Bush calls Sharon a "man of peace"

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Anthony,
The main point about mentioning the british lives that were lost on Sept 11 was to show the interconected nature of our two countries today. The USA is important to the UK for business and Economic reasons as well as political and cultural reasons. What effects the US economy will eventually effect the economy in the UK due to a high level of trade and business activity between the two countries. Oil in the middle east and there for, stability in the middle east is just as important to the UK as it is for the USA! The two countries are in bed together for many reasons, and unless you want the UK to return to the 18th century, nothing is going to change that. The UK simply does not have a seperate set of interest from the USA nor the USA from the UK on the international scene. Thats why the two countries have been together on nearly every major international issue since the start of the 20th century. British lives were lossed on 9/11 as well as American lives. An Attack on American soil is an attack on British soil.
So you say the Europeans don't care eh? Well then why did the 19 countries of NATO declare that the attacks on 9/11 were an attack on all NATO countries? Why did Germany, Spain, Italy, Belguim, and the UK arrest Al-quada leaders that were planning attacks? Why have several of the NATO nations sent troops to Afghanistan and continue to operate with the USA in many ways through out the middle east? Its because we all have a common interest in stopping terrorism and preventing instability and war that would effect our interdependent economies and way of life. Europe makes a lot of money off of Exports to the United States as well as the USA doing well with Exports to Europe. I'm sorry but there is very little that seperates Europe and the USA, were tied at the hip. That does not mean there are disagreements, but in the long run, political and economic interdependency keeps us together. People in Europe who disagree with this are in denial.
In Northern Ireland in the 1960s, there was a very high level of unemployment, often upwards of 30%, and Catholics recieved an heavy discrimination in getting the few jobs there were. The level of unemployment among Catholics was much higher than Protestants. The Economic development and improving employment situation for everyone played just as an important role if not more important than the political agreements.
This is what I was told by people in Northern Ireland and Ireland when I was there for a few weeks in January. Everyone talked of the problems in the past tense. It was my first time to Northern Ireland and I found it just as beautiful and wealthy as the rest of Ireland.
 
Originally posted by Salome:
I can't think of many moments in history where killing people led to peace


Don't you want to restate that.. or Re Word It.. I understand what you're saying, But you're negating all War in General..

I've said this before, and I've posted articles saying it in much more eloquent terms, But the point remains.. Peace won't be achieved through Negotiation.. Of course, we've figured that out by now.. Only when one Side has been eliminated, or soundly defeated that they are not able to fight the next day, will there be peace..

Here's a Nice Editorial I found.. Enjoy...

THE WAR CRIMES LIE
NYPOST

April 22, 2002 --
THE Palestinian big lie against Israel keeps shifting as the truth emerges.

The first big lie was that the Israelis had perpetrated a massacre in Jenin, killing more than 500 people and then stashing them in mass graves. Then, as aid workers and journalists uncovered no evidence of mass graves, the lie was that the Israelis had secretly transported the dead bodies in refrigerated trucks.

Now it's that the Israelis have violated international law relating to war. Ac- cording to the BBC on Thursday, "International officials say some actions by [Israel's] troops, there and elsewhere, would appear to have breached the Fourth Geneva Convention relating to the protection of civilians in war or under occupation."

Why? Well, "the convention forbids violence being used against civilians, as well as inhumane or degrading treatment . . . It is claimed that civilians died in Jenin when their houses were demolished. The convention prohibits the destruction of property except where military operations make it absolutely necessary."

Lies. Lies lies lies. Damnable, outrageous, unseemly lies.

The simple truth is this: International law relating to the conduct of the incursion exculpates the Israelis and convicts the Palestinian Authority. Period.

The Israelis went into Jenin and made a systematic search for bomb laboratories and terror cells that had been hidden among civilians. The purpose was to destroy the laboratories and take prisoner or kill those who had been building the suicide bombs and directing the suicide attacks.

The Palestinian intifada describes itself as an armed struggle, an uprising. The word that describes the leaders and planners of such an armed struggle, in legal parlance, is "combatants."

And international law could not be any more plain. On June 8, 1977, the Fourth Geneva Convention was updated. The document is called "Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts."

Article 37 outlaws the use of civilian populations as a shield for military actions. It explicitly prohibits "the feigning of civilian, noncombatant status; and the feigning of protected status by the use of signs, emblems or uniforms of the United Nations or of neutral or other States not Parties to the conflict."

What the leaders of the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Hamas and Islamic Jihad do is hide among civilian populations to make it as difficult as possible for their enemies to attack them. The Geneva Convention denounces this as "perfidy."

Peter Bouckaert, a researcher at Human Rights Watch in New York who sneaked into Jenin on Thursday, told the Washington Post, "It's been incredibly difficult to tell the difference between fighters and civilians. If a combatant uses the civilian population as a shield in this way, the deaths incurred are the moral and legal responsibility of those who are hidings out in this grotesquely cowardly fashion.

Previously, Palestinians and their apologists had claimed the Israelis were violating the Fourth Geneva Convention by refusing to allow ambulances operated by the Red Crescent Society to move freely between Israeli hospitals and the West Bank towns in which the incursions were taking place.

Article 38 specifically addresses the ambulance issue: "It is prohibited to make improper use of the distinctive emblem of the red cross, red crescent or red lion and sun." And yet this is precisely what the Palestinians have done. The Israelis have stopped and searched ambulances emblazoned with the Red Crescent and found suicide belts hidden in them. One of these incidents, on March 27, was captured on videotape.

