (twice now, you've quoted the same paragraph from my first post in this thread; neither time did you explain how that paragraph implies the equivalence).

What I did imply was that A) a candidate has the First-Amendment right to advertise and B) individuals and organizations have the right to financially support candidates who agree with their beliefs.

A and B are two separate statements. A has everything to do with Amendment I. B has nothing to do with Amendment I. The right to advertise is speech, the right to fund the candidate isn't - and I never said or implied otherwise.

If you must know, I believe the question of campaign financing falls under the Tenth Amendment, you know, the one that says that the people actually reserve more rights than is listed in the Bill of Rights. It seems to be a necessary right, given our system of capitalism and elections. Candidates need money to run a campaign; individuals and groups have a limited right to do what they will with their own property; ergo, it seems reasonable that individuals and groups can fund the campaign.

Returning to my complaint of "one extreme or the other", I made the complaint because I find you jumping to conclusions that SIMPLY ARE NOT THERE.

This is how I draw the above conclusion of either incompentence or intentional misrepresentation, written in short, easy-to-read sentences:

* You have frequently drawn from my posts conclusions that cannot be logically drawn.

* You are drawing false conclusions either accidentally or intentionally. (Is there another possibility?)

* If you are consistently drawing these false conclusions accidentally, it must be through some form of incompetence. You are either merely scanning what I write, bringing with you a barrel of assumptions about me, or suffering from an incomplete knowledge of the English language.

* If you are drawing these false conclusions intentionally, it must be through an effort to make me look bad - or at very least, make yourself look good by creating "straw man" arguments just to knock them down.

Let's look at what I last said, and what you last said:

ME: And I see that you like to misread what I say, through either mere incompetence or an intentional effort to misrepresent my views.

YOU: You sound like Rush Limbaugh more and more, don't you? So it is either "incompetance" or a vast left-wing conspiracy? One extreme to the other?

You turned an accusation that you alone may be intentionally misrepresenting my views into an accusation that there is an entire conspiracy misrepresenting me.

How in the hell did you reach that conclusion, Sherlock?
 
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
I sound like Rush? Thank you.
smile.gif

That wasn't exactly a compliment.
tongue.gif


But, again, you misrepresent what I said. I did not say that it is "either incompetance or a vast left-wing conspiracy". I said it was either incompetance on your part only or an effort on your part only to misrepresent what I said.

Or, perhaps, there is that middle road called "difference of opinion" or lack of clarity on your part.

I did not suggest a "vast conspiracy". I suggested a conspiracy of one - YOU, MELON - to jump to impossible conclusions about my posts in order to discredit me.

Yup...paranoid just like Rush. I don't need "impossible conclusions." Just historical reference and previous court precedent.

In the current example, the most recent in a long line of examples, I never said or implied that campaign contributions was equivalent to free speech (twice now, you've quoted the same paragraph from my first post in this thread; neither time did you explain how that paragraph implies the equivalence).

What I did imply was that A) a candidate has the First-Amendment right to advertise and B) individuals and organizations have the right to financially support candidates who agree with their beliefs.

"Let's say we ignore the First Amendment and eliminate a politician's ability to use the mass media advertising of TV, mail, newspaper, etc."

My point was that you were wrongly invoking the First Amendment. By limiting any of this, you aren't "ignoring" the First Amendment. The abolition of mass media advertising could conceivably happen under the current legal structure.

A and B are two separate statements. A has everything to do with Amendment I. B has nothing to do with Amendment I. The right to advertise is speech, the right to fund the candidate isn't - and I never said or implied otherwise.e states respectively, or to the people."

If you must know, I believe the question of campaign financing falls under the Tenth Amendment, you know, the one that says that the people actually reserve more rights than is listed in the Bill of Rights. It seems to be a necessary right, given our system of capitalism and elections. Candidates need money to run a campaign; individuals and groups have a limited right to do what they will with their own property; ergo, it seems reasonable that individuals and groups can fund the campaign.

