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Old 04-27-2002, 05:03 PM   #61
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Just to add to my last post, I think it sounded as though I was underestimating how serious the increasing power of the far-right in Europe is, or implying that people in Europe aren't racist. I wasn't trying to do that, I believe both the rise of far-right parties and any forms of racism are huge problems and I'm actively involved in campaigning against them. But, equally I wanted to reject the suggestion that the reaction of some European countries to Israel's actions implies that Europe as a continent is anti-Semitic and show that comments such as those made by Le Pen are the views of a minority and are in no way representative of the majority of citizens across Europe.
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Old 04-27-2002, 06:02 PM   #62
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Originally posted by STING2:
Its not a source to a fact, because what is alleged to have happened in Jenin has not been established as fact.
I can't disagree that things haven't been proved (yet)
but what kind of prove do you want?
as far as I can tell the facts point more towards knowingly killing innocent civilians than accident killings

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Old 04-27-2002, 06:04 PM   #63
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You are correct in stating that the United States was a racist country for a very long time. The fact is that the majority of the people in the country for the first half of the 20th century most likely were racist to a certain degree. In the Confederate States this was even worse. But that has nothing directly to do with the Jewish situation in Europe and Israel.

The governments and perhaps most people say they are against Israel and not the Jews. But why don't you see Protest in Europe against Palestinian suicide bombers that clearly target and kill innocent civilians. People rally around the Palestinians who promote and support these terrorist attacks. Israel tries to defend itself from these attacks and gets accused of war crimes.

This is totally unfair and biased of Europeans. Where is the objectivity in this. Europeans say war crimes have occured at Jenin, but no one has established that is fact. Instead of waiting for facts, Israel is guilty, period. Why?

If I was advising Sharon in his security circle, and we had credible information on terrorist in the Jenin camp, I certainly would have voted to have the terrorist arrested or killed. There were hundreds of these terrorist in Jenin, and most of the suicide bombers had come from there. Knowing that the Terrorist would resist with everything they had, I would have sent in Tanks, Self Propelled Artillery, Armored Personal Carriers, and Helicopter gunships, and if need be fixed wing aircraft with very large bombs if the resistance was that strong. The terror cell in Jenin is responsible for war crimes and was preparing to kill more Israely citizens and had to be eliminated as quickly as possible.

Bottom line is that Israel has the right to defend itself and sending the military into the West Bank was neccessary and perhaps long overdue. There is no place for terrorist anywhere. There is no political explanation that can justify terrorism and those that conspire to commit terrorism have to be stopped before they do so. It is laughable that people suggest that Israel sit back and do nothing and let these terror cells commit their evil acts. Occupation or no Occupation does not give Palestinians the right to target innocent Israely's who may in fact be Arab, in Cafe's Disco's, and anywhere else.

In the prosecution of these military actions in defense of Israely citizens, accidents and the loss of innocent lives is unavoidable due to the terrorist location and their choice to resist from this location. Many of the terrorist finally gave up because they were out of ammunition and then were taken in to custody. If they had simply surrendered in the begining, much damage to the area and loss of life could have been avoided.

To sum up the Israely military incursion of the West Bank was clearly justified to destroy terrorist cells and protect Israely citizens. None of the alleged war crimes that the Palestinians accuse Israel of have been proven. War and battlefields are terrible places, but that does not in of itself prove that a War Crime was committed. One will have to wait until an investigation is done by Military and terror experts and scientist looking at remains to determine if any War Crime occured.

Europe should, as well as others be concerned about the violence in the west bank, but they should be OUTRAGED at the terrorism committed by Palestinians targeting Israely citizens that has killed hundreds. Targeting innocent civilians is what happened in those terror attacks and that is UNDISPUTED. Europe should also be supportive of Israels right to defend itself from terrorism. If compelling evidence is produced against the IDF of war crimes then that changes the situation, but thus far there is no evidence that proves what Palestinians allege to have happened.
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Old 04-27-2002, 06:28 PM   #64
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Salome,
Battlefields are often chaotic places. If you were a soldier recieving machine gun and gernade fire from a house, your going to direct fire back at that location before YOU and everyone around get killed by Palestinian gunmen.

I have not seen anything that cannot be explained by the simple chaos of combat. There are probably a large number of palestinians who were shot accidently by Palestinian terrorist. The terrorist had many of the houses boobytrapped with bombs to blow up. 13 Israely soldiers died in such an inccident along with who ever else was in the house. I'm sure there were also cases where Palestinians in panic may have run towards Israely soldiers and not stopped. The soldiers fearing they were suicide bombers most likely shot them dead. That is sad and unfortunate but not a war crime.

Now if Israely soldiers captured palestinians and then shot them, that would be an indisputable war crime. For mass were crimes, you need to anylyze the bodies and look for similar injuries and causes of death. But if the remains reveal, all kinds of multiple or different types of injuries caused by different types of outside projectiles(bullets, shell fragments, housing or building material, wood, glass, etc) then that indicates colateral damage. War crimes usually have a pattern to them that is often revealed upon examination of the bodies. Another way to prove war crimes is video tape that clearly shows the alleged event happening with both attacker and victim and crime committed on video. So far everything indicates that this was an intense military struggle in the center of Jenin in which civilian losses would be impossible to avoid. Many people are horrified by the damage they see, but I guess they have never seen the damage that war can couse. The destruction you see today only shows intense battle scene, common to any city that has seen intense fighting. The horrific damage itself is not evidence of a war crime, but normal destruction as a result of intense fighting.
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Old 04-27-2002, 06:48 PM   #65
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Sting, when you state things like "Europeans say", it bothers me because: a) it's a sweeping generalization and b) I'm not sure whom you're referring to. Maybe there are pockets of anti-semitism, just like everywhere in the world. But there are a number of European countries like those in the Balkans (not just former YU, but Romania, Bulgaria) that are just trying to stay afloat with their pathetic economies. They've got no political power and influence; the common person in the area is just concerned with making enough money to feed their kids the next day. They're not sitting around, slinging insults at the world's Jewry. And it's a little insulting to insinuate a bias under the guise of "Europeans say." That's equally as accurate as those sources you claim are biased.
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Old 04-27-2002, 11:39 PM   #66
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As much as I want peace, and I do, I wonder what would happen if we just backed off totally here. We (the USA) gave Israel a lot of hardware and money, so they tend to "listen" to us, respectfully.

Our war on terror is a just cause, we should have avoided the disasters we faced in september much earlier. Israel is in this position now, I believe, to avoid bigger disasters by acting accordingly now.

Thanks Sharon, but do what you have to do.
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Old 04-28-2002, 03:34 AM   #67
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Sorry to generalize Europeans. Europes a very big place with 40 different countries. The general media report of Europeans reactions to the conflict I find disappointing. Several opinion polls from the ECONOMIST were taken in Italy, Germany, France, Spain, and the United Kingdom, in which the vast majority of those polled found Israel to be at fault rather than the Palestinians. I do not see any support for Israel from Europe and most European interferencers seem to be more critical of Israel and supportive of the Palestinians. Certainly not all Europeans are against Israel, but right now it seems like their getting slammed in Europe.
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Old 04-28-2002, 04:12 AM   #68
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STING2;

I too, am concerned with your sweeping generalisation of Europeans. Which Europeans? Which political sector of the Europeans? Europe is not so small that you can simply sweep it under one rug of a political opinion. I don't think Israel is completely responsible, I think both are in a continuous cycle of violence that is purely of their own doing.

And going back to out previous discussion about the reasons why Britain should drop out, and your adqeuate responses. I do agree with you, there are economic and political ties to consider, however, your president didn't think much of those when he increased export tarrifs on us; I'm sorry, but I equate them both - if your president can take America's interests into consideration without thinking of the economic consequences for ALL, I think Britain is not only entitled, but should disassociate itself with the potential Iraqi war, because it won't be over for a long, long time. It will be just another conflict like the Israeli/Palestinian one, and I believe Britain has to think of its own interests and just leave America to it, as easily as it has left America start a trade war on the rest of the world.

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Old 04-28-2002, 07:12 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2:
Its not a source to a fact, because what is alleged to have happened in Jenin has not been established as fact.
Then when IS something a fact? To establish something as a fact, you need different sources that confirm that fact. By dismissing every source you'll never get a fact.