By using this internationally accepted symbol as a diversionary tactic - in essence turning ambulances into tanks - the Palestinians thus bear the moral and legal responsibility under international law for the Israeli refusal to allow the free conduct of Red Crescent vehicles.

The violators of international law - the criminals in this war - are the Palestinians who devised these shameful tactics.


E-mail: podhoretz@nypost.com


[This message has been edited by Lemonite (edited 04-22-2002).]
 
Zoomerang96,
The USA has done far more than any other country on the planet to protect people who are unable to protect themselves. Yes the USA does act in its self interest like every other country on the planet does. But it also has many allies around the world that it protects and supplies. The USA has spent a century fighting to protect and free Europe from Totolitarian regimes and Communism. World War I, World War II, The Marshall Plan, Cold War, Bosnia, Kosovo.
There was no oil in South Korea, Vietnam and Somalia. US funding and Diplomatic efforts have helped to prevent a huge war between Greece and Turkey. But the USA alone does not have the money and power to intervene everywhere in the world where there is human rights abuses.
How about Greece? What did Greece do to help the people of Afghanistan while they were ruled by the Taliban. How about a little closer to home. What did Greece do to help Muslims in Kosovo? OR Bosnia? What did Greece do for the people in Somalia?
The USA acts in its self interest, which in fact is the interest of the entire industrialized world. Do people in Greece benefit when the price energy(oil) is cheap! You bet, everyone does. Do people in Greece benefit from Exports to the USA! They sure do.
 
One thing that I have never noticed in any of these posts about the Middle Eastern conflict, is that Zionists actively perpetuated terrorist acts in the 1940s to help them establish the State of Israel. They killed many innocent people, especially British people. Yet this is never mentioned? Why was Israeli terrorism ok, and all others bad? I may be making wrong assumptions here, but you cant ignore the facts that Israel was at least partially founded due to terrorism and acts of violence against British soldiers and civilians.
 
Lets put it in a simple equation problem:

Israel leave Palestine alone + Israel Highten security = Paletinian people free to live + No suicide bombing

You see, these suicide bombings are wrong... But when you have people living in conditions where they can't live, don't expect a good result.....
Ok, someone is going to get pissed off at me for saying this.... BUT DEAL, PALESTINE COULDN'T DEVELOP,BECAUSE OF ARAFAT AND MORE SO B/C OF SHARON'S FAT ASS AND THE IDF ON TOP OF THEM.
 
There were few Israely soldiers in the West Bank until the huge increase in suicide bombers. The Palestinian Authority was supposed to be arresting terrorist but instead was helping them. Israel had no choice but to destroy known terrorist that were planning attacks. Why would anyone deny Israels right to do this?

The only way your are going to have peace is when Palestinians recognize that the #1 obstacle to their hopes for a Palestinian state are the culture of terrorism that they preach to their childern and act out against Israel. It is pointless and useless and achieves nothing for them. Only through non-violence and attempting to gain US support will the Palestinians be able to have a state. Suicide bombings don't achieve that. They just bring more Israely troops into the west bank and increase US support for Israel. The Palestinians need to be doing things that are actually productive in achieving their goal.
 
Originally posted by Mikesimus:
One thing that I have never noticed in any of these posts about the Middle Eastern conflict, is that Zionists actively perpetuated terrorist acts in the 1940s to help them establish the State of Israel. They killed many innocent people, especially British people. Yet this is never mentioned? Why was Israeli terrorism ok, and all others bad? I may be making wrong assumptions here, but you cant ignore the facts that Israel was at least partially founded due to terrorism and acts of violence against British soldiers and civilians.

Your information is correct. It is conveniently ignored or overlooked because of bias.
Perhaps ignorance would be more charitable.
 
It is true that Jewish terrorist groups antagonized the interests of the British "empire" in the 1940s. This was because Britain had promised them as far back as 1917 an independent Jewish state; however, the international climate of World War I, World War II and the years in between encouraged the British "empire" instead to tighten its grasp, and also during that time, Palestinian sentiment built up.

Much like Sharon and his past terrorist activites, future Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin was involved in some of the terrorist activities of the 1940s.

I don't know if the lack of attention to these events is the result of bias as much as the fact that it was overshadowed by the European and Pacific theatres of World War II.

I do not consider Israeli terrorism to be "ok," but I don't have a problem with their desire to break from the British "empire."

~U2Alabama
 
The only way your are going to have peace is when Palestinians recognize that the #1 obstacle to their hopes for a Palestinian state are the culture of terrorism that they preach to their childern and act out against Israel
-----------------------------------------
Where did you get that fact from.....? Parents and family rarely preach this.... Their are organizations that support them... But like most of the suicide bombers, they were not taught by their parents to kill themselves..... How do I know this? Go read the article in the Time magazine about the young girl who killed herself in the market place.............. THESE ARE ACTS OF DESPERATION..... THEIR NOT RIGHT, BUT PEOPLE DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO DO......... THINK ABOUT IT, THEY HAVE NO REAL REPRESENTATION AND THEY LIVE IN A CONSTANT CAMP OF DESTRUCTION........
READ OR EDUCATE YOURSELF ON THE ACTIONS THAT WERE TAKEN. If terrorism should be fought, lets be fair....... There is terrorism within the IDF, and Sharon, and their is terrorism within Palestine..... Lets try and look at the whole picture.
 
