Bush commutes Libby's prison sentence

[Diemen]

Come on:

Any president would have done this if they were put in the same situation, regardless of political party affiliation.

You're right, any president would do that in the same situation, because to get to that same situation s/he would already have to be corrupt enough to knowingly allow (or in the Veep's case, order) a subordinate to commit a cowardly and traitorous act like outing a CIA agent for petty political reasons, and then have him mock the justice system by refusing to answer pertinent questions on the case, despite the fact that the president himself said that anyone who was involved with the leaking of Valerie Plame's name would be fired.

He sure has a funny way of holding people accountable.

As to your man Rudy, he's showing some real spine on this issue:

“After evaluating the facts, the president came to a reasonable decision and I believe the decision was correct.” — former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani.

Because obviously, when a sentence is excessive, the correct thing to do is eliminate the sentence altogether, rather than reduce it.

 

[struckpx]

You're right, any president would do that in the same situation, because to get to that same situation s/he would already have to be corrupt enough to knowingly allow (or in the Veep's case, order) a subordinate to commit a cowardly and traitorous act like outing a CIA agent for petty political reasons, and then have him mock the justice system by refusing to answer pertinent questions on the case, despite the fact that the president himself said that anyone who was involved with the leaking of Valerie Plame's name would be held accountable.

He sure has a funny way of holding people accountable.

I actually believe that Bush was left out on a lot of this.

 

[Diemen]

Which actually makes it worse then, because at some point he had to realize that things were going on behind his back, and yet he doesn't have the spine to take a moral stand and hold those people accountable.

 

[struckpx]

Which actually makes it worse then, because at some point he had to realize that things were going on behind his back, and yet he doesn't have the spine to take a moral stand and hold those people accountable.

i agree. i am somewhat of a bush and rice supporter, but i have never liked his other cabinet choosings, including cheney

 

[redhotswami]

All arguments about Clinton or immigration are 100%, completly irrelevant.

Some people have forgotten the issue. Allow me to sum up:

The issue is whether President Bush is covering up anything by COMMUTING Scooter Libby. This means Libby does not have to serve the 2.5 year prison sentence which the judge gave him, which is in the law for perjury. Prison terms are required for perjury. Also, he retains his fifth amendment rights, unlike if he was pardoned. There is much suspicion of him covering the tracks of VP Cheney.

Discuss that.

thank you.
it is refreshing to know that at least somebody is reading my posts.

 

[struckpx]

well, re-reading your comment there unico, he retains his rights, but he also has to pay punishment for much of the crimes. so, its a 50-50, he is not getting off the hook, and he is not going to jail. so it works out to be partisan. conservatives saw a man who had served for 30+ years in government and our country w/ dignity, liberals saw someone who broke the law and deserved no mercy, regardless of his deeds to society.

so, in the end it saves taxpayer money, and keeps the country overall calm. its kind of being way overblown. there are other people in the case who should be investigated, not libby. he is the middle man. he is the kid at school selling the dime sack instead of the dealer. get what i am saying?

 

[anitram]

so, in the end it saves taxpayer money,

Let's dispense with prison terms for all perjurers then.

 

[Diemen]

Exactly, but by commuting his sentence, Bush has ensured that Libby cannot provide any evidence about those people further up the line, and in that sense it is a very big deal.

 

[struckpx]

Let's dispense with prison terms for all perjurers then.

there's a difference between someone who knows US intelligence, and one of us. it could ultimately come back to harm us if we treat him badly.

regarding the other post, that is not necessarily true. bush can always authorize an internal review on cheney. while he is unlikely to do this, i really do believe that bush has been left out of a lot of this garbage, instead rumsfeld, powell, and cheney were the main ones involved.

w/ his current trend of going against his party, it might very well happen. plus, condoleeza rice is not a fan of cheney as well.

 

[redhotswami]

well, re-reading your comment there unico, he retains his rights, but he also has to pay punishment for much of the crimes. so, its a 50-50, he is not getting off the hook, and he is not going to jail.

You honestly believe he is going to pay that $250,000 fine? Fred Thompson and Mary Matalin are included in Libby's defense fund. They are raising the money for this fine. Trust me, Libby himself will NOT be paying that money.

And even given what you're writing, I honestly don't understand your connection to make this a partisan issue. It is not partisan, it is corruption. Libby is lying to cover up Cheney's dirty hands, and Bush is making sure that it stays that way by keeping him out of jail and without a pardon.

I think by reducing this to a partisan issue you are:
1) generalizing people and
B) ignoring the bigger, and scarier picture here.

our administration has dirty hands. and right now it is so transparent. i'm still surprised by the people that can't see that. it is NOTHING to do with party affiliation. this is about a corrupt administration that is getting away with doing whatever they please and doing things contrary to international and domestic law.

 

[phillyfan26]

Come on:

Any president would have done this if they were put in the same situation, regardless of political party affiliation.

It is still on appeal, therefore we can not debate the finality of his tenure in jail.

