Bono: What's always bothered me about the fundamentalists is

[Irvine511]

No, I didn't "shop around with the fear of hell in mind", I received what I believe was a calling of the Holy Spirit, and I responded in the affirmative.

The fear of hell is NOT more important than the love of my fellow person. If I do "good works" it is not as any kind of "investment". If I do any good work at all, it is "not I who do it, but Christ who lives in me that does it"(thanks, Paul of Tarsus, for that quote).

My Christianity and my love for my fellow man are not mutually exclusive at all. It is in fact, it is Christ's love and compassion of my fellow man that lives in me that fuels my own love and compassion for my fellow man and influences me to tell people how to go to Heaven and escape hell.

If I didn't have compassion and love for my fellow man, if I didn't care about others' eternity, why would I be even expressing my beliefs that all nonbelievers will go to hell? Wouldn't it be easier for me to just let people believe what they want, without offering my own opinions? It would be easier on me, as I am usually rebuked by nonbelievers for being "narrow-minded and self-righteous".

If I didn't care, I wouldn't tell about Jesus. Period.

so, really, it is all about hell? you love people enough to warn them about how to get away from it? is hell really that bad? what's it like? is it something to be escaped? is a child on the streets of Calcutta who perhaps dies young and never hears of Jesus Christ going to burn in hell alongside Jeffery Dahmer?

 

[80sU2isBest]

Dreadsox, I have stated before that I don't like it that many "Christians" seem to focus all their sin-energy on homosexuality than other sins. In fact, I have even said that I think adultery is worse than homosexuality, but many of the same people who are into the whole "hate on homosexuals" thing are committing that sin regularly.

For teh record, when I am presenting the Gospel t someone, I never focus on individual or specified sins. But I do stress that all people are guilty of sin and are therefore in need of a way to be redeemed and adopted into God's family. If I am to be effective, I have to bring up sin so that people will see their need for a savior. I know that if I thought I was good enough to make it into Heaven on my own, I wuldn't put my trust in Christ; If I was that good, there'd be no need for a savior.

 

[80sU2isBest]

so, really, it is all about hell? you love people enough to warn them about how to get away from it? is hell really that bad? what's it like? is it something to be escaped? is a child on the streets of Calcutta who perhaps dies young and never hears of Jesus Christ going to burn in hell alongside Jeffery Dahmer?

It's not all about hell. I want people to have, as Christ said, "Life and life more abundantly" here AND in the afterlife. And yes, hell is REALLY that bad. I don't know the specifics of hell for absolute certain except one thing: it is separation from God. And that is worse than ANYTHING I can imagine. And yes, it is something to be escaped, but my belief is only through Christ.

As for the person who dies never having heard of Christ, my belief is that he will not automatically go to hell. He will be judged by Christ under different standards of judgment. My reason for this belief is mainly when Christ told the Pharisees that "if you were blind, you would not be guilty, but since you say you see, your guilt remains".

 

[Irvine511]

It's not all about hell. I want people to have, as Christ said, "Life and life more abundantly" here AND in the afterlife. And yes, hell is REALLY that bad. I don't know the specifics of hell for absolute certain except one thing: it is separation from God. And that is worse than ANYTHING I can imagine. And yes, it is something to be escaped, but my belief is only through Christ.

As for the person who dies never having heard of Christ, my belief is that he will not automatically go to hell. He will be judged by Christ under different standards of judgment. My reason for this belief is mainly when Christ told the Pharisees that "if you were blind, you would not be guilty, but since you say you see, your guilt remains".

do you think english translations of the bible are designed to give followers an "out" when their beliefs lead them to very ugly places? i.e., the child in Calcutta.

 

[80sU2isBest]

do you think english translations of the bible are designed to give followers an "out" when their beliefs lead them to very ugly places? i.e., the child in Calcutta.

No, I sure don't. I believe that what Christ was recorded as saying and what Paul was recorded as saying regarding these issues were part of the original text, not invented by translators. The Bible says nothing specifically and outright about what happens to people who have never heard of Christ, but there certain verses that can lead the earnest students of scripture into forming opinions that have basis in scriptural context.

 

[Irvine511]

No, I sure don't. I believe that what Christ was recorded as saying and what Paul was recorded as saying regarding these issues were part of the original text, not invented by translators. The Bible says nothing specifically and outright about what happens to people who have never heard of Christ, but there certain verses that can lead the earnest students of scripture into forming opinions that have basis in scriptural context.

so you can conjecture, but you can't ever really know? shouldn't this humility then apply across the board, that it's all about faith and not about fact?

 

[Liesje]

is a child on the streets of Calcutta who perhaps dies young and never hears of Jesus Christ going to burn in hell alongside Jeffery Dahmer?

Heh....this is why us Calvinist conveniently have the doctrines of General and Special revelation.

 

[Irvine511]

Heh....this is why us Calvinist conveniently have the doctrines of General and Special revelation.

those self-perpetuating, self-referential belief systems ... sneaky, sneaky.

 

[80sU2isBest]

so you can conjecture, but you can't ever really know? shouldn't this humility then apply across the board, that it's all about faith and not about fact?

Irvine, read my posts on this, and you will see that always I use the words "I believe".

 

[Dreadsox]

Thank goodness for grace....that is all I can say!

 

[Ft. Worth Frog]

Just to add a little to what 80s is saying...Though Jesus and some of the apostles mention hell, it is never given as a reason to follow Him. We should want to follow Him out of love, not fear. It always turns me off when preachers use Hell as a conversion tactic because Jesus never did that.

About focus on sin, I have attended many "fundamentalist" churches and rarely heard sermons on sex. The preachers I have seen kicked out left not over sexual problems but over money problems or something similar.