Liberals?... ANY QUESTIONS?.. A Nightmare? Feel free to gag in 'Poopaganda'.. No One Will Notice..


Sharon offers plan for peace
By Ben Barber
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon proposed a three-stage peace plan for the Middle East during a televised address to about 4,000 American supporters yesterday.
During his speech to members of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, Mr. Sharon repeated a proposal he has made for a regional peace conference including the United States, Israel, the Palestinians and moderate Arab states "to bring about a cessation of hostilities."
He said Israel would present a peace plan that includes three phases:
?A complete cessation of violence.
?A long-term intermediate agreement similar to an armistice.
?A permanent agreement in which final borders would be established for Israel and the Palestinians, "ending the conflict between us and the Palestinians and the Arab countries."
Hours later, members of his administration told reporters that Israel has withdrawn its offer to cooperate with a U.N. fact-finding mission being sent to determine what happened during Israel's operation in the Jenin refugee camp earlier this month.
An official told the Associated Press that Israel believes the United Nations has violated agreements with Israel in its selection of people for the commission and in drawing up its terms of reference.
Israel said it would not admit a U.N. fact-finding mission probing its siege of the Jenin refugee camp unless the team included military as well as counterterrorism experts.
In response, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said the team might be expanded "as deemed necessary," but he expected only a short delay in the mission, which he wants in the region by Saturday.
"The secretary-general agreed to postpone the departure of the fact-finding team to allow consultation to take place, but he expects the team to be in the Middle East by this Saturday," Mr. Annan's office said in a statement
A State Department official said the United States continued to support the investigation.
In London, a British Foreign Office aide, Ben Bradshaw, condemned reports of the Israeli government's about-face, warning that Israel was doing itself "irreparable damage" in the eyes of the international community.
He told the British Broadcasting Corp. that the move "would be a very foolish thing to do, the latest in a string of cataclysmic public relations mistakes by the Israeli government."
He added: "If Israel has nothing to hide, they have absolutely no reason not to allow this team to go ahead."
In his address to the committee, Mr. Sharon also defended his 3-week-old incursion into the West Bank and rejected charges of excessive use of force by Israeli soldiers.
It was not clear whether the intermediate agreement would follow the lines of a plan disclosed by Israeli Cabinet ministers in recent days calling for up to half of the West Bank to be annexed by Israel on an "interim" basis.
But in any case, the Sharon plan diverges markedly from the U.S. and Palestinian approaches to restoring the peace process.
The U.S. plan pushed by Secretary of State Colin L. Powell on his recent trip to the Middle East calls for working on a cease-fire and the political track at the same time.
Palestinians also call for immediate moves toward solving political problems such as settlements, refugees and boundaries, and they refuse to discuss a cease-fire unless those issues also are brought forward.
The Palestinians have rejected the idea of another interim agreement, which would essentially freeze Israeli control over most of the West Bank and delay any further land transfers to the Palestinian Authority.
Palestinians say their anger, which spilled over into violence and an intifada in September 2000, came because the interim agreement set up after the Oslo peace accords of 1993 was dragged out while Israel continued to build settlements in the West Bank.
Mr. Sharon defended Israel against criticism by U.N. and human rights officials over injuries and deaths to civilians during its three-week military campaign against suicide bombers and terrorist infrastructure in the West Bank.
"In Afghanistan, the United States is fighting terrorism," he said. "Sometimes innocent civilians are caught in the cross fire. Israel is fighting terrorism on our doorstep. We have a moral right and obligation to defend ourselves."
Much of the criticism has concerned events in the refugee camp in Jenin, the scene of eight days of intense fighting between Israeli troops and Palestinian gunmen. Israeli forces say that at least some civilians were buried alive when their homes were knocked down on top of them.
A government official said later that members of a U.N. panel named to explore what happened in Jenin would not be allowed to enter Israel until differences with the world body had been worked out.
Mr. Annan had named Martti Ahtisaari, a former president of Finland, to lead the team, which also included Cornelio Sommaruga, former president of the International Committee of the Red Cross, and Sadako Ogata, the former U.N. high commissioner for refugees.
An American official told Reuters news agency that the Bush administration, which sponsored the U.N. resolution last week that authorized the investigation, continued to support the probe.
In his speech, Mr. Sharon tied America's fate to that of Israel.
"Being the only true democracy in the Middle East, Israel stands at the forefront of the conflict between the civilized world and the forces of evil," he said.
President Bush, after meeting with Moroccan King Mohammed VI at the White House yesterday, called for the Palestinians to end the violence and for Israel to pull back its troops.
 
IF the Israely Defense Force was a terrorist organization, everyone in the West Bank and Gaza would have been killed DECADES AGO! The Israely military, like any other well armed force, has the power to do that against a lightly armed civilian population of the size in the west bank and Gaza. What has happened over the past few weeks is Israely police action against Palestinian Terrorist who target innocent teens in Disco's.

The Palestinian people are far from desperate compared to nearly a Billion people who live in absolute poverty around the world in third world countries. Yet, these other people don't strap themselves with bombs and attempt to murder innocent civilians.

Ones percieved sense of desperation is no arguement or explanation for targeting innocent civilians in a disco. These childern do not wake up with bombs strapped to them. They are supported by a large network of terrorist on the west bank. They encourage and facilitate these attacks.

