Burmese riot police attack monks

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LJT

LJT

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From the BBC:

Several thousand Burmese monks and other protesters have held new marches in Rangoon despite a bloody crackdown by police at the city's holiest shrine. Police beat and arrested demonstrators at Shwedagon Pagoda, including up to 100 monks, on the ninth day of unrest against the military government.

One march started for the city centre while another headed for the home of opposition head Aung San Suu Kyi. Security forces have reportedly ringed six key monasteries in the city.

Analysts fear a repeat of the violence in 1988, when troops opened fire on unarmed protesters, killing thousands. Anger is growing among the protesters in Rangoon over the treatment of the monks, the BBC's South East Asia correspondent, Jonathan Head, reports.

'Covered in blood'

A clampdown on the media by the government, which has banned gatherings of five people or more and imposed a night-time curfew, makes following the exact course of Wednesday's street protests difficult.

It is known that several thousand monks and opposition activists moved away from Shwedagon Pagoda, heading for the Sule Pagoda in the city centre. Reports suggest they were prevented from reaching it but other demonstrators did gather at Sule to jeer at soldiers.

Troops responded by firing tear gas and live rounds over the protesters' heads, sending people running for cover.

Monks marching to the home of Aung San Suu Kyi reportedly urged civilian supporters not to join them. "We monks will do this, please don't join us, don't do anything violent," they were quoted by AFP news agency as saying.

Earlier, at Shwedagon Pagoda, riot police beat their shields with their batons and yelled at protesters before charging the crowd. A number of the monks and nuns were left covered in blood and appeared to be seriously injured, and some shots were also heard, witnesses say.

British embassy sources say at least 100 monks were beaten and arrested.

"The riot police started to beat up the monks," one monk at Shwedagon Pagoda told the BBC.

"We were peacefully chanting prayers. They used tear gas and some monks were hit. Some monks were injured."

Demonstrators were dragged away in trucks as dozens were arrested. Two of the country's most prominent dissidents, U Win Naing and popular comedian Zaganar, were arrested overnight.

'Different situation'

Aung Naing Oo, a former student leader in Burma who was involved in the 1988 uprising and who now lives in exile in the UK, believes the junta cannot stop the 2007 protesters.

"Nobody knew what was happening in 1988," he told the Today programme on BBC Radio Four.

"There was only very little information about the killings. Now with the internet and the whole world watching I think its a totally different story now and I think the other important difference is that in 1988 it was the students that were leading the demonstrations, but now it is the monks. Monks are highly revered in the country."

The junta broke its silence over the mounting protests late on Monday, saying it was ready to "take action".

US President George W Bush has announced a tightening of existing US economic sanctions against it. America already has an arms ban on Burma, a ban on all exports, a ban on new investment and a ban on financial services.

The protests were triggered by the government's decision to double the price of fuel last month, hitting people hard in the impoverished nation.

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Just wondering if people have been following this story, will it turn out any different than the 1988 protests, or will it be just more bloodshed?
 
I've been following this; it's been the lead story here on SBS for the last few nights. I've honestly been amazed that the protests managed to go on peacefully so long, but after the massive protest with over 30,000 (I've seen some sources say 100,000+), I figured things were about to turn to shit. I think there's a little bit of hope considering the central position of the monks; depends on the loyalties of the military generals I suppose. But that's only a little bit of hope. I'm not feeling optimistic.
 
If any monks are killed, it could cause a national uprising, if it doesn't what would it take for democracy to take hold, or at least something better than the junta? There may have to be bloodshed one way or another.

I wonder who the generals are kidding when they say that it is the likes of the BBC stoking these protests?

I really do find it hard to understand how places like Burma, Zimbabwe and North Korea can all continue to exist as they are, and the best we can do is impose sanctions?
 
I've been following this. Very saddened to hear that it has turned violent. Still, I want to feel hopeful that because it is the monks who are leading the resistance that things will be different this time. But the junta has been holding on to power for so long...I just don't know. What is the role of the international community in all of this?
 
Apparently, what took so long for the junta to act this time is pressure from China - the two have close ties and China is pressuring Burma not to take excessive action lest it damage China's rep because of the upcoming Olympics...
 
Sounds like it's getting worse...apparently a few monks have been killed:(
 
sulawesigirl4 said:
I've been following this. Very saddened to hear that it has turned violent. Still, I want to feel hopeful that because it is the monks who are leading the resistance that things will be different this time. But the junta has been holding on to power for so long...I just don't know. What is the role of the international community in all of this?
Click to expand...

The intl community is staying quiet. Economically there´s not much to win in Burma - they only export a load of drugs - so other countries don´t give a shit.

