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Old 02-18-2005, 02:23 PM   #21
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actually, the other night i had a very vivid dream where i was eating at a steakhouse in DC with one of my best friends, and Britney was our waitress.

we both commented on how her career has really taken a noisedive, but she was very sweet and nice and peppered her sentences with "y'all."

then she fucked up my order. brought me chicken when i asked for steak. i wanted to ignore it, since Brit was so sweet and all, but my best friend insisted that we correct it. she called Brit over to the table, and insisted that my order was wrong. the smile fell from poor Brit's face and she insisted that i ordered chicken. my friend demanded to see the pad of paper upon which waiters writer their orders. Brit refused. she then stood up, and slapped Brit across the kisser. Brit responded with a swift kick to her knee. a girlfight ensued.

then i woke up.
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Old 02-18-2005, 02:30 PM   #22
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Where is there proof that the present system works?

""it is not a school's role to explicitly forbid sex.""

You can't teach a kid right from wrong in a public school? Unless you don't think teenage sex is wrong. Can someone please make a case that teenage sex is good? Children need to be told right from wrong. We don't all agree on what's right and wrong, but the vast majority of Americans would agree teen sex is wrong and not desirable for a healthy society. When they're 18 they can do whatever the hell they want.

""""you sound like a George Bush "conservative" -- there are no morals the government can't instill, no religiously oriented program the government can't fund."""""

Did I mention religion anywhere? This is a typical attack. Typecast someone as religious, then attack them while ignoring the argument.

""""Sounds like that's working really well.""""

We're dealing with sex. Nothing works very well. And single case studies are not proof of anything.

""""""i have never had sex without a condom. not once."""""
I hope that isn't a permanent situation, to not ever experience the real thing

""""Causing teens and preteens to feel guility and ashamed of sex is not how we should be educating our children.""""

They should feel ashamed just as the child who gets caught with their hand in the cookie jar should feel ashamed. I'm sorry if shame and guilt were manipulated incorrectly and abusively by your parents in your childhood but that's how we learned right from wrong.

I'd also like to ask a question. Apart from unwanted pregnancy or disease, what consequences, if any, do you all feel are possible harmful side effects to teenage sex?
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Old 02-18-2005, 02:36 PM   #23
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Quote:
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When they're 18 they can do whatever the hell they want.

Here's where your logic fails. So once they turn 18 are they automatically going to become educated on safe sex? Come on and listen to yourself.
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Old 02-18-2005, 02:39 PM   #24
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We can talk in theory, but the results are in: abstinence-only programs do not work.

I certainly support an open-minded program that talks about abstinence and birth control. Hell...I went to a Catholic HS, and, for those who don't know, contraception is bad. Still, health class brought up contraception, with the usual Catholic disclaimer that it isn't what they believe, but overall knowledge is good.

Ignorance is not bliss.

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Old 02-18-2005, 02:39 PM   #25
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Here's where your logic fails. So once they turn 18 are they automatically going to become educated on safe sex? Come on and listen to yourself.
When they're 18 they don't have to listen anymore
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Old 02-18-2005, 02:44 PM   #26
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When they're 18 they don't have to listen anymore
So then we have a society of 18 year olds having sex spreading disease and getting pregnant because no one ever taught them the basic principles of safe sex.

That's ridiculously stupid.
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Old 02-18-2005, 02:45 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by drhark
Where is there proof that the present system works?

""it is not a school's role to explicitly forbid sex.""

You can't teach a kid right from wrong in a public school? Unless you don't think teenage sex is wrong. Can someone please make a case that teenage sex is good? Children need to be told right from wrong. We don't all agree on what's right and wrong, but the vast majority of Americans would agree teen sex is wrong and not desirable for a healthy society. When they're 18 they can do whatever the hell they want.

""""you sound like a George Bush "conservative" -- there are no morals the government can't instill, no religiously oriented program the government can't fund."""""

Did I mention religion anywhere? This is a typical attack. Typecast someone as religious, then attack them while ignoring the argument.

""""Sounds like that's working really well.""""

We're dealing with sex. Nothing works very well. And single case studies are not proof of anything.

""""""i have never had sex without a condom. not once."""""
I hope that isn't a permanent situation, to not ever experience the real thing

""""Causing teens and preteens to feel guility and ashamed of sex is not how we should be educating our children.""""

They should feel ashamed just as the child who gets caught with their hand in the cookie jar should feel ashamed. I'm sorry if shame and guilt were manipulated incorrectly and abusively by your parents in your childhood but that's how we learned right from wrong.

I'd also like to ask a question. Apart from unwanted pregnancy or disease, what consequences, if any, do you all feel are possible harmful side effects to teenage sex?

1. no. schools do not teach "moral values" or whatever you want to call them. parents, families, youth groups, they all do that. schools instill knowledge. and it is *especially* when it comes to sex education that information, including the fact that abstience is the only 100% way to prevent pregnancy and STDs, is what the focus of the class should be.

besides, what better way to get kids to have sex than for the school and those oh-so-cool teaches to "forbid" it?

2. i didn't say you were religious, i was drawing an analogy to how bush views government -- as a tool to be weilded to encourage people to adhere to his very strict set of moral values. this is a man who has never vetoed a spending bill. please read more closely. i addressed the argument directly as well.

3. utterly meaningless sentence.

4. until i have a partner whom i can trust and we are totally mongamous and tested and STD free, the condom stays on.