The Palestinians goal is for an independent state in the West Bank and Gaza.(of course for some its the destruction of Israel) Taking young impressionable youth and encouraging them or showing by example, to sacrifice themselves in killing innocent teens in a disco, perhaps listening to U2, does nothing to achieve that goal. Violence of any form is never going to achieve the Palestinian goal of an independent state. One would hope that after 35 years they would understand this.

Where is the non-violent movement in the Palestinian West Bank and Gaza? Where are the demonstrations against suicide bombings? Why are the suicidal acts of these childern celebrated and honored as martyr's? Where is the honor in targeting teens in a disco? What do the teens in the disco have to do with the bombers percieved sense of desperation? How will avoiding soldiers and police, seeking the most crowded group of civilians, and blowing yourself and them up, accomplish anything?

Again the only option for the Palestinians to achieve their goal is non-violent action. This will foster more US support and creat the conditions in which a stable and lasting peace and independence can be achieved.
 
Originally posted by U2Bama:
It is true that Jewish terrorist groups antagonized the interests of the British "empire" in the 1940s. This was because Britain had promised them as far back as 1917 an independent Jewish state; however, the international climate of World War I, World War II and the years in between encouraged the British "empire" instead to tighten its grasp, and also during that time, Palestinian sentiment built up.

Much like Sharon and his past terrorist activites, future Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin was involved in some of the terrorist activities of the 1940s.

I don't know if the lack of attention to these events is the result of bias as much as the fact that it was overshadowed by the European and Pacific theatres of World War II.

I do not consider Israeli terrorism to be "ok," but I don't have a problem with their desire to break from the British "empire."

~U2Alabama

Hmm, change a few names and place it in the current time and I think the quote above describes the current situation pretty well.

Marty



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People criticize me but I know it's not the end
I try to kick the truth, not just to make friends

Spearhead - People In Tha Middle
 
Originally posted by Lemonite:
Sharon offers plan for peace
By Ben Barber
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

[snip]

Palestinians also call for immediate moves toward solving political problems such as settlements, refugees and boundaries, and they refuse to discuss a cease-fire unless those issues also are brought forward.
The Palestinians have rejected the idea of another interim agreement, which would essentially freeze Israeli control over most of the West Bank and delay any further land transfers to the Palestinian Authority.
Palestinians say their anger, which spilled over into violence and an intifada in September 2000, came because the interim agreement set up after the Oslo peace accords of 1993 was dragged out while Israel continued to build settlements in the West Bank.

I think this is an important factor to consider when the two parties are negotiating again for peace, as it is one of the causes why it went wrong in 2000. Even though Arafat and Barak were negotiating a definite peace agreement, never did Barak lift one of the measures that restricted/humiliated the Palestinians. I don't think Barak did this with the reason to annoy the Palestinians, but not lifting the restrictions was a mistake.
I think this caused some unrest among the Palestinians (as in 'Barak is saying he wants peace, but he's still not doing anything about it'), a sentiment Sharon noticed. By not wanting peace himself (or certainly not with the terms Barak was negotiating) he provoked an outbreak of Palestinian anger by visiting the Temple Mountain (?). No doubt he wanted to have some violent reaction, which he could use for his own gain in his political campaign. But I think even Sharon was (pleasantly) surprised with the severity of the reaction and he has certainly used it to his gain as he got elected.

That is history, but it can give some advice for how to get a peace agreement. Both the majority of Israeli's as the majority of Palestinians want peace. The problem is that now nobody wants to take the first step, make the first move. And, both people have leaders who have a flashback to 1982 and are not interested in peace. But they have to start negotiating sometime. I hope the Israeli prime minister then will realise that taking some immediate measures that lift the sorrows of the Palestinians increases the chance of a successful agreement.

Marty

P.S. I have to say that this was maybe the first time I agreed with an article posted by Lemonite. Thanks for finding that article.

------------------
People criticize me but I know it's not the end
I try to kick the truth, not just to make friends

Spearhead - People In Tha Middle
 
Originally posted by Popmartijn:

P.S. I have to say that this was maybe the first time I agreed with an article posted by Lemonite. Thanks for finding that article.


I'm not writing this in any antagonistic sort of fashion, but ya don't have to stick this addendum into the post, You don't have to preface something by 'This is the First Time I agree With Lemonite', or '*SHOCK* I Actually Agree', Let's just consider it the first step into your enlightenment.. Hahaha.. But seriously, are ya'll afraid that if you agree with a strong conservative you'll end up being labeled as one?.. If you agree with my point, Then write in support of the issue.. If you disagree, then Disagree.. There's no need to try and 'Disclaim' Yourself. I'm not shitting on you, just trying to help you out.

L.Unplugged

[This message has been edited by Lemonite (edited 04-25-2002).]
 
Egypt ready to wage war on Israel ... for $US100 billion

April 25 2002
Egyptian Prime Minister Atef Ebeid said his country would go to war with Israel if Arab countries stumped up $US100 billion ($A186.32 billion) to pay for the confrontation, in an interview published yesterday.
"If you want to undertake an action and be ready to face up to challenges, you need at least $100 billion," he told the Abu Dhabi Government's Al-Ittihad newspaper when asked why Egypt had taken no measures against Israel's military offensive against the Palestinians.
"I told you we want $100 billion," he repeated in response to a question why Cairo had not expelled Israel's ambassador to Egypt.
"Let the Arab world give $100 billion from Arab funds deposited around the world. Let it say to Egypt: 'This is a budget for confrontation. This budget is at your disposal. Undertake confrontation,' " he said.
Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak accused Israel yesterday of going "beyond all limits" with its military actions in the West Bank, particularly in Bethlehem and Jenin.