Amendment 10: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

An incredibly vague amendment. But Congress was empowered to create laws under the Constitution, and, barring any Amendment that states otherwise, campaign spending is certainly open to limitation by Congress. The right to campaign spending is not guaranteed specifically anywhere. A constitutional amendment, of course, could change that.

Returning to my complaint of "one extreme or the other", I made the complaint because I find you jumping to conclusions that SIMPLY ARE NOT THERE.

This is how I draw the above conclusion of either incompentence or intentional misrepresentation, written in short, easy-to-read sentences:

* You have frequently drawn from my posts conclusions that cannot be logically drawn.

* You are drawing false conclusions either accidentally or intentionally. (Is there another possibility?)

* If you are consistently drawing these false conclusions accidentally, it must be through some form of incompetence. You are either merely scanning what I write, bringing with you a barrel of assumptions about me, or suffering from an incomplete knowledge of the English language.

* If you are drawing these false conclusions intentionally, it must be through an effort to make me look bad - or at very least, make yourself look good by creating "straw man" arguments just to knock them down.

Let's look at what I last said, and what you last said:

ME: And I see that you like to misread what I say, through either mere incompetence or an intentional effort to misrepresent my views.

YOU: You sound like Rush Limbaugh more and more, don't you? So it is either "incompetance" or a vast left-wing conspiracy? One extreme to the other?

You turned an accusation that you alone may be intentionally misrepresenting my views into an accusation that there is an entire conspiracy misrepresenting me.

How in the hell did you reach that conclusion, Sherlock?

This is very amusing. A complete deflection of my points, turning into a series of personal accusations. The topic-at-hand, as written above, is not on campaign spending or even free speech, but a series of paragraphs on how I try and "misrepresent" you.

I have only two things to state on that:

1) hy?per?bo?le (h-p?rb-l) n. A figure of speech in which exaggeration is used for emphasis or effect, as in I could sleep for a year or This book weighs a ton.

2) met?a?phor (mt-f?r, -fr) n. a) A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in ?a sea of troubles? or ?All the world's a stage? (Shakespeare).

b) One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol: ?Hollywood has always been an irresistible, prefabricated metaphor for the crass, the materialistic, the shallow, and the craven? (Neal Gabler).

But I must commend you in your Rush Limbaugh-style of debating. An excellent attempt to paint yourself as the victim, while blatantly ignoring the point. Unfortunately for you, I picked up on that style of his a long time ago.

If you wish to talk about "campaign spending" or any of the political points at hand, feel free to comment. If this is going to turn into a caddy "smear" debate, I will move on.

FYI, I am not "intentionally" smearing you at all. Any such representation is pure coincidence.

Melon

------------------
"Oh no...my brains."
 
Originally posted by Hans Moleman:
My issue, currently, is that under the Republican model of campaign finance reform, they want to restrict the ability of businesses, unions, and organizations to contribute, but to allow unlimited individual contributions.

Melon:

I thought you always sided with the Democrats because they champion "individual freedom" while Republicans look out for "big business freedom." Is this a policy shift, or are you worried about the way wealthy Republicans spend their money? And if you are, how do you feel about the way wealthy liberals, such as Ted Turner and Babs Streissand, spend THEIR money? Just curious. Thanks.

~U2Alabama
 
Let's be realistic about the political parties: wealth corrupts. I am worried about any influence the wealthy have on politics, regardless of ideology, because they represent less than 1% of the American populace, but seemingly have so much influence on political agendas of both parties.

Why controls at the legislative level are necessary is that, unless a candidate chooses to sell themselves to wealthy interests under the current law, they will never have the funds to compete at the same level as the other candidates.

The Democrats, traditionally, did champion "individual freedom," but it long since faded away, thanks to the political climate of the last two to three decades. I'm honestly disgusted with both parties.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
 
That's a fair-minded answer; I have my disgusts with both parties as well. I just hope that people are consistent in their views on limiting individual campaign contributions.

~U2Alabama
 
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