Campaign Lies

[KingPin]

Originally posted by Bono's American Wife


But for the greater good of what? What has the US gained? I'm open to hearing your theories but please explain what good has come from 9/11?

- Oil pipelines through Afghanistan that have been blocked for years.
- Increased patriotism amongst Americans.
- Faith and Support for a government that was being criticized heavily.
- Free license to attack "terrorists" like Iraq, North Korea, etc.
- An excuse to back out of treaties and agreements concerning weapons, torture, etc.
- An excuse to beef up "national security" with things like starting a civilian spy program, or sealing up government documents that were previously available.

[KingPin]

Originally posted by z edge
I'll admit those pictures don't show much wreckage, and it is hard to pick out. However you can see some debris that appears to be wreckage.

Also, if a plane can travel at 650 mph and NOT travel all the way thru WTC, then why would you expect a plane to skid on it's belly and still penetrate all of the buildings' layers?

As far as the remains of the passengers, disentigrated in the fire/explosion. Wasn't this plane full of fuel?

ANd there is a thing called Photoshop too.

All of those photos can be found on the US Military's website.

If the plane was disintegrated by the fire and explosion, then why is the grass around the impact area green and untouched?

[KingPin]

Originally posted by speedracer


1. Are you for real?

2. Given the large amount of fuel in the plane and the thermal conductivity of metal, the plane would very likely be severely deformed upon impact. You expect to see easily recognizable pieces of wreckage if a plane crashes, but not when it incinerates.

Metal doesn't just burn away. When a plane crashes like that, you're right, there's insane amounts of fire, which burn up much of the planes contents and fuel. But the photos don't show any fire of that magnitude. The firefighters are only 40 feet away from the building, and they're on green grass.

[speedracer]

Originally posted by KingPin


Metal doesn't just burn away. When a plane crashes like that, you're right, there's insane amounts of fire, which burn up much of the planes contents and fuel. But the photos don't show any fire of that magnitude. The firefighters are only 40 feet away from the building, and they're on green grass.

Huh? Look at how much of the building is charred and smoky...

[pax]

9/11 a government-sponsored conspiracy? I sincerely doubt it. There was too much of a chance for things to go even more horribly than they actually did. If the Pentagon crash was planned, for example, just think of the consequences if the plane had landed just slightly differently--national security nightmare, with all sorts of equipment and intelligence destroyed. That wouldn't have served our purposes, would it?

And, cynical though this may sound, if some national disaster had been planned for political gain, I doubt they would have chosen such a profitable place as WTC for the destruction target. I would venture that many Republicans have lost lots of money (among other things) due to 9/11.

Bottom line, though, 9/11 was a vicious and premeditated attack on the United States most likely perpetrated by the Al-Qaeda terrorist network. Although there were surely some security holes and whatnot, our government surely cannot be held responsible. We are only beginning to figure out how difficult it would have been to prevent--and how difficult it will be to prevent from happening again.

Much as I don't like (That's My) Bush, I sincerely doubt that he or his administration would have collaborated with terrorists for 9/11.

::pause::

Whoa. I think z edge and I actually agree on something. Where's 80sU2isBest?

[z edge]

Originally posted by paxetaurora

:ause::

Whoa. I think z edge and I actually agree on something. Where's 80sU2isBest?

See Paxy, that wasn't so hard now was it??

I think this may be only the beginning of a new conservative jaunt for you

welcome aboard

[Danospano]

Ho--hum. Kingpin and I are simply speculating. Stop calling us crazy, because we're "thinking" outside the box.

The government benefited greatly from the attacks. As Kingpin pointed out the Executive Branch was basically given a free ride with any legislation they want to pass before Congress. This is scary, and usually impossible, but terror made it possible. I honestly believe that people high up in the government had advanced knowledge of such an attack, but let it slide for the good of the country. It created more jobs in the defense department, stimulated the economy by a greater production of military weapons, took an angry, evergrowing consenous to the sidelines, and gave the government more power than they ever wished to possess.

Destroying the WTC is a huge event, and while many lives were lost, we must ask the question: When has the U.S. government put the needs of the working-class, few above the needs of the powerful elite? Never. Never. Never. Our government's trackrecord is disgusting and should be evaluated before we pledge allegiance to their seemingly divine given rights.

[kobayashi]

does anyone have any thoughts on the about-face bush appears to perform regarding economic policy as laid out in the article?

[Angela Harlem]

The American government are not murderers. Bush is not a murderer.
Even if it wasn't a plane, what difference does it really make? That is a big if. There is no benefit in 3000+ lives.


"- Oil pipelines through Afghanistan that have been blocked for years.
- Increased patriotism amongst Americans.
- Faith and Support for a government that was being criticized heavily.
- Free license to attack "terrorists" like Iraq, North Korea, etc.
- An excuse to back out of treaties and agreements concerning weapons, torture, etc.
- An excuse to beef up "national security" with things like starting a civilian spy program, or sealing up government documents that were previously available."


Those do not have a price tag. As for some of them, the government does not need such a huge loss of life to do some of these and your government will always be criticised regardless of who is in power.