Egypt became the first Arab country to make peace with Israel and signed a treaty in 1979. Protesters in Egypt have frequently called for cutting diplomatic ties with Israel and expelling the Israeli ambassador.
AFP


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?Economy is the basis of society. When the economy is stable, society develops. The ideal economy combines the spiritual and the material, and the best commodities to trade in are sincerity and love.? Morihei Ueshiba
 
Posted: April 24, 2002
11:21 p.m. Eastern

By Paul Sperry

? 2002 WorldNetDaily.com
WASHINGTON -- "I'm not spreading propaganda," George Stephanopoulos' orthodox-nun sister vows, but Israeli soldiers last week "defecated" on the floors of a West Bank medical clinic they raided.
They're also looting Palestinians' homes there, claims Sister Maria Stephanopoulos, a nun at the Convent of St. Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem.
A Russian Orthodox Christian (who changed from Greek Orthodox), Stephanopoulos runs a school for Palestinian girls there, and is pleading with priests here, via e-mail, to "get on the phone and ask your congressman and senators why the United States government is backing this invasion of Israeli forces into sovereign (Palestinian) areas, (and) why so many innocent civilians are being terrorized."
Her brother, George, is the rising star and future host, reportedly, of ABC News' "This Week." The former senior adviser to President Clinton has done his own "reporting" from Jerusalem on the Israeli-Palestinian showdown.
In recent broadcasts of ABC's Sunday talk show here, Stephanopoulos expressed support for the Saudi peace initiative as "a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem."
He advised Israel to back off its "hard line" and withdraw from the West Bank, where Israel has sent tanks in response to systematic attacks from Palestinian suicide bombers in recent months.
"There's no end to the terrorism unless there's an end to the occupation," Stephanopoulos said.
More, he said PLO leader Yasser Arafat should not give up his Ramallah bunker.
"Arafat cannot make the mistake that President Bush wants him to make," Stephanopoulos intoned. "It'll look like he's surrendering."
He did not agree that Arafat, as the leader of the Palestinian terrorists, is the source of the problem.
"The problem is beyond Arafat," said Stephanopoulos, who urged Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to meet with Arafat in private to patch things up.
His sister is even more tendentious in her reporting.
Relaying what a Palestinian Orthodox couple told her over the phone last week, Stephanopoulos said, "Israeli soldiers have entered their new home in the middle of the night three times in the last month, once stealing all the money from the house, and another time strafing the house with gunfire, miraculously only slightly wounding one of their daughters."
At the couple's clinic, moreover, soldiers allegedly "defecated on the floors" and destroyed a $20,000 ultrasound machine, Stephanopoulos, 41, reported through the eyes of her Palestinian friends.
"There are reports that some newborns have died during these past two weeks in Bethlehem because they were unable to receive medical attention," she added.
As for the Palestinians who seized the Church of the Nativity, Stephanopoulos says they are not terrorists ... "for the most part."
"Only seven of the men could be considered dangerous or wanted men by Israel," she asserted.
Nearly all of Mother Maria's reporting comes from Palestinian sources. She has not herself witnessed the alleged Israeli atrocities.
"There is no way we can confirm any of that," admitted Stephanopoulos family friend Father John Reeves, referring to the alleged Palestinian home-and-clinic raids cited by Stephanopoulos in her April 15 e-mail to him. The long message was posted on the Holy Land Christian Ecumenical Foundation's website. Reeves, pastor of Holy Trinity Orthodox Church in State College, Pa., says Stephanopoulos' e-mails from the West Bank aren't always 100-percent accurate, but her "motives are pure."
"She's not trying to fan the flames," he said in a phone interview. "Mother Maria has relayed the difficulties the Palestinians have encountered under Israeli occupation."


[This message has been edited by chain (edited 04-25-2002).]
 
Sting, you keep on referring to innocent lives being taken at the discos..... Just out of curiosity, does anyone in the US know how many children have been, bombed, shot, and beaten by the IDF. Well, the answer is simple, no one can really keep track of the numbers killed. Jenin was a big thing, but stuff like Jenin happens in a less extreme way day by day in the West Bank. Its sad on how American media is censored to the extent that you don't see the other sides day to day suffering.
I'll give you one in a hundred example. The other day, the IDF threw a boxing glove at a Palestinian boy.. He started playing with it, and boom, the glove was a bomb. Stuff like this happens, hour to hour, day to day.... And we are calling the man who leads all this a "man of peace". Thats disturbing.....
I'm looking at the big pic, what suicide bombing does is create more chaos, i think it is such an evil act. But worst of all, to have a government choke the West bank's people, is an even higher crime. I think that if terrorism is to stop, Israel, should look at itself, the IDF and Sharon.
I pray for the victims of this tragic conflict.
 
You need to provide proof of these "war crimes" you speak of, and if proven, then those who committed them should be prosecuted. So far no one has established as fact that any war crimes occured at Jenin. Many people are accidently killed in war in the crossfire that happens. Palestinian terrorist decided to resist inside a heavily populated area. It is only natural to assume that many innocent people died in the crossfire. But they were never the targets!