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Old 04-28-2002, 07:29 AM   #70
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Originally posted by STING2:
You are correct in stating that the United States was a racist country for a very long time. The fact is that the majority of the people in the country for the first half of the 20th century most likely were racist to a certain degree. In the Confederate States this was even worse. But that has nothing directly to do with the Jewish situation in Europe and Israel.
Well, the KKK was active far into the second half of the 20th century (do they still exist today?). They not only targeted black people, but also Jewish people. There are also Arian parties in the USA. And there are many other incidents that show that the USA still isn't tolerant to other races and life-styles (Rodney King, that homosexual man that was dragged behind a car for several kilometers, etc.).

Quote:
The governments and perhaps most people say they are against Israel and not the Jews. But why don't you see Protest in Europe against Palestinian suicide bombers that clearly target and kill innocent civilians. People rally around the Palestinians who promote and support these terrorist attacks. Israel tries to defend itself from these attacks and gets accused of war crimes.
There are demonstrations against Palestinian actions in Europe, but maybe you don't see them on the news. When it isn't against US public opinion it's maybe not newsworthy in the USA. There is also big support for Israel with their actions against Palestinians here in Europe.

Quote:
This is totally unfair and biased of Europeans. Where is the objectivity in this. Europeans say war crimes have occured at Jenin, but no one has established that is fact. Instead of waiting for facts, Israel is guilty, period. Why?
Europeans suspect that war crimes have occurred and they want to investigate this. Israel is blocking the investigation, so it becomes even more suspect of hiding any crimes that have occurred. Whatever European governments are saying, they haven't taken any (political) actions against Israel. They all want to wait until they know what went on in Jenin and the other cities.

Quote:
If I was advising Sharon in his security circle, and we had credible information on terrorist in the Jenin camp, I certainly would have voted to have the terrorist arrested or killed. There were hundreds of these terrorist in Jenin, and most of the suicide bombers had come from there.
When is information credible? As long as it isn't a fact I would be very cautious with just killing the person. That would constitute murder.
You also say that hundreds of terrorists were in Jenin. Can you prove that? As I see it that is not a fact as it was never proven.

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Old 04-28-2002, 07:30 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2:
and most European interferencers seem to be more critical of Israel and supportive of the Palestinians.
I don't think condemning Israel's actions in Jenin has anything to do with supporting either Israel or the Palestinians in general

I don't think actions taken by Israel such as in Jenin will help to achieve peace over there
I do understand Israel needs to do something against Palestinian terrorist actions
but this will just provoke more Palestinian anger and hate

reports from Jenin are too gruesome to convince me this has been a normal military action
this comes very close to being an act of terrorism in itself

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Old 04-28-2002, 08:25 AM   #72
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FROM DEBKA INTELLIGENCE FILES
Hezbollah, al-Qaida
govern Jenin camp
Israel shares intelligence documents with U.S. ahead of U.N.'s probe

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: April 27, 2002
4:30 p.m. Eastern


Editor's note: DEBKAfile's electronic news publication is a news-cum-analysis live wire, online round the clock seven days a week. A weekly edition,DEBKA-Net-Weekly, is now available through WorldNetDaily.com. Drawing on DEBKAfile's unique sources, analytical talents and forward-looking insights, it is presented as a compact, intelligence-angled weekly package. It is available as a direct e-mail feed or via the Internet.


2002 WorldNetDaily.com

Intelligence gleaned from the Jenin refugee camp suggests Israel's military operation aided the U.S. in its war on terror. The intelligence, transferred earlier in the week to Washington, consisted of materials that Israeli forces collected during their eight-day stay in Jenin. According to military sources, the materials reveal the camp as being secretly governed by Hezbollah and al-Qaida terrorists plotting attacks against American cities.

The Sharon government is handing all this intelligence data over to Washington in order to get its side of the story across before the fact-finding team appointed by U.N. secretary general Kofi Annan goes to work tomorrow. Israeli officials put little faith into the bona fides of U.N. secretary general Kofi Annan and his fact-finding team. To offset hostile findings, Israel has set up three lines of defense:

1. An information campaign shedding light on the credibility and objectivity of the U.N. panel members.

2. Handover of intelligence data gathered in the Jenin camp to Washington to ensure its proper exposure.

3. Pressure on the U.N. secretary to include intelligence and military observers qualified to evaluate intelligence evidence in his fact-finding panel.