[speedracer]

Originally posted by Danospano
Ho--hum. Kingpin and I are simply speculating. Stop calling us It created more jobs in the defense department, stimulated the economy by a greater production of military weapons,

Hogwash. As was mentioned before, the overall effect on the nation's economy was to plunge it even further into recession.

[pax]

Stop calling us crazy, because we're "thinking" outside the box.

I wasn't aware that anyone had called you crazy.

The government benefited greatly from the attacks. As Kingpin pointed out the Executive Branch was basically given a free ride with any legislation they want to pass before Congress. This is scary, and usually impossible, but terror made it possible.

Well, yeah, okay. But some of these new laws and policies have already been challenged as unconstitutional; indeed, many were decried before they even went into effect. There are a lot of watchdogs on these things precisely because it is such a dangerous time. I take very seriously attempts to infringe upon the freedom of innocent people, but I think in the end things will even out.

...for the good of the country. It created more jobs in the defense department, stimulated the economy by a greater production of military weapons, took an angry, evergrowing consenous to the sidelines, and gave the government more power than they ever wished to possess.

Stimulated the economy? Whose economy? Last time I checked, the stock market was plunging, the 401(k)s of everyone I know are hemorrhaging, and unemployment in my area is something like 6%. Sounds like a stimulated economy to me.

When has the U.S. government put the needs of the working-class, few

I'm not even sure what you mean by this, but are you meaning to say that the working class are "few"? Come now, the working and middle class far outnumber the wealthy, quite obviously--and due to sheer numbers I bet they vote more too.

It's pretty well known that I'm a fairly liberal person, but this is too way-left fringe even for me. You could say that I just don't *want* to believe my government could have been responsible for 9/11, and I suppose you'd be right there. But think of how hard this would have been to pull off--and figure that the U.S. government would probably implode if the plot were ever discovered.

Look at this, too--our country doesn't exactly seem to be great at keeping secrets. Roswell, Project Blue Book, Watergate...you know the truth about this will come eventually in the extremely unlikely event that this was a government plot. And that, quite literally, would be the end of American civilization as we know it. Kind of a high price to pay for what would be, in the long term, short-term political gain.

[Basstrap]

I agree.
people put to much blind faith in governments

after doing a political science course this semester my eyes are vastly opened

I'm not commenting on anything in particular in this thread, I'm just saying that governments, as a rule, are corrupt to some degree. un-corrupt governments are the exception NOT the rule.

I would not rule out that they knew abot the attack before hand.

I will not believe that until there is strong evidence BUT I will not rule it out as so many of you do.
Believe me, history repeats itself and there have been countless sinister acts carried out by governments.

It is also the exception NOT the rule that governments actually care more about the average citizen than about power and wealth.
My american poli sci professor actually hinted that the americans had much to gain from this in that it gave them a warrant to attack afghaniston and free up MILES of oil lines.

anyway...whether the US government is the exception or the rule is all our own opinions.
20 years down the road perhaps it will all be cleared up. perhaps not

[Like someone to blame]

Originally posted by kobayashi
does anyone have any thoughts on the about-face bush appears to perform regarding economic policy as laid out in the article?

Yes...after I politely remind everyone that it just came to light a few months ago that President Kennedy's Joint Chiefs Chairman, along with several of Kennedy's top advisors and military advisors at the time actually had a detailed plan in place to "stage" an attack on America during the Cuban Missille Crisis in an effort to sell an all out invasion of Cuba by America to the American public. The plan called for a real missile attack on the east coast of the U.S., killing real people, etc etc. Thankfully, the plan was never approved by Kennedy...but it's scary that officials in high, powerful places have such disregard for human lives...especially THEIR OWN CITIZENS...in their mantra of "the ends justifying the means." Just something to think about for those who quickly dismiss government knowledge/involvement of 9/11 as extremist and preposterous.

Now, about the ORIGINAL intent of this thread, regarding Bush's about face on the economy as outlined in the article provided by kobayashi. Clearly, this is the most elusive and covert administration this country has witnessed. Orwellian is a great analogy for this administration...they want Big Brother involved in the daily lives of all Americans...suppressing our civil liberties, controlling the media, repudiating and threatening anyone who dares to disagree with them, and yes, rewriting history. Therefore, it is no big surprise to me that Bush wants to have his cake and eat it too on the economy. The fact of the matter is that Bush's economic policies have led America from surpluses to deficits and his "trifecta" remark is true compassionate conservatism in action. The tax cut he advocated and his conservative cronies in Congress rammed through is a train wreck that will only get worse as more of the cuts are implemented. Folks, the facts are that Reagan era trickle down economics don't work...except to make the rich richer, the middle class and poor poorer and budget deficits the norm rather than the exception.

W hit the "trifecta" all right...and we are all the worse off for it.

[speedracer]

Originally posted by Like someone to blame


Just something to think about for those who quickly dismiss government knowledge/involvement of 9/11 as extremist and preposterous.

The reason I dismiss it out of hand is because two of the planes were headed for Washington. It wasn't just the World Trade Center that was hit. And nobody noticed government officials evacuating their offices in advance of the attacks, did they?

they want Big Brother involved in the daily lives of all Americans...suppressing our civil liberties, controlling the media, repudiating and threatening anyone who dares to disagree with them, and yes, rewriting history.

I'm curious to know what civil liberties of yours have been suppressed over the last year.