1. Diemen covered it already, but you have to be very corrupt, very out of the loop, or very stupid to get into this situation.

2. I never brought up political party affiliation in my post. The issue has only been brought up by those attempting to bring Clinton into the argument.

 

[struckpx]

You honestly believe he is going to pay that $250,000 fine? Fred Thompson and Mary Matalin are included in Libby's defense fund. They are raising the money for this fine. Trust me, Libby himself will NOT be paying that money.

And even given what you're writing, I honestly don't understand your connection to make this a partisan issue. It is not partisan, it is corruption. Libby is lying to cover up Cheney's dirty hands, and Bush is making sure that it stays that way by keeping him out of jail and without a pardon.

I think by reducing this to a partisan issue you are:
1) generalizing people and
B) ignoring the bigger, and scarier picture here.

our administration has dirty hands. and right now it is so transparent. i'm still surprised by the people that can't see that. it is NOTHING to do with party affiliation. this is about a corrupt administration that is getting away with doing whatever they please and doing things contrary to international and domestic law.

well, that is besides the point. i don't care who pays it, he is still being sentenced to pay a fine, is he not? that is punishment. in the real world, if anyone could get money to pay fines, we would do the same.

 

[redhotswami]

well, that is besides the point. i don't care who pays it, he is still being sentenced to pay a fine, is he not? that is punishment. in the real world, if anyone could get money to pay fines, we would do the same.

it is not beside the point. it is a BIG point. didn't you just say he has to pay punishment for his crimes? he isn't going to pay a cent! that is a mere microcosm of all the corruption and most importantly cover upsurrounding this.

 

[phillyfan26]

well, re-reading your comment there unico, he retains his rights, but he also has to pay punishment for much of the crimes. so, its a 50-50, he is not getting off the hook, and he is not going to jail. so it works out to be partisan. conservatives saw a man who had served for 30+ years in government and our country w/ dignity, liberals saw someone who broke the law and deserved no mercy, regardless of his deeds to society.

so, in the end it saves taxpayer money, and keeps the country overall calm. its kind of being way overblown. there are other people in the case who should be investigated, not libby. he is the middle man. he is the kid at school selling the dime sack instead of the dealer. get what i am saying?

It has nothing to do with liberal vs. conservative. I don't know why this seems to be an issue with you.

The bottom line is this: in any perjury case, prison terms are mandatory. He is getting off the hook because he is not serving mandatory sentencing for his crime. Why is that? Because the president is giving him a free pass out.

And to say it saves taxpayers money is ridiculous, because it opens the gate for anyone to be let off the hook "to save taxpayers money."

And do you know why no one else can be investigated in this case? Because Libby was commuted by the President and doesn't have to speak! If this was a pardon, then he must talk and we get to investigate them. That's why this is a big deal. It's not as much about Libby, it's that it's a clear cover up, and Bush lets Libby off because it's not his fault. He took orders.

 

[struckpx]

It has nothing to do with liberal vs. conservative. I don't know why this seems to be an issue with you.

The bottom line is this: in any perjury case, prison terms are mandatory. He is getting off the hook because he is not serving mandatory sentencing for his crime. Why is that? Because the president is giving him a free pass out.

And to say it saves taxpayers money is ridiculous, because it opens the gate for anyone to be let off the hook "to save taxpayers money."

And do you know why no one else can be investigated in this case? Because Libby was commuted by the President and doesn't have to speak! If this was a pardon, then he must talk and we get to investigate them. That's why this is a big deal. It's not as much about Libby, it's that it's a clear cover up, and Bush lets Libby off because it's not his fault. He took orders.

political prejudice has everything to do w/ it.

 

[phillyfan26]

political prejudice has everything to do w/ it.

Did you even read the rest of my post?

 

[redhotswami]

political prejudice has everything to do w/ it.

are you not at all acknowledging the corruption? the COVER UP?

 

[struckpx]

Did you even read the rest of my post?

yes, that is Washington. Everything is hardball politically motivated. All of your statements are correct, but so are the other facts: he served the country for 30+ years, was the middle man, was denied the right to submit evidence by the prosecutor, etc. etc.

the list and accusations can go on and on. ultimately, he would not have gone to jail either way. this case would have gone to the supreme court where it would have been overturned, and that is just a waste of our money. we have larger issues at hand to worry about.

he lied, we all do. don't you ever lie for your good friends? while he is in the white house and that is wrong, another former president did the exact same thing.

everything is politically motivated. all of this media coverage is politically motivated.

 

[anitram]

the list and accusations can go on and on. ultimately, he would not have gone to jail either way. this case would have gone to the supreme court where it would have been overturned, and that is just a waste of our money. we have larger issues at hand to worry about.

What are you talking about? I don't mean to be rude, but this is just hogwash. On what legal grounds was the SCOTUS going to overrule the trial judge? Every legal analyst and expert I heard speak about this agreed that he had no viable appeal. Where are you getting this idea that it would have been overturned? I honestly want to know, because I think it's a ridiculous assertion based on the case.

Bush knew it wasn't going to be overturned on appeal and acted before Libby was sent to jail to wait it out.

 

[phillyfan26]

yes, that is Washington. Everything is hardball politically motivated. All of your statements are correct, but so are the other facts: he served the country for 30+ years, was the middle man, was denied the right to submit evidence by the prosecutor, etc. etc.

the list and accusations can go on and on. ultimately, he would not have gone to jail either way. this case would have gone to the supreme court where it would have been overturned, and that is just a waste of our money. we have larger issues at hand to worry about.

he lied, we all do. don't you ever lie for your good friends? while he is in the white house and that is wrong, another former president did the exact same thing.

everything is politically motivated. all of this media coverage is politically motivated.

Lying for my friends and PERJURY are two very, very different things. To compare the two is bullshit. Being under oath is not equivalent to high school secret keeping.

His appeal had been turned down you know. Bush commuted him within hours of his appeal being turned down.

The bottom line is that this had nothing to do with republican vs. democrat. This is a cover-up. That is why people are angry. It's not anger of partisan issues. It's anger over a corrupt administration.

 

[struckpx]

what's done is done.

let's move on to something more meaningful.

who wants to start a new thread for:

Palestinian Liberation?

 

[redhotswami]

yes, that is Washington. Everything is hardball politically motivated. All of your statements are correct, but so are the other facts: he served the country for 30+ years, was the middle man, was denied the right to submit evidence by the prosecutor, etc. etc.

the list and accusations can go on and on. ultimately, he would not have gone to jail either way. this case would have gone to the supreme court where it would have been overturned, and that is just a waste of our money. we have larger issues at hand to worry about.

he lied, we all do. don't you ever lie for your good friends? while he is in the white house and that is wrong, another former president did the exact same thing.

everything is politically motivated. all of this media coverage is politically motivated.

uh, we do have something called the LAW, which this administration considers themselves to be above. that ain't bipartisan politics, that is CORRUPTION. how would it have gone to the supreme court? the commute came just after the court of appeals rejected his appeal to avoid jail time while he was appealing his conviction.

and this is bigger than just lying. he was charged with OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE.

i mean this with all due respect, but i think there are elements of this case that you are overlooking, or are misinformed about, and you do so consciously by confining it to a "partisan" issue.

you should know that some republicans wanted bush to fully pardon Libby, because they too are blinded by the corruption and not realize that the pardon would mean Libby would have to spill the beans.

this is a cover up. i can't say that enough. i don't understand why you don't acknowledge that.

 

[phillyfan26]

what's done is done.

let's move on to something more meaningful.

who wants to start a new thread for:

Palestinian Liberation?

Uh, this thread is for discussin this issue, so I imagine that we're not suddenly going to move on.

Although I am amused that you have completely stopped debating in the middle of a debate. That may be unprecedented for FYM.

 

[redhotswami]

what's done is done.

let's move on to something more meaningful.

who wants to start a new thread for:

Palestinian Liberation?

so not only do you not acknowledge corruption, but you also don't believe in accountablity either? how can there ever be any progress if we don't hold the responsible people accountable?

 

[struckpx]

so not only do you not acknowledge corruption, but you also don't believe in accountablity either? how can there ever be any progress if we don't hold the responsible people accountable?

b/c what is us complaining on a U2 forum going to do? there are bigger problems in the world than figuring out whether or not scooter libby sits in jail for a year. there are murderers, stalkers, rapers, out there currently who should be garnering this type of attention to be captured, not scooter. there are wars going on, people trying to blow up buildings w/ cars, etc. etc. lets put our thoughts and actions towards those, instead of one guy who really didn't and most likely won't have any detrimental damage to us individually

 

[phillyfan26]

b/c what is us complaining on a U2 forum going to do? there are bigger problems in the world than figuring out whether or not scooter libby sits in jail for a year. there are murderers, stalkers, rapers, out there currently who should be garnering this type of attention to be captured, not scooter. there are wars going on, people trying to blow up buildings w/ cars, etc. etc. lets put our thoughts and actions towards those, instead of one guy who really didn't and most likely won't have any detrimental damage to us individually

But this isn't one guy! It's an entire government!

 

[struckpx]

But this isn't one guy! It's an entire government!

who ultimately will be clean as a whistle now.

 

[redhotswami]

then why are you here? do you understand that the purpose of Free Your Mind is to discuss issues?

i like how you turn your head and change the topic instead of addressing my questions. thanks.

and i'm glad your using your thoughts and actions toward these greater causes by having an internet radio show. you're bringing true progress to the world as we fluff around on this forum about this inconsequential topic.

 

[phillyfan26]

who ultimately will be clean as a whistle now.

?

I don't understand what you mean.

 

[BVS]

what's done is done.

let's move on to something more meaningful.

What if people had this attitude towards your callousedheart thread?

Just said, oh well, what's done is done, that's your life, no reason to change...