phillyfan26
Blue Crack Supplier
- Joined
- May 7, 2006
- Messages
- 30,343
INDY500 said:Then in the spirit of the new year I'll retract it.
Happy New Years.
Same to you.
INDY500 said:Then in the spirit of the new year I'll retract it.
Happy New Years.
INDY500 said:
I understand your point and you are correct, radical Islam can't be bombed, isolated, embargoed or entered into treaty with. It is, to be sure, a new type of War -- but a war nevertheless. And we are still in the process of discovering the most effective ways to win it. There are many ways to win a war of ideology.
INDY500 said:
I don't accept your moral equivalency.
All "torture" is not equal.
INDY500 said:
9/11-- just a random attack by a group, totally unrelated to previous or subsequent attacks and with no underlying ideology. Well, if you believe that you should pooh-pooh the War on Terror I guess.
INDY500 said:
The street is their battlefield. Civilian clothes their uniform.
ntalwar said:
What proof is there that it's a "War of ideology"? Why haven't there been attacks on churches if that's the case? Who says it's a war of ideology, and not one of land occupation or one of natural resources? Fox News?
People of America: I shall be speaking to you on important topics which concern you, so lend me your ears. I begin by discussing the war which is between us and some of its repercussions for us and you."
... there are two solutions for stopping it. The first is from our side, and it is to continue to escalate the killing and fighting against you. This is our duty, and our brothers are carrying it out, and I ask Allah to grant them resolve and victory. And the second solution is from your side. It has now become clear to you and the entire world the impotence of the democratic system and how it plays with the interests of the peoples and their blood by sacrificing soldiers and populations to achieve the interests of the major corporations."
This is why I tell you: as you liberated yourselves before from the slavery of monks, kings, and feudalism, you should liberate yourselves from the deception, shackles and attrition of the capitalist system.
So it is imperative that you free yourselves from all of that and search for an alternative, upright methodology in which it is not the business of any class of humanity to lay down its own laws to its own advantage at the expense of the other classes as is the case with you, since the essence of man-made positive laws is that they serve the interests of those with the capital and thus make the rich richer and the poor poorer.
The infallible methodology is the methodology of Allah, the Most High, who created the heavens and earth and created the Creation and is the Most Kind and All-Informed and the Knower of the souls of His slaves and the methodology that best suits them.
To conclude, I invite you to embrace Islam, for the greatest mistake one can make in this world and one which is uncorrectable is to die while not surrendering to Allah, the Most High, in all aspects of one's life - ie., to die outside of Islam. And Islam means gain for you in this first life and the next, final life. The true religion is a mercy for people in their lives, filling their hearts with serenity and calm.
And it will also achieve your desire to stop the war as a consequence, because as soon as the warmongering owners of the major corporations realize that you have lost confidence in your democratic system and begun to search for an alternative, and that this alternative is Islam.
INDY500 said:
Don't take my word for it, read the Sept 07 message from bin Laden in which you will read:
Irvine511 said:
but all torture gets you the same thing -- bad information. and it ushers in the sadists. and the good people leave. and it will destroy you from within before anyone destroys you from outside.
INDY500 said:
Sorry, I know that's the talking point but it simply isn't true. Do you believe George Tenet when he says post-9/11 interrogations uncovered terror plots and saved lives? That they led to the capture of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed?
That the whole program was legal under U.S. law and that top members of Congress, including Nancy Pelosi, have been fully briefed since 2002.
It's a good argument to have, but labeling everything remotely harsh as "torture" while ignoring even the possibility of any benefit isn't really in our best interest is it?
Happy New Year by the way.
Irvine511 said:
i don't believe that there was information gathered through these "aggressive" techniques that could not have been acquired through legal means, and no one ever talks about the massive, massive wastes of time and money that has been spent investigating the bogus information coughed up by waterboarding.
are you going to believe the men who authorized these techniques? why wouldn't they attempt to justify their illegal actions?
BonoVoxSupastar said:
How does being unrelated to previous or subsequent attacks have anything to do with anything?
Exactly. But how does that justify keeping possible innocent people in custody or torture?
INDY500 said:
Wasn't Nazism an ideology that used the resources of Germany to spread. One needn't be German to have been a Nazi after all. The 30 Years War was about ideology wasn't it. What of civil wars?
INDY500 said:I understand your point and you are correct, radical Islam can't be bombed, isolated, embargoed or entered into treaty with. It is, to be sure, a new type of War -- but a war nevertheless. And we are still in the process of discovering the most effective ways to win it. There are many ways to win a war of ideology.
INDY500 said:Do you have to be Muslim? As tragic as OKC was, when terrorists start shouting "McVeigh" as they martyr themselves in place of "Allah" then we can include it in the 21st Century War on Terror, otherwise it truly is an individual act of domestic violence, like Columbine, Virginia Tech and past presidential assassinations have been.
INDY500 said:
Very true, nobody (including GWB) said it would be easy or quick. It may take generations.
Well Vincent, when we "torture" it is to gain intelligence to protect lives -- not to coerce a phoney conversion or a denouncing of former beliefs -- and if we have videotape we destroy those tapes. Our enemy posts their "torture" videos on the internet. We aren't stooping to their level.
But let's say for a moment that Guantanamo Bay is doing more harm than good and must go. So we close it and give all current detainees a plane ticket to Berlin and 50,000 Euros.
You cool with that?
Vincent Vega said:
Yes, of course, because everything is just black and white.
Vincent Vega said:
Do you think anyone cares why you did torture one? Or that you destroyed all evidence?
Oh, they are even publishing their videos, well then we can't be as bad, great logic.
Yeah, I've never understood this leap of logic. Oh, well if you don't want to hold them indefinately without trial then you must want to let them go.Vincent Vega said:
Where in my argument am I stating that you should let them go? Not in the least am I implying this, so please stay focused.
Just treat them as humans, that would be something. Give them equal treatment and a fair trial, and try to focus on the people that are really important, instead of hundreds of people you have captured and now don't know what to do with them.
Show some real strength in treating your enemy with the same respect you ask to receive.
No, no, the right only use Christian "values" to judge and discriminate.Vincent Vega said:
I might be wrong, but I thought those were some Christian values.
INDY500 said:
Legal means.
Vincent Vega said:
And if she is young and nice, she may well look through my window as long as she wishes for.
INDY500 said:And the point of the map is that we'd be safer without surveillance cameras in malls, banks or police cars? Better off without GPS satellites or tracking cookies on web pages? More free without those Kroger, Best Buy or Walgreens shopping cards that keep a record of your purchases? What do they consider surveillance?
a National Applications Office (NAO) will be established to coordinate how the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and domestic law enforcement and rescue agencies use imagery and communications intelligence picked up by U.S. spy satellites. If the plan goes forward, the NAO will create the legal mechanism for an unprecedented degree of domestic intelligence gathering that would make the United States one of the world's most closely monitored nations.
INDY500 said:
Look, I've done my own "threat assessment" on the likelihood of GWB abusing his powers to take away the constitutional rights of any U.S. citizens.
It comes back -- "VERY LOW."
maycocksean said:
Tend to agree with INDY here. As much as I dislike GWB, I really don't think we're anywhere near the level of a " big brother is watching" type society nor do I think we're headed there any time soon.
INDY500 said:
Look, I've done my own "threat assessment" on the likelihood of GWB abusing his powers to take away the constitutional rights of any U.S. citizens.
It comes back -- "VERY LOW."
ntalwar said:
It's largely invisible and unpublicized so far, but it's happening. How about things like the Total Information Awareness project? If that's not Orwellian-sounding, I don't know what is. They may not be peering into homes (yet), but everything involving banking, email, internert, and telephone is known.
INDY500 said:
So it's not that governments spy on it's citizens, they always have, it's what they do with the information.
INDY500 said:But these aren't conspiracies, they are abuses of power for political reasons. And they have existed since the Egyptian pharos employed agents of espionage to expose disloyal subjects or the Romans instituted the first census I suppose.
And it should be noted that these very same administrations used the very same technology to catch criminals, breakup organized crime syndicates, and to uncover spy rings and drug cartels. So it's not that governments spy on it's citizens, they always have, it's what they do with the information.
maycocksean said:Has the Bush administration overreached in terms of invading civil liberties? Absolutely.
But the hyperbolic idea that we're living on the brink of a Soviet-style surveillance state--I just don't see compelling evidence for that. Insisting on extreme scenarios makes it more difficult to argue against the real and serious violations that are actually taking place.
If it were as bad some are implying it is, some FYM posters would be mysteriously disappearing, as the government spiesbecame aware of their anti-Bush views.