5. guilt and shame are far, far worse than information and education. i want kids to make smart choices, and when presented with the information, it's pretty damn clear that having sex while in high school is a pretty bad decision. you don't need guilt and shame to get kids to abstain; there are perfectly good reasons to abstain, and you're far more likely to get teenagers to listen and understand when you speak to them like adults rather than 6 year olds trying to break into the cookie jar. guilt and shame had nothing to do with my not having sex in high school. i was always against it, for a variety of reasons (not least of which was being gay), but i remember discouraging my friends from having sex not because i thought it was a shameful activity, but because my argument was: you have the rest of your life to have sex, what's the big rush?

6. i don't think teenagers need to comlicate their lives. to me, this is the most compelling reason not to have sex. enjoy being young. enjoy pre-sexual innocence. sex is wonderful; adult relationships are wonderful. they are also complex and contain enormous potential to wreak psychological havoc on your still developing psyche. relax, have fun, be a kid, focus on school and sports and your musical instrument ... you'll be having sex (hopefully) for the rest of your life, but you won't be 16 for much longer. relish this experience now, and relish sex when you're at a more appropriate age.

the longer you wait, the better it will be.
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Old 02-18-2005, 02:50 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by drhark

""""""i have never had sex without a condom. not once."""""
I hope that isn't a permanent situation, to not ever experience the real thing

therein lies a huge part of the problem--all the men who don't want to wear condoms. a condom should not interfere with the intimacy of sex unless you let it. if anything, it should be a sign of respect and responsibility.
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Old 02-18-2005, 02:50 PM   #29
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On a difficult sticky subject like sex education, I fully expect the government to fuck it up.
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Old 02-18-2005, 02:52 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


So then we have a society of 18 year olds having sex spreading disease and getting pregnant because no one ever taught them the basic principles of safe sex.

That's ridiculously stupid.
Are 18 year olds brainless jelly fish without Big Brother telling them what to do?
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Old 02-18-2005, 03:11 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by drhark


Are 18 year olds brainless jelly fish without Big Brother telling them what to do?
At age 18 would you know long division if you weren't taught it in school, would you know how to read, would you know U.S. History, would you know how to check yourself for cancer, or even know how to drive?

No. And why? Because we need education.

You don't automatically turn 18 and everything you need to know about sex pops into your head.

I wasn't awared education was Big Brother.
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Old 02-18-2005, 03:15 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by drhark


Are 18 year olds brainless jelly fish without Big Brother telling them what to do?
Only if they don't have a proper education.
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Old 02-18-2005, 03:19 PM   #33
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Only if they don't have a proper education.
So we've come full circle and the next question would be what is a proper education and who decides this.

Sigh...........
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Old 02-18-2005, 03:32 PM   #34
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Proper education is one that prepares them for their future and for life.

And part of life is sex. Be it in high school, at age 18, or when they get married.

But even married couples who have waited still need to know about "safe sex" for not all couples want kids the first year of marriage.
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Old 02-18-2005, 03:33 PM   #35
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Sigh...........
So dramatic.
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Old 02-18-2005, 04:18 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by drhark
Where is there proof that the present system works?

""it is not a school's role to explicitly forbid sex.""

You can't teach a kid right from wrong in a public school? Unless you don't think teenage sex is wrong. Can someone please make a case that teenage sex is good? Children need to be told right from wrong. We don't all agree on what's right and wrong, but the vast majority of Americans would agree teen sex is wrong and not desirable for a healthy society. When they're 18 they can do whatever the hell they want.

""""you sound like a George Bush "conservative" -- there are no morals the government can't instill, no religiously oriented program the government can't fund."""""

Did I mention religion anywhere? This is a typical attack. Typecast someone as religious, then attack them while ignoring the argument.

""""Sounds like that's working really well.""""

We're dealing with sex. Nothing works very well. And single case studies are not proof of anything.

""""""i have never had sex without a condom. not once."""""
I hope that isn't a permanent situation, to not ever experience the real thing

""""Causing teens and preteens to feel guility and ashamed of sex is not how we should be educating our children.""""

They should feel ashamed just as the child who gets caught with their hand in the cookie jar should feel ashamed. I'm sorry if shame and guilt were manipulated incorrectly and abusively by your parents in your childhood but that's how we learned right from wrong.

I'd also like to ask a question. Apart from unwanted pregnancy or disease, what consequences, if any, do you all feel are possible harmful side effects to teenage sex?
My parents were open about sex education and never made me feel ashamed for wanting to know about sex. Also, they never used guilt as a means to teach right from wrong. Alas! I never got pregnet as a teen and nor did I get VD.
Also, It does not appear anyone here seems to be stating they agree with teen sex. We just feel they need to be educated about sex.
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Old 02-19-2005, 06:21 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by drhark
Where is there proof that the present system works?

""it is not a school's role to explicitly forbid sex.""

You can't teach a kid right from wrong in a public school? Unless you don't think teenage sex is wrong. Can someone please make a case that teenage sex is good?

come to think about it, this is a perfect example of wishful Conservative thinking. you asked for someone to present an argument which no one -- except for perhaps a realy horny teenager -- would argue for. it's as if you need to think that liberals want a world filled with non-stop, consequence-free, underage, non-parental consented fucking. sorry. no liberal thinks that. in fact, both liberals and conservative want the same thing: happy, healthy teenagers who aren't parents and are STD-free. the difference is in how one goes about achieving this. you'd like to use guilt and shame and "no means no" and "don't have sex because it is wrong." whereas a liberal would rather use statistics, information, and reason. this seems to me indicative of a different world view between liberals and conservatives, one that has actually been written about. conservatives see black and white; liberals see grey. conservatives have no problem aligning themselves in response to what is agreed upon to be a certain, inflexible standard that creates reality. liberals tend to question everything, spinning themselves into relativism and becoming obsessed with things like "process."
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