In the suicide bombings in Israel, there is ONLY one target! Innocent people! A concerted effort is made by the suicide bomber to kill innocent people. That fact is UNDISPUTED!

Again if the IDF were terrorist, everyone in the West Bank and GAZA would have been killed decades ago.

The Terror that was committed against the USA on 9/11 is the same type of terror that is being committed against Israel. There is nothing that can defend it. The Palestinians Cheered, laughed, and celebrated in the streets upon the news that over 3,000 innocent people in my country had been murdered in less than 2 hours! That just shows you how sick some of Palestinian culture is.
 
Originally posted by STING2:
The Palestinians Cheered, laughed, and celebrated in the streets upon the news that over 3,000 innocent people in my country had been murdered in less than 2 hours! That just shows you how sick some of Palestinian culture is.

I wish I had more time to respond to the rest of this argument as I think there are some very contentious issues being debated now. I just want to say this though: the footage you saw on CNN, NBC and other news networks, supposedly of Palestinian people celebrating on September wasn't that at all. Those pictures were library pictures and had no relation to September 11th. I don't know if a genuine mistake was made, or if it was just a cynical attempt to whip up hatred against Palestinian people, but either way, it was presented completely inaccurately.

This is a link to an article you might be interested in reading. It's written by journalists who have spent time in Palestine and spoken to people who were in Jenin at the time the IDF carried out their 'intervention'. The source is The Independent - a British newspaper which isn't considered to be on the left or right.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=288592
 
50% civilians
I'm not exactly sure whether to trust this figure for 100% or not but I do think it's more likely then reports of "some accident casualties"

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Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it
 
Fizzing,
Could you please produce some type of proof that the video that clearly shows Palestinians celebrating was a fabrication. Until you do, its a clear fact that did happen and was seen worldwide. To add to that, thousands of Palestinians had pro Bin Ladin marches in the weeks after 9/11 widely seen on TV. Are going to say that did not happen either? How many American flags have been burned since 9/11?

Now to the article. First to start off, let me make clear that Eye Witness testimony by itself is NOT FACT. You have to have more evidence than that to prove a war crime.
The article talks of several people who were outside walking to or away from the seen of fighting. It then says they were shot by Israely soldiers. How or why they were shot is not explained. It is assumed to be cold bloody murder. In WAR, fighting is often confused. The people who went to help wounded Palestinians were shot probably because they were in the line of fire. The Article clearly states they were near palestinian resistence fighters. Guess what, soldiers miss! Not every shot that is fired hits its intended target. I think you know that! When fighting is done in such close proximity, people on all sides both civilian, resistance fighter, and even other Israely soldiers are bound to be hit by miss targeted fire. WAR is not neat or organized when fighting in Urban area's, often at night. If Terrorist are fighting from a house the military has every right to engage that target with everything they have in their arsonal.

The bottom line is that mistakes or accidents could explain every single incident listed in the article. Also the accounts of Israely soldiers contradict the accounts of these civilians. Thats why you have to have more than simply eyewitness testimony. Also, If a Palestinian civilian runs toward Israely soldiers without stopping, how are Israely soldiers to know that person does not have a bomb, the soldiers have no choice but to open fire to prevent themselves from being killed by a possible suicide bomber!

Clearly this article is biased because they turn eyewitness testimony of one side into FACT. That alone is never FACT. Perhaps its not to the right or the left. But it is a European publication which means that it is probably anti-semitic, especially given the un-objective nature of the article.

A clear example of a War Crime is when for example, caputured men are blind folded and led to a ditch or wall, and then shot from nearly point blank range. Most of the injuries after the bodies are found and examined are nearly the same, to include type of round and type of injuries and location of them that lead to death. That is the type of science that proved war crimes in other locations around the world. When you have people with all different types of injuries that led to death, from different types of objects, that just shows the normal Chaos of war and not war crimes. Another way to show or prove war crimes is to have Video that clearly shows both soldier or Terrorist and victim and crime commited in real time.

The Israely's rightly blocked the UN investigation because it did not have Military personal on the commision nor terrorism experts. Only military and terrorism experts who accurately understand military operations and the intense Chaos of war will be able to determine possibly if war crimes were committed or not. Also carefull examination of the bodies should tell the real story. Again doctors who examine the bodies will be looking for a trend in terms of location of injuries and type of injury plus cause to determine if the persons death was caused by a war crime or normal chaos of being in a battlefield. The commision did have people politically motivated against Israel. Hopefully a new one will be formed with the responsible experts included.
 
Amna,
The pictures on that site which is clearly biased did not show any war crimes committed by Israely soldiers. Clearly it showed people who had been wounded or killed, but how that actually happened is not known or shown in the photograph. Many of the pictures were clearly taken out of context. Of course when Israely tanks go into restore order in an area, your going to see people running. That does not mean that the Israely tank is actually after the childern. Each of those tanks has a rapid fire machine gun that could have mowed down all those childern in seconds. THAT did not happen and the tanks turret is turned away from them. Another picture where the Israely soldier is kneeling down and is gun looks as if it might be pointed the direction of the mothers childern, but the soldier is not looking at them and the gun is really pointed past the childern.

Amna, I suggest you go to websites that will offer information more objectively than the one you used. It shows pictures and captions of those pictures attempting to show Israely war crimes, but in reality shows only human suffering and not the circumstances in which that suffering was brought about. Even the website that Fizzing mentioned is better than that.
 
O my god, Sting, u r pretty stubborn in your beliefs that the IDF are doing a good job in what they do.... Did it ever occur to you that the US media is extremely bias as a whole... All info that we recieve is bias information... I've been studying the conflict for a while.... And believe me, I've studied from valid resources.... Study your biases and make your own oppinion...
The US is supporting Israel to buy voters choice. The US as a whole has more of a majority of Jewish people. So, the reason why we support Israel is def. not based on moral and ethics. so, as a result, of course our media is going to hold great propoganda showing more of one side then the other.
Media is censored. So, your telling me to get a valid resource? My question is coming back to you, where's your valid un-bias resource.
You look at those pictures, and your making your own assumptions. Well, fine go ahead.... But on 20/20, *+(the pic of the father and son)was shown, both were defensless, yet the army (roughly 30 men) shot fires against the little boy, who was crying...... This isn't a war crime?
OPEN YOUR EYES
What is going on?
I've got another question for the public... Here we are supplying Israel with roughtly 70 billion dollars.... Where as we have a growing poverty rate here. In addtion, Africa is suffering greatly... Why the hell is 70bill going towards one country.
 
Amna,
First, US support for Israel per year is not 70 billion. It is 3 billion dollars. There is obvious support for Israel both on Moral and Ethical grounds. Israel is one of the few countries in the world that is surrounded by enemies and was attacked in different ways 4 times from 1948 to 1973. Terrorism and airplane highjackings, killing athletes at the Olympics, are hallmarks of the Palestinian resistance. Israel offered the Palestinians a peace deal, the best the Palestinians could ever hope for, and they rejected it and responded with suicide bombings.

Here is a fact for you. No media outlet, biased or unbiased, Palestinian, Israely, European, or American, disputes the fact that Palestinians commit terror through suicide bombings of innocent Israely civilians. What is heavily disputed is the assumption that the IDF plans and executes terrorism against Palestinian civilians.

I'm sorry but the mere fact that civilians are killed on the battlefield in and of itself is not a war crime. It is sad for sure, but that is what happens in war. The boy and man that you talk were unfortunately caught in a crossfire during a battle and were killed. If they had just been huddled in the corner like that with no shooting from Palestinians they would have been ordered to come out, perhaps partially strip their clothes to show they did not have a bomb on them and then taken in to questioning or released depending on the circumstances of the situation.

Going back to the pictures on the website you showed. Yes, I was able to form an assumption about them, just as the people who posted them were, for the simple fact is that all they showed were people suffering and did not actually show the alleged crime in progress. There for how can anyone know for sure that in fact did happen as the website said it did. Again, the IDF says such things did not happen, that they did not target people they knew were not terrorist and innocent.

The only way to prove war crimes is through scientific examination of the bodies and cause of death, or video showing clearly the crime and progress, and no it can be confused combat footage where the soldiers are firing at many different things in the heat of combat. The evidence has to clearly demonstrate that the attacker new the victim was a non-combatent, and show the attacker clearly commiting the crime against the victim.

I've looked at many sources throughout the internet, but have yet to see proof of Israely war crimes at Jenin or anywhere else over the past few weeks. Certainly all media is biased. But I'm more likely to trust media institutions that are based in DEMOCRACIES rather than media that comes from countries where the government has total control over what is printed and the government is not a democracy. Freedom of speech and freedom of the press are things the west enjoys that most in the Middle East do not have. By the way, Israel is a democracy and was the first country in the region to give ARAB WOMEN the right to vote!

I will not defend the IDF if indisputable evidence is produced to show they committed war crimes. So far none has surfaced and I'm not going to trust the allegations of a group of people that activily supports and believes in the actions of suicide bombers that target and kill only innocent people. Indisputable evidence must be produced to support their allegations for them to be credible.
 
the IDF has commited many war crimes, they just haven't been throroughly judged in the US....
1. Footage of innocent lives being killed....
pour example:http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000170.php
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000170.php
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000170.php
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000170.php
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000170.php


(if u don't call that a war crime, then, Sting, I don't know whats wrong with you... Because no child should ever be killed for throwing a couple of stones.
2. Sabra and Shatilla, Lebanon: Many are trying to file suits against Sharon.
3. Most Palestinians have showed their gratititude for those lost in the Sep.11th incident..... Their were many candle lighting ceremonies.

Why is it so hard to admit that both sides have commited crimes against peace, its true....
 
the IDF has commited many war crimes, they just haven't been throroughly judged in the US....
1. Footage of innocent lives being killed....
pour example:http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000170.php
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000170.php
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000170.php
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000170.php
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000170.php


(if u don't call that a war crime, then, Sting, I don't know whats wrong with you... Because no child should ever be killed for throwing a couple of stones.
2. Sabra and Shatilla, Lebanon: Many are trying to file suits against Sharon.
3. Most Palestinians have showed their gratititude for those lost in the Sep.11th incident..... Their were many candle lighting ceremonies.

Why is it so hard to admit that both sides have commited crimes against peace, its true....
 
Sharon Gives Bush the Finger!

26cnd-bush.1.jpg



Israel Raids West Bank City Despite Bush Call
By REUTERS

Filed at 1:13 p.m. ET

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel asked the U.N. to delay its investigation of Jenin refugee camp and sent troops back into a Palestinian city Friday, defying President Bush's latest call for an end to its offensive.

A Palestinian official said Israel's demand showed it had something to hide and urged the United Nations to get tough.

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan had insisted a fact-finding team arrive by Saturday to look into what happened during Israel's three-week assault on the West Bank camp. Israel denies Palestinian charges that troops committed a massacre there.

SHARON'S RATINGS RISE
Sharon, whose domestic popularity was at its lowest ebb before the operation began, has seen his ratings climb 19 percentage points to 64, according to a poll published in Israel's Yediot Ahronoth daily Friday.

Now we know why people are being crushed to death in their homes
 
Originally posted by STING2:
Clearly this article is biased because they turn eyewitness testimony of one side into FACT. That alone is never FACT. Perhaps its not to the right or the left. But it is a European publication which means that it is probably anti-semitic, especially given the un-objective nature of the article.

I take issue with your statement here, insinuating that Europeans are anti-semitic (a strange term these days BTW, as Palestinians also descend from the Semetic people). No, we are not anti-jewish. Many Europeans, however, are very critical to the actions Israel takes against Palestinians, their policy of destroying Palestinian infrastucture, both physical as social, and constant humiliation of the Palestinian people. But this does not make them anti-jewish (at most you can say anti-Israel).
You may be right in saying that the report in The Independent is not a fact, as the article does not give substantial evidence or quotes other independent sources, but that does not mean you can dismiss it that easily. This article is not the only one describing the situation in Palestina (Jenin in this case), many more sources report of the behaviour of the Israelis in the occupied regions. The article alone may not be a FACT, but it is a SOURCE to a FACT.

Marty


------------------
People criticize me but I know it's not the end
I try to kick the truth, not just to make friends

Spearhead - People In Tha Middle
 
Popmartian,
Its not a source to a fact, because what is alleged to have happened in Jenin has not been established as fact. Its true that Palestinians can also be refered to as semitic, but for the most part this term has refered to the Jews.

While I can't establish this as a fact, I do feel that on the whole, Europe is Anti-Jewish. It was discrimination of Jews all over Europe starting in the 1800s that led many of them to start and settle in Palestine. Then came World War II and the slaughter of 6 million Jews. No Hitler and the SS did not do it by themselves. There were many people in countries through out Europe who aided or told them who were Jews, or made no attempt to hide them. It is sad and discusting and I hate when Europeans act with indifference towards what happened. Just recently in France, the #2 guy in the first round of voting has said that the slaughter of Jews was just a minor event. Switzerland made a handsome profit from the slaughter of Jews in World War II. Then you have all these hate crimes that are committed against Jews in Europe with the recent crises. After what happened 60 years ago in Europe, that is just sick!

I look at that, and then see Europes un-objective reaction to events in Israel. They overlook the slaughter of Israely citizens attack Israels right to defend itself. They accuse Israel of war crimes yet give no evidence to support their views. Instead of holding back judgement until the Facts are known, they rush to judgement of Israel. Some countries were about to issue economic sanctions! That is just sick. You combine these two facts of Europes past and present and its rather frightening.
 
Originally posted by STING2:
While I can't establish this as a fact, I do feel that on the whole, Europe is Anti-Jewish. It was discrimination of Jews all over Europe starting in the 1800s that led many of them to start and settle in Palestine. Then came World War II and the slaughter of 6 million Jews. No Hitler and the SS did not do it by themselves. There were many people in countries through out Europe who aided or told them who were Jews, or made no attempt to hide them.


I assume by this logic I could describe the United States as racist due to its acceptance of slavery until the mid-nineteenth-century and refusal to guarantee Black people any civil rights until the 1960s.

Just recently in France, the #2 guy in the first round of voting has said that the slaughter of Jews was just a minor event.


Jean-Marie Le Pen - leader of the French National Front - a fascist party which believes Black people ought to have limited access to jobs, public services and housing and supports an immediate end to immigration and the forced deportation of three million immigrants. Le Pen is certainly one of the most disgusting figures in contemporary politics, and sadly there are others like him across Europe. However, I don't believe Le Pen's views on the holocaust are shared by the majority of citizens in Europe, and I'd like to draw your attention to the mass demonstrations which occured following his "success" (17% of the vote) in the first round of the French elections. Please don't assume that the politics of the far-right are the politics of all European citizens, anymore than the politics of far-right politicians in the United States (Pat Buchanan, for example) are representative of all people.

I look at that, and then see Europes un-objective reaction to events in Israel. They overlook the slaughter of Israely citizens attack Israels right to defend itself. They accuse Israel of war crimes yet give no evidence to support their views. Instead of holding back judgement until the Facts are known, they rush to judgement of Israel. Some countries were about to issue economic sanctions! That is just sick. You combine these two facts of Europes past and present and its rather frightening.

You assume criticism of Israel is automatically criticism of Judaism. That's absolutely not the case, in fact even prominent members of the Jewish community have spoken out in condemnation of Israel's actions in recent months. You can criticise the actions of the Israeli government without reference to their religion. I don't condemn Ariel Sharon for being Jewish - I condemn him for ordering the events which have occured in Palestine recently. It has nothing to do with his religion - I would be equally critical if he were Christian, Muslim, Athiest or of any other faith.
 
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