 

[Irvine511]

Irvine, read my posts on this, and you will see that always I use the words "I believe".

is that incompatible with the question i was posing? i meant to speak broadly, and in regards to fundamentalists, not solely to 80sU2isBest.

 

[sharky]

Going back to Bono's quote, this is quite interesting and wondering if someone can shed a little more light. I was watching one of those political morning shows on Sunday and they revisited an issue that Benedict [Ratzinger] supported -- that is, politicians who are pro-choice and pro-gay marriage should sit down with their parish priest and, if they do not agree to go along with the church teachings, should not receive communion.

So my question is what is a sin that should be punishable by not receiving holy communion? I guess my problem is that I believe there are bigger issues than abortion and gay marriage in the church that I would focus on before those. For example, is a priest abusing a child worse than getting an abortion? If so, why are those who helped to hide the abuse not barred from communion? And what about the priests who helped in the slaughter of people in Rwanda -- is that support for people who commit genocide worse than abortion or gay marriage?

I guess the big issue I find in this case is that at least the Catholic church seems to be more obsessed with sex than what I consider more important issues and more obsessed with being AGAINST abortion than being FOR life -- life of those persecuted, life of those starving, life of those who are orphaned. Imagine if the energy expended to fight abortion in this country was instead used to protect Christian who are being killed in Sudan.

80s -- You brought up some interesting points, but what gets you into Hell? Which sins do you recognize as little sins and which sins do you recognize as Hell sins? Not trying to fight you, but I think one thing about this quote from Bono is that he is talking about the darker sins that don't get the splashy headlines...would these be sins that you would consider as a reason to go to Hell BEFORE abortion or gay marriage or are they all included in one big ball?

 

[80sU2isBest]

80s -- You brought up some interesting points, but what gets you into Hell? Which sins do you recognize as little sins and which sins do you recognize as Hell sins? Not trying to fight you, but I think one thing about this quote from Bono is that he is talking about the darker sins that don't get the splashy headlines...would these be sins that you would consider as a reason to go to Hell BEFORE abortion or gay marriage or are they all included in one big ball?

I've stated it before, but you may not have read those, so I'll say it again.

Any unforgiven sin sends you to hell. Any. God cannot abide in the presence of sin, so a person must be found "not guilty" in order to get to Heaven. The only way to be found "not guilty" is by being washed clean in the blood of Christ.

All unforgiven sin will keep you out of heaven, so on that level, all sins are as bad as each other. However, there are sins that reap a more serious earthly consequence than others, and that I believe God abhors more than others.

 

[Dreadsox]

[Q]What's always bothered me about the fundamentalists is that they seem preoccupied with the most obvious sins. If those sins, sexual immorality and drug addiction, come out of unhappiness, then I am sure God wants to set people free of that unhappiness. But I couldn't figure out why the same people were never questioning the deeper, slyer problems of the human spirit like self-righteousness, judgementalism, institutional greed, corporate greed.You only have to look to unfair trade agreements that keep the developing world inthe Dark Ages to see the hypocrisy I'm talking about. These people talk about debasing a culture. What about the debasing of hundreds of thousands of real lives.[/Q]

When thinking about sin, is it more sinful to sit by and watch African's die by telling them not to use condom's?

Which is the greater sin, having the sex, or telling them using a condom will put them at odds with the church?

 

[Dreadsox]

One thing 80's and Bono agree on is that Christ was sacraficed for our sins....when I can pry the book from my wife's sleeping fingers I will get the quote up here.

Peace

 

[Irvine511]

When thinking about sin, is it more sinful to sit by and watch African's die by telling them not to use condom's?

Which is the greater sin, having the sex, or telling them using a condom will put them at odds with the church? [/B]

bravo, Dread.

i'm quite certain that God knows that AIDS is worse than condoms, and that birth control is better than overpopulation, and that the only way to get people out of crippling poverty is to empower women with control over how and when they get pregnant.

you'd think that with the gift of free will would come an understanding of the need for pragmatism and rationality.

 

[nbcrusader]

When thinking about sin, is it more sinful to sit by and watch African's die by telling them not to use condom's?

Which is the greater sin, having the sex, or telling them using a condom will put them at odds with the church?

Isn't this ranking sin a different way?

 

[80sU2isBest]

Isn't this ranking sin a different way?

It's only wrong when conservatives do it; didn't anyone ever tell you that?

Dreadsox, that was not aimed at you.

 

[Irvine511]

Isn't this ranking sin a different way?

Dread's example then begs the question -- perhaps sin should be ranked. God might not, but perhaps we have to in order to combat a greater evil, AIDS.

 

[melon]

Isn't this ranking sin a different way?

Sin is already ranked. Some just admit it more than others.

I made this analogy about "communism" versus "capitalism." Communism blatantly tells you that the government owns your land. Capitalism tells you that you do own your land, but if you don't pay your "property taxes" ("rent"), the government takes it away. Even then, it still has full "eminent domain" rights for cheap. So tell me, in the end, how is that any different from communism?

Religion is the same way. Despite all the Christian bickering and how evangelicals / fundamentalists will argue that they're so much different than Catholicism, the fact remains that they're essentially the same. Catholicism is the blunt one, flat out telling you that your works matter, while evangelical Christianity tip-toes around the issue, saying originally that it's faith, not works for salvation, but then goes on "moral outrage" tirades against certain groups of people, and then claiming that their works are going to send them to hell by arguing that they don't have "enough faith."

And as for saying that "all sin" is the same, it's clear that they focus on only one kind of sin: the sins of "the Other." This kind of Christianity that Bono is railing against is nothing but a gigantic masturbatory session where they get to pride themselves on how "great they are," and how "bad others are."

So many exceptions have already been made for the "majority" in this nation. Despite Jesus' condