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Old 01-01-2008, 10:49 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono


You can't label me a terrorist if I'm innocent and done nothing wrong.
What is "wrong" and who gets to decide that - President Bush?

President Bush told other nations that "you are either with us or with the terrorists". So the fact that Russia and China, etc. don't always go along with the US means they are terrorists subject to torture?
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Old 01-01-2008, 11:12 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono
You can't label me a terrorist if I'm innocent and done nothing wrong.

On the other hand, if I'm constantly threatening your life, harming your children, bombing your house, beating you to a pulp and making your life a living hell.....you have the right to defend yourself in EVERY way possible.
Who's to say you are or aren't?

You make way too many assumptions about the processes of the legal system. It's not perfect. And until you recognize that, your input in these discussions is completely worthless.
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Old 01-01-2008, 02:08 PM   #23
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[QUOTE

President Bush told other nations that "you are either with us or with the terrorists". So the fact that Russia and China, etc. don't always go along with the US means they are terrorists subject to torture?
[/QUOTE]

Citizens of Russia and China have been subject to imprisoning, torturing and outright murder well before the War On Terror. Their respective governments having shown themselves more than capable of the task and hardly in need of U.S. assistance.
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Old 01-01-2008, 02:09 PM   #24
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Germany and France... or "Old Europe"?

ETA: It's pretty sad when you have to justify your actions by saying: But they are doing it, too.
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Old 01-01-2008, 02:25 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

Citizens of Russia and China have been subject to imprisoning, torturing and outright murder well before the War On Terror. Their respective governments having shown themselves more than capable of the task and hardly in need of U.S. assistance.
And it looks like Bush thinks it's a good example to follow.
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Old 01-01-2008, 02:28 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
[QUOTE

President Bush told other nations that "you are either with us or with the terrorists". So the fact that Russia and China, etc. don't always go along with the US means they are terrorists subject to torture?


Citizens of Russia and China have been subject to imprisoning, torturing and outright murder well before the War On Terror. Their respective governments having shown themselves more than capable of the task and hardly in need of U.S. assistance.
[/QUOTE]

Just sad.
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Old 01-01-2008, 02:30 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono


You can't label me a terrorist if I'm innocent and done nothing wrong.
Sure I can. That's exactly what you are saying. You support the torturing and imprisonment of detainees without trial to actually prove they are terrorist.

If you don't have to prove it, than anyone can be labeled a terrorist.

You don't think there are those that are imprisoned or have been imprisoned that have done nothing wrong?
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Old 01-01-2008, 03:16 PM   #28
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Originally posted by ntalwar


And it looks like Bush thinks it's a good example to follow.
I don't accept your moral equivalency.

All "torture" is not equal. The detainment of a few hundred and the harsh interrogation "torture" of only a select few top strategists to help identify terrorists (they don't wear uniforms do they?) and to gain actionable intelligence to prevent the mass-murder of innocents is not the same as the sadistic, systemic and decades long human rights abuses of Russia, Red China, Cuba, N Korea, Iran or Iraq under Saddam Hussein.

But I acknowledge that the virulent hatred of George W Bush makes it difficult for some people to make this distinction.
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Old 01-01-2008, 03:30 PM   #29
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There have been two cases with Germans who have been kidnapped and sent to Guantanamo or one of the secret prisons where they got tortured, detained and kept in secret places without anyone knowing where they are or whether they are still alive.
And they didn't have the least to do with any terrorist organisation, yet they were tortured and kept captive for months.
Who knows how many of those cases exist without anyone knowing, and worse, your govenment set the legal ground for this going out of control. And history has taught us how easily such actions go out of control.
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Old 01-01-2008, 03:36 PM   #30
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Sure I can. That's exactly what you are saying. You support the torturing and imprisonment of detainees without trial to actually prove they are terrorist.

If you don't have to prove it, than anyone can be labeled a terrorist.

You don't think there are those that are imprisoned or have been imprisoned that have done nothing wrong?
The Trial on Terror!!

BVS, that didn't work prior to 9/11...why would it now?

Was the act of crashing hijacked commercial airliners into America's financial district and the Pentagon;

A) A domestic military strike
or
B) A civil crime
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Old 01-01-2008, 03:44 PM   #31
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Originally posted by INDY500
The Trial on Terror!!

BVS, that didn't work prior to 9/11...why would it now?
What didn't work before 9/11?

Also, do you not believe in the Constitution?
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Old 01-01-2008, 03:58 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500


The Trial on Terror!!

BVS, that didn't work prior to 9/11...why would it now?