May I recommend Morris L. West´s book "The Ambassador" describing an uprising of monks in the Vietnam war.
 
LJT said:
If any monks are killed, it could cause a national uprising, if it doesn't what would it take for democracy to take hold, or at least something better than the junta? There may have to be bloodshed one way or another.
Click to expand...

I understand some monks were killed in the 1988 uprising too - though, of course, this is different as the monks are actually the leaders, not students. More violent reprisals and the deaths of more monks could provoke a national uprising and would sit uncomfortably with the devout Buddhists high in the Burmese military's hierarchy, but I wonder just how much that would ultimately achieve. This is a junta that has proven it's batshit insane and will do whatever it takes to hold onto power.

I think it was Max Weber who distinguished between chiefs, staff, and the masses; in this case, the chiefs would be the military rulers and top generals, the staff would be the general military, and the masses is pretty obvious. Whether or not a revolution succeeds, per Weber, is dependent upon who the staff support; while the chief keep the staff on their side, the masses can be repressed, but if the staff side with the masses, the chiefs are, in a word, fucked. I think that idea has credibility, and I fear we are about to see it proven - no matter how many people in Burma rise up against the junta, the military will suppress them and no revolution will be successful.

Damnit I hope the monks have enough sway to cause mass dissention in the military and the leaders lose their base of support.
 
There may be reason to hope that large-scale violence will not be used to put down the protests, especially since Beijing, the regime's only real 'ally,' is pressuring them not to 'overreact.' I'm not optimistic that this wave of nonviolent protest would survive, say, mass arrests and rigid curfews, but it could be that the combination of the monks' involvement and the greater international visibility now, compared to 1988, might give them the morale to keep going. I don't think demoralization of the army seems very likely at this point; they have too much to lose.

All the international community likely can and will do is continue to issue strong condemnations and clamp down further on the few Western companies still investing in Burma. The three countries which share long borders and significant economic ties (textiles, lumber, rice, gems, oil) with Burma--Thailand, China, and India--are unlikely to go much beyond milder statements to the effect that Burma's 'internal problems' should be dealt with 'more inclusively' by the regime, accompanied by the usual pledges of nonintervention. China's economic ties to Burma are extensive, and Beijing wants to keep the country firmly in its sphere of influence; India and Thailand are already agitated by the degree to which their border regions have been destabilized by large influxes of refugees and cross-border insurgency movements, and worry about the longterm implications of 'losing Burma' entirely to China.
 
This is actually why I logged in today. I want to express my sadness and outrage that this can still happen in 2007:(
 
What I understand is the monks a few months back declined donations by the generals, which in the branch of Buddhism in Burma (Thervada(sp?) I think?) is considered one of the greatest insults possible.

The monks have the greatest influence outside of the junta, and would obviously hold the greatest respect of the people, more so than Aung San Suu Kyi i'd imagine. The generals in charge are known to be quite superstitious and with the monks refusing their donations it might make them think twice before heavily attacking these monk led protest.

It annoys me that all we can do is sit back and watch and hope the will amongst the people is strong enough for an uprising.
 
http://www.uscampaignforburma.org/

Courage and Outrage

The largest peaceful demonstrations in Burma in 10 years, and the regime responds with brutal force. On September 5th, troops sent in for first time and fire warning shots at monks.

On August 15th, the regime hiked up fuel prices - up to quintupling the price of natural gas; this is despite the fact that the regime makes billions from the export of oil and natural gas.

Then on the 19th, peaceful protests began in the capital Rangoon, and since then have spread. The speculations that protests would die down in Burma have proven wrong, and even though over 150 democracy activists have been arrested so far, many people are stepping up and calling for an end to injustice.

Day after day people continue to march through the streets in towns all over Burma, making their simple and peaceful demands.
Many are also calling for recognition of basic human rights and democracy.
Their courage is reminiscint of the history of the brave people of Argentina, Peru, East Timor, South Africa, India, and elsewhere in which peaceful demonstrators have faced deadly force with nothing more than their belief in telling the truth. Dozens have been beaten, arrested, and carted off to Burma's feared torture centers.
Many governments, organizations, and world leaders have spoken out against this crackdown, and we are asking the UN Security Council to take action.
************************
To send a message:

http://www.democracyinaction.org/di...HomePage.dwt&message=Thank+you.+63.17.139.129

******************
Edited to say: Other countries:
http://www.freeburma.org/
 
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LJT said:
What I understand is the monks a few months back declined donations by the generals, which in the branch of Buddhism in Burma (Thervada(sp?) I think?) is considered one of the greatest insults possible.

The monks have the greatest influence outside of the junta, and would obviously hold the greatest respect of the people, more so than Aung San Suu Kyi i'd imagine. The generals in charge are known to be quite superstitious and with the monks refusing their donations it might make them think twice before heavily attacking these monk led protest.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but the monks have boycotted alms from the military before--most recently in 1990, when the junta annulled the elections which would have brought Aung San Suu Kyi's party to power--and while that kind of thing definitely telegraphs a message to the general public, there's not much precedent for expecting it to sway the military's opinion. It might possibly cause a few defections, but my impression is that the generals' often very public show of making donations to the monks is more on the order of how Saddam Hussein used to build lavish mosques...a PR gesture having little or nothing to do with piety. It's true they have a reputation for "superstitiousness," but I think that's with reference to things like consulting astrologers before making major decisions, not reverence for monks.

There have been reports from both India and Thailand of bands of refugees who fled Burma after their ethnicities' uprisings were put down by the junta slipping back over the border...possibly in hopes of joining the protests, but more likely in hopes of rejoining the fight. While there are some doubts out there whether the junta can ever be brought down peaceably, it's hard to imagine that the return of the militias would be good news--a major reason why the country descended into one-party military rule decades ago was chronic instability resulting from multiple insurgencies, which then became an excuse for increasingly brutal government suppression.

No surprise, but China today blocked a Security Council resolution condemning the violence...
 
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I don't know how or why they think they can do this in an age where EVERYONE is watching you. This is a lead story here, and something everyone is talking about. I hope our leaders follow suit.
 
Hey, not to cause a flame war in here, but the whole world watched the Arabs/Palestinians and the Jews battle it out in 1948 and did not a damned thing either way...just a lot of diplomatic hoo-ha. After the Brits had dropped all the weapons off with the Palestinians and sailed off into the sunset, the two-faced bastards....and a lot of other instances I'm sure.

Bottom line: if your country does not possess that filthy three-letter word, the int'l community really could not give a ****. Everyone was perfectly happy to sit back and watch Bosnia burn from 1991-1995, and Rwanda for 3 months in '94, so why should we be surprised?
It would have been interesting if the Net had been around in China in 1989 though. No Chinese could have blogged (we in the West happy to comply with censorship then as now I'm sure) but the Westerners there would have spread the info flames.)

As for all that crap about "China will never do this or that b/c she's worried about the Olympics"--how can anyone be so naive. Until the West boycotts China economically and pulls its businesses out of there, that'll make her listen..but that'll never happen; she runs the world now, and she knows it.

Still, I will pray (like Bono--he's come out with a statement) and hope for the best. There has to come a time when even those who profit, know what it does to the human spirit. I can't see how desperate they can be..the "Staff" that is.

Which makes you wonder...the Staff all hate the Iraqi war; the Chiefs are all for it. How long can this state of affairs pan out, with America's economic situation? 10 yrs? 20? Vietnam took place with the dollar and the economy high; US oil production was at its peak; and so was American manufacturing and global prestiege, oil was cheap, and she had no competitors economically.....
 
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Just read in an MSNBC link to Newsweek that Aung San Suu Kyi has reportely been snatched from her home and whisked off to the notorious Insein prison. This is probably the lovely place she spent so much time in prior to her house arrest, though I don't know. She isn't a young woman any more and couldn't stand any sort of rough treatment. I doubt if they will harm her, but who knows what these people in the junta may threaten to do if the protesters do not back down. I'm sure if this goes on much longer she will be pressured to make some sort of a statement urging her countrymen to cease and desist. If she refuses, which she very likely will, all bets are off.

If this is true, and considering Bono has already made a statement mentioning her yesterday, I suggest we follow his advice and REALLY start praying now....:(
 
The solution to this is easy. The leading countries of the world quit trading and buying products with China.

Of course, just because the solution is easy doesn't mean it will happen. The US would never stop buying from China.
 
Burma is not a Chinese puppet; that would be way overstating the degree of alliance.
 
Bono's poetic liberty medal speech included some words about Burma, afterwards I told him I appreciated that and the torture condemnation. He gave a great statement about America tonight.."for every time I wince or gasp or punch a wall" re: america also.
 
Deadly Crackdown Intensifies in Burma

By Edward Cody
Washington Post, September 28

Intensifying their crackdown despite pressures from abroad, Burmese security forces raided a half-dozen Buddhist monasteries Thursday and opened fire on pockets of demonstrators who continued to demand an end to military rule. The Burmese government announced that nine people had been killed in the violence, making it the bloodiest day in weeks of escalating protests...The dead included a Japanese journalist, Kenji Nagai, who had been covering the demonstrations, according to his employer, APF News. Another foreigner, reportedly a Caucasian woman, was also seen shot and wounded in the street, according to the exile groups.

...The U.S. Treasury Department designated 14 senior Burmese figures under new sanctions announced by Bush earlier in the week, including Than Shwe; the army commander, Vice Senior Gen. Maung Aye; and the acting prime minister, Lt. Gen. Thein Sein. Any assets they have in U.S. jurisdictions will be frozen, and Americans are now banned from doing business with them. U.S. officials hope to leverage that to influence foreign banks and institutions to follow suit. The European Union also vowed to seek tighter sanctions. The United Nations, meanwhile, has said it will send an envoy to Burma, a move that the Burmese foreign minister said Thursday would be welcomed.

Video images from Burma, also known as Myanmar, showed a preponderance of lay people in the demonstrations on Thursday, most of them of student age. Some news agencies estimated that as many as 70,000 people took to the streets of Rangoon and other cities, despite the soldiers' warnings and the death of at least one protester on Wednesday. Soe Aung, spokesman for the Thailand-based National Council of the Union of Burma, an exile group, said the number was probably much lower, perhaps as low as 10,000, which was sharply down from Wednesday. "This would be mainly because of the raids that took place before dawn in Rangoon," he said.

...Armed security forces burst into at least five monasteries in Rangoon and two others in outlying cities on Thursday, ransacking rooms and arresting and beating monks believed to be protest leaders, Soe Aung and news agency reports said. At least 150 monks were hauled away in one of the raids, they said. Myint Thein, a spokesman for the pro-democracy political party headed by Nobel Peace laureate Aung San Suu Kyi, was also taken into custody during the night, the Associated Press quoted family members as saying. Suu Kyi herself has spent most of the past 18 years in prison or under house arrest and has been detained continuously since May 2003. The arrests marked the beginning of what probably will be an extended series of arrests of monks and lay activists who helped promote the protests, said David Mathieson, a Thailand-based Burma specialist with Human Rights Watch. Security services likely had been watching key people for days, monitoring cellphones and noting protest organizers in an effort to identify leaders and mark them for arrest, he said. "You get involved, and you start getting sloppy," he added, "and then they lock you up."

In another sign the government was tightening its grip, exile groups headquartered in neighboring Thailand said communications with their contacts in Rangoon and Burma's other cities were getting more difficult, apparently the result of government efforts to cut cellphone links. Most foreign correspondents were barred from entering the country.
Click to expand...
^ That's exactly what the junta did back in '88...bided their time awhile so they could get a fix on who the leaders of the protests were. Although when the crackdown came that time, it killed thousands.
Caution by Junta's Asian Neighbors Reflects Their Self-Interest

By Edward Cody
Washington Post, September 28

BANGKOK -- The United States and Europe have fiercely criticized Burma's military rulers for clinging to power during another round of pro-democracy protests, this time led by unarmed monks. But closer to home, the junta's Asian neighbors and trading partners--China chief among them--have walked a distinctly more cautious line, expressing distress over the violence and, after long hesitation, renewing calls for reconciliation and eventual transition to democracy.

The discretion by China and Thailand in particular reflects sensitivity over their own political systems. China has been a one-party dictatorship for more than half a century, and its Communist rulers have given no sign they are willing to change anytime soon. In Thailand, a military coup d'etat gave power a year ago to a uniformed junta with different policies but the same origin--the barracks--as the one putting down marchers in Rangoon. As a result, neither government can afford to be seen applauding as the Burmese monks cry out for an end to dictatorship. Were they to join the United States and Europe in clearly urging Burma's generals to step aside for democratic elections, the question in Beijing and Bangkok would be obvious: Why is democracy not also the right path for China and Thailand?

Partly out of these concerns, the main regional grouping, the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, or ASEAN, had for two weeks reacted to the crisis by citing its doctrine of noninterference in the affairs of member nations, which include Burma. Like China, ASEAN limited itself to deploring the violence and urging some kind of peaceful settlement. After protracted internal deliberations, the group's foreign ministers issued a harsher statement Thursday at the United Nations, saying they were "appalled to receive reports of automatic weapons being used" against demonstrators and "expressed revulsion" at reports of protests being suppressed with violence. But the ministers refrained from demanding an immediate end to the military junta's half-century of dictatorship, appealing to the generals instead to release political prisoners and carry out long-unfulfilled promises for a program of reforms aimed at movement toward a civilian government. The limp response has generated unease among some in Thailand. Thitinan Pongsudhirak, director of the Institute of Security and International Studies at Chulalongkorn University, published an essay in Friday's Bangkok Post under the headline, 'ASEAN's failure and Thailand's shame'. "Always full of sound and fury, ASEAN has done too little to be taken seriously by the international community," he wrote.

India, Burma's giant neighbor in the other direction, also has avoided taking a hard line against the junta, even though it has a cherished and internationally respected tradition of democratic rule. [As an official said, "India is a democracy and we recommend it as a mode of governance. But we're not in the business of pushing it down others' throats."] The external affairs minister, Pranab Mukherjee, explained that New Delhi regards the monks' uprising as an internal affair in which India's views have no place. "The government of India is concerned at and is closely monitoring the situation in Myanmar," his ministry said in a statement Wednesday evening, using the junta's name for Burma. "India has always believed that Myanmar's process of political return and national reconciliation should be more inclusive and broad based."

..."What has sealed our lips?" Karan Thapar, a noted television commentator, asked on the editorial page of Thursday's Hindustan Times. "The fact that the Burmese junta may cease to curb the activities of Indian militants and secessionists from Burmese soil. I don't deny that is an important concern. But surely the government could have found a forum of words to support the cause of democracy without breaking the pact with the generals. Our pact with them is Faustian and we need to break free of it."

China has been cited most frequently over the last week as a logical source of influence over Senior Gen. Than Shwe and his fellow generals on the State Peace and Development Council. Some reports from Beijing suggested that, behind the scenes, Chinese diplomats are urging restraint and reform on the generals. But in public, President Hu Jintao's government has limited its comments to calls for stability and reconciliation. On Thursday, President Bush met with Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi to press Beijing to do more to rein in the junta...Like India, China has strategic and economic interests in Burma, which lies just to its south. Burmese gas reserves, estimated at 19 trillion cubic feet, have not escaped the notice of energy-hungry Chinese officials. Teak logging has long been a big business in the border area--some of it legal, some of it not. In all, China's trade with Burma amounted to more than $2 billion last year, making China the biggest commercial partner of Burma.

Thailand's interests in Burma also have grown in recent years with an increase in cross-border trade. Much of that was natural gas and teak imported into Thailand. More broadly, it has long had an interest in stability because an estimated 3 million Burmese refugees have crossed the border looking for safety from the country's recurrent turmoil..."Thailand's response has always been a mixture of commercial self-interest and the impact military rule in Burma has on Thailand, with the refugees and all that," said David Mathieson, a Thailand-based Burma specialist with Human Rights Watch.
Click to expand...
The French oil company Total, French telecom Alcatel, Daewoo (S. Korea), Suzuki, and Chevron (as a subsidiary of Total's projects) all also have operations in Burma, Total's being the largest of those apparently, though I'm not sure they have "investments" in the country per se, which seems to be what the sanctions are aimed at.
 
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Here's some interesting items of news: http://www.mizzima.com/MizzimaNews/News/2007/Sep/Demon-28-Sep- 2007.html

Two main points:
1. Troops from middle Burma are marching on Rangoon, but whose side they're on is currently anyone's guess. Apparently an air force division has also been scrambled and there is commotion of an unknown nature at a couple of barracks. (Not that I'm particularly optimistic the military's coming to support the monks, but the next point indicates maybe there's a rift ...)
2. Junta ruler Than Shwe's second-in-command, Maung Aye apparently does not approve of the brutal violence used in clamping down on the protests. The Irrawady is also reporting this (as unconfirmed, naturally), and cites diplomatic sources that claim Maung Aye is going to meet with Aung San Suu Kyi.

Will be interesting to see how this pans out. I'm not getting my hopes up, but ... come on. The junta cannot last forever.
 
Kenji Nagai of Japan, a journalist with APF News, tried to take photographs as he lay injured after security forces fired and charged a crowd of protesters yesterday in Rangoon, Burma. He later died, adding to the casualties in the bloodiest day in weeks of escalating protests against the ruling military junta.


410w.jpg
 
Riddle me this, folks. What do we think of the possibility of a "Berlin Air Lift"? Anyone else think a gesture along those lines might be startling enough to stop the violence? Not to mention, feed some folks?

Meantime :sad: :mad:
 
Aid is not the sort of intervention Burma needs, while in poverty in comparison to the West, I don't believe there is any problem food wise.

Political intervention is what is actually needed.
 
The military would pretty quickly swoop and seize all aid for itself anyway.

I'm just hoping that a serious rift develops high in the junta's hierarchy. If Maung Aye and his supporters won't violently suppress the protests, Than Shwe's position will look more shaky. But the most recent news I've heard from Burma are not inspiring any sense of optimism.
 
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