Israel hopes the intelligence data it has handed over will be produced by the United States (or Israel) as grounds for a veto of an anti-Israel resolution at the U.N. Security Council, if such a motion is based on negative findings by the fact-finding delegation.

Military sources reveal some of the contents of these intelligence documents include evidence that the Jenin camp's bosses were engaged - not only in launching multi-casualty suicide attacks in Netanya and Tel Aviv but also secretly plotting and organizing large-scale suicide hits against American cities. Local residents with relatives in America had been approached with demands to arrange trips for terror activists to visit these relatives, flying out through Amman or Beirut. Those terrorists were given specialist training in the manufacture of explosives from chemical substances and fertilizers readily available in American shops, and equipped with fake passports and phony U.S. visas. The Israeli operation in the camp aborted this plot.

Another collection of documents passed to Washington includes photographs of a special torture room in Yasser Arafat's Jenin headquarters complex, which was located in the building opposite his office. Israeli intelligence officers who took the pictures found documents proving that the facility was used to torture Jenin families who refused to release their sons for suicide missions. These findings were handed over to Washington as proof of Arafat's involvement in recruiting "martyrs".

A third archive shows the Jenin camp as being secretly governed by Lebanese Hezbollah and al-Qaida agents who also trained the locals for terrorist operations. The file contains their real names and functions, as well as their code names. They set up a collective leadership for the Jenin camp in which all the local groups and factions were represented - after the Afghan Taliban model - in contrast to the Palestinian hierarchical establishment, topped by Arafat. Jenin's leaders dubbed the camp, known in Israel as the Suicide Capital of the West bank, the Palestinian Kandahar.

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Old 04-28-2002, 04:30 PM   #73
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Anthony,
I have been totally against President Bushes trade tarrif on Steel. I know he is doing it to protect US Steel, but its only going to cost Americans more in the long run as other countries put up counter tarrif. President Bush gets an F on this one. I can't believe he did this.

Oil is an important part of the United Kingdoms economy just like any Industrialized nation, which is why they will be with us if there is military action in Iraq. They also realize that WMD in the hands of Saddam is a recipe for disaster.
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Old 04-28-2002, 05:26 PM   #74
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Popmartian,
Here is what fact is. Israely intelligence, had information that showed that there was a large terrorist cell in Jenin. If this was not true, there would not have been a large number of resistance fighters or the intense battle that lasted much longer than expected. There would not have been houses booby trapped with bombs set to go off when Israely soldiers entered or past by. If this was not a terrorist cell, what in the hell were these Palestinians doing with so many weapons bombs, and ammo, enough to hold out for a couple of days? The level of palestinian resistance and equipment is the only proof one needs to show this was a terrorist cell. The IDF said Jenin was the hornets nest and what happened only proved it. If there had not been terrorist there, the operation would have been over in a few hours with little if any damage to the camp. Bottom line the IDF new there were terrorist there and took the appropriate actions.

Palestinian claims of war crimes are simply unproven allegations. It can't be a source to a fact because it is not yet established that war crimes in fact happened.

Eyewitness testimony although still used has been shown to be very unreliable. One Law professor to prove this to his students had a man come into each one of his classes and still a book on his desk. The students were all asked to describe the mans charteristics as best they could. There were over a hundred different discriptions as varied as, the man had blond hair, brown hair, red hair. Now put eyewitness testimony in the middle of the night in a confused war situation, with bullets going every which direction and bombs going off and houses falling down. Bottom line is you need more than eyewitness testimony to prove your case. Then there is political motivation. Your not going to say that these allegations have no political motivation in them.

One of the only ways to prove war crimes is through examination of the dead bodies to determine the cause of death. If a pattern devolops with similar injuries and sources of those injuries, then you might have a case for war crimes. But if its all types of injuries from various types of weapons or other objects then that suggest simply the chaos of an intense battlefield environment. Another way of course is by video camera. Why don't the palestinians try to smuggle in small video camera's that might be able to record these alleged events? Why do the palestinians instead spend their resources smuggling bombs to blow up teens in disco's?

Many of the simplest war crimes to prove or those that have taken place in Non-combat area's or after fighing in one area has stopped. In the heat of an intense battle, even people that might commit war crimes won't be, because one is rather preoccupied when being shot at and nearly blown up by booby traps.

When you have intense fighting in a residential area, innocent civilians are going to be killed. Can you clearly distinguish, based on what you know or believe to have happened in Jenin, an incident that could not be explained by the normal chaos of war in a residential area?
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Old 04-28-2002, 05:41 PM   #75
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Popmartian,
The USA is very tolerant of other races and people. More people want to live in the USA than any other country on the planet. Yes there are those that are still racist, but that is not government policy. We have affimative action that gives preference to people of "color". Employers have to by law hire are certain number of employs of "color". University's have to accept a certain number of applicants of "color". George Bushes closest advisor, Condelezza Rice is African American. His Secretery of State or Foreign minister as you would say in Europe, Colin Powell, is African American. How many European Foreign Ministers are Jewish? If Colin Powell wanted to be president, who would have won in landslide over Clinton. How many Jewish politicians in European countries would win in a landslide if they were trying to be elected Prime Minister? Are there any Jewish Prime Ministers in Europe?

Israel was right in blocking the UN investigation team because it had NO military experts and terrorism experts. Only qualified experts, not politicians and humanitarian officials, can determine war crimes. The initial inspection team was a joke.
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Old 04-28-2002, 05:50 PM   #76
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Quote:
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Oil is an important part of the United Kingdoms economy just like any Industrialized nation, which is why they will be with us if there is military action in Iraq.
What I find so interesting here is that you openly admit that the US would attack Iraq purely to protect it's own oil interests, and yet you would still support such an attack. I'm used to seeing justifications of attacks on other countries under the pretense of 'protecting human rights' or 'fighting the war on drugs' 'preventing the spread of communism' and so forth. It's actually quite refreshing to see someone openly admit the US is just looking after its own interests.

I guess now the US isn't even ashamed of its imperialist foreign policy.
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Old 04-28-2002, 06:10 PM   #77
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Salome,
Well if you support Israels right to defend itself against terrorism, then you should support the military action in Jenin that uprooted one of the largest terror cells on the West Bank.

In war, having entire city blocks destroyed is not unusual. What exactly is more gruesome in Jenin then any other city where intense fighting has occured? I have yet to see anything that indicates terrorism by IDF forces. It is normal for houses and other buildings to be totally destroyed in intense fighting as well as having civilians killed in the crossfire.

Palestinian hate and anger should never prevent Israel from doing what is just and destroying terrorist cells. It has been very calm on the terror front since the Israely incursion which shows that it has had a positive effect in limiting terror activities. The Palestinians need to turn their hate and anger into activities that are non-violent and are actually productive in achieving their goals. Terror attacks only succeed in bringing more IDF forces into the West Bank.
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Old 04-28-2002, 06:20 PM   #78
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Fizzing,
The US interest is in everyones interest since every Industrialized country or those that are attempting to industrialize use Oil. It is in the interest of everyone that Oil resources are protected from Saddam and others that would try to harm the global economy. The Economic fact is that the Economic situation in the USA effects nearly every country on the planet. There is no other country on the planet that buys more imported products from outside its borders than the USA. But if the average american consumer is forced to spend more money on fuel than other products, then that is going to have a negative effect on the American economy as well as other economies through out the world. The ripple effect will be felt in some way everywhere. Thats interdependence for you. My interest is your interest.
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Old 04-28-2002, 06:26 PM   #79
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Interesting article 80s!
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Old 04-28-2002, 07:03 PM   #80
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Sting2, there are a few things that I would like to get off of my mind here, and I would be interested in what you may have to say:

First off, you imply that Europeans are racist against Jews, and that any criticism of Israeli policies automatically qualifies one as being anti-semitic. I dont know how you feel justified in making such a comment! I have eagerly studied Jewish religion and culture/history this year, and I dont support Israeli actions! First off, the IDF has about $2 BILLION in funding from the US alone, each year. Do they really need that much money? $2 billion is a lot of money, and it could be put to much better use than to buy more Apache helicopters for the IDF. The Palestinians arent the ones who are trying to establish a Middle-Eastern empire, as Israel has shown by its past history not just in Palestine, but in Jordan Egypt etc. Israel has been a nation-state for only 50 years. Jews have not been a majority in the area since only recently, while the Palestinians have lived in the area for over a thousand. Israel should not have any justification for occupying such land in the first place. If they had not taken over the contended areas in '67 or if they had withdrawn soon afterwards, would they have suicide bombers killing innocent people, only in the areas that they occupied, for the most part? I do not like any violence of any type, but you have to understand that when a US-style military machine has been occupying your land and your ancestors land and is establishing illegal settlements there, what options do you have open? History has shown that Israel is not interested in ending the new settlements. Will passive acceptance from the Palestinians result in their freedom? Kalishnikov rifles are not of much use against war planes and heavily armored tanks. Although it is disgusting to run in with bombs and blow innocent people up, what else can they do? Negotiate with the people who destroy olive trees for "security" reasons for peace on their terms? Its not going to happen. Suicide bombers may target innocents, but dont you try saying that never in the history of the IDF that there has not been a single young man just recruited into the army who perhaps by chance may not like the Palestinians, and who will be totally unbiased in any way. You cannot say that because it is not true, anywhere in the world. Have you seen www.notinmyname.org? Because that clearly shows not all of the Jewish people support Israeli actions, if you will accept nothing else as a "fact".

I guess you may have forgotten that Zionists in the 1940s commited acts that may be called "terrorism" on British soldiers and civilians. This had an influence in Britain withdrawing their forces and allowed Zionists to establish their state. Isnt it funny how almost no website, tv show, or other poster "forgets" this? Im not supporting that terrorism or any other one. But you have to consider such things.

Next off, I want to address the issue of racial ideas in Europe and elsewhere. It is true that the Jewish people have suffered much in Europe. But, they are NOT the only people to have suffered and been persecuted in the history of mankind. I myself am Polish, living in Canada. I am not Jewish, and I have dealt with a fair share of racism in my life. Eastern European settlers in the Canadian West were often slandered and made the objects of much critism. The Jewish people were not the only people to have been murdered on-masse in WW2. What do you think Hitlers policy was to Slavic peoples in general? Not too kind, he had grand illusions of destroying us for "lebensraum" and of making us his slaves. I do not remember the exact figures, but I believe Poland lost about 1/3 of its population in the war. Hell, some of those disgusting death camps the Nazis used were built in Poland itself. And we were "rewarded" with being made a Soviet satellite state for having our country destroyed. But if Poland these days were to make foreign policy moves that I saw as wrong, I would criticize it, just as anyone else would have the right to do without being biased against. Just like the majority of Europeans react to Israel and NOT Judaism. I have several German friends, and I really like studying German culture and music, I dont hate them and neither do many Europeans, and we live right next door to them. Under Stalin, some 11 million people were killed in Ukraine. And what about the massacres in Rwanda a few years back? What I am trying to imply here is that I symphasize with the Jewish people in their massive sufferings, as should anyone, but I also want to clearly tell you that many peoples have suffered due to hate and bigotry, and that hating Israels foreign policies has nothing to do with its people or culture.

What would you, Sting2, propose to end this never-ending conflict? If you agree with Mr. Sharon in that sending in armed and ready soldiers into an area of people that are afraid to death of you, destroy their homes, and kill them, intentionally or not, that they will sit down with smiles on their faces the next day with you to set up a peace arrangement? That is the kind of logic that has killed many, on both sides, and that must stop. If 50 years of military incursions have not led to an end of the suffering, what leads you to believe that it will suddenly stop now? I would be interested in why you believe that. Also, I would like to say a bit about the relationships between Arab countries and Israel in general. Prior to this century, Jews, Arabs, and other Muslims lived in peace. Jews in the Muslim Ottoman Empire lived under much better conditions than they ever did in Europe at the same time, in Islamic Spain the same applies. Israel has itself made enemies of these people in the last century. Talking with a friend who has lived in Abu Dhabi for about 7 years, she tells me that people who even visit Israel from there are not allowed to return. This is not due to racism alone, maybe now it is, but because of the hole that Israel has dug itself in for the past 50 years.

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