Was the act of crashing hijacked commercial airliners into America's financial district and the Pentagon;

A) A domestic military strike
or
B) A civil crime
So we've detained those hijackers that crashed the plane into the Pentagon? I wasn't aware of that.
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Old 01-01-2008, 04:05 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

All "torture" is not equal. The detainment of a few hundred and the harsh interrogation "torture" of only a select few top strategists to help identify terrorists (they don't wear uniforms do they?) and to gain actionable intelligence to prevent the mass-murder of innocents is not the same as the sadistic, systemic and decades long human rights abuses of Russia, Red China, Cuba, N Korea, Iran or Iraq under Saddam Hussein.
Don't forget Bush killed the writ of habeas corpus. There's no guarentee that the definition of "terrorist" won't be expanded to anyone who doesn't agree with Bush in the future. In fact, he already hinted it does (per that 2001 quote).
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Old 01-01-2008, 04:14 PM   #34
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega
There have been two cases with Germans who have been kidnapped and sent to Guantanamo or one of the secret prisons where they got tortured, detained and kept in secret places without anyone knowing where they are or whether they are still alive.
And they didn't have the least to do with any terrorist organisation, yet they were tortured and kept captive for months.
Who knows how many of those cases exist without anyone knowing, and worse, your govenment set the legal ground for this going out of control. And history has taught us how easily such actions go out of control.
Of coarse the other side of the coin would be the 3 suspects (2 German Muslims and a Turk) that planned to attack Frankfurt's international airport, the Ramstein Air Base and discos frequented by Americans.

Were these attacks thwarted only by good police work? Maybe, but if it turns out German officials were assisted by information obtained by the questionable tactics of the "intelligence community", would that really matter?

I would hope that both the U.S. president and the German chancellor put saving lives and national defense above all other considerations.
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Old 01-01-2008, 04:15 PM   #35
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Is it not a slippery slope, INDY?
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Old 01-01-2008, 04:33 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500


Of coarse the other side of the coin would be the 3 suspects (2 German Muslims and a Turk) that planned to attack Frankfurt's international airport, the Ramstein Air Base and discos frequented by Americans.

Were these attacks thwarted only by good police work? Maybe, but if it turns out German officials were assisted by information obtained by the questionable tactics of the "intelligence community", would that really matter?

I would hope that both the U.S. president and the German chancellor put saving lives and national defense above all other considerations.
German police observed them for a long time and was well aware of what they were doing. As far as I know they did get information from American intelligence, but everything substantial was gathered by old fashioned police work. In fact, German intelligence hindered their investigations by holding back crucial information due to this old thinking "I'm the secret agent here and all I'm doing is more secret than anything else" just like you see in bad movies.

It doesn't justify taking away our civil rights so many people have given their lifes for and enacting laws that are frighteningly reminding of times we had hoped have finally ended for good in 1990.

It really is a slippery slope, and it's far too easy to get off the path.
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Old 01-01-2008, 04:35 PM   #37
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Originally posted by INDY500


I would hope that both the U.S. president and the German chancellor put saving lives and national defense above all other considerations.
Why not take it a step further and just lock up all Muslims?
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Old 01-01-2008, 04:42 PM   #38
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Originally posted by phillyfan26
Is it not a slippery slope, INDY?
What isn't a slippery slope?

After we entered WWII and defeated the Nazis in Europe and the Japanese Imperial army in the Pacific...what was to stop our "war machine" from continuing on? Really...why aren't we living in the United States of Earth.
Who could have stopped us? Our allies in Europe were decimated, Russia was broke and had lost 10 million soldiers, Canada was, well, Canada.

We had "the bomb" and no one else did!! The world was our slippery slope. But we sent the soldiers home and went about rebuilding war torn Europe and Japan.

Maybe, just maybe, good can defeat evil without becoming evil itself. Maybe a country can protect it's citizens and respect their rights at the same time.
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Old 01-01-2008, 04:46 PM   #39
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Why not take it a step further and just lock up all Muslims?
You aren't going to answer the question are you?

Was the act of crashing hijacked commercial airliners into America's financial district and the Pentagon;

A) A domestic military strike
or
B) A civil crime
or maybe you need
C) an inside job

Answer the question or meet my "friends."
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Old 01-01-2008, 04:49 PM   #40
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Originally posted by INDY500
Maybe, just maybe, good can defeat evil without becoming evil itself. Maybe a country can protect it's citizens and respect their rights at the same time.
That's what I'm looking for. I'm sure it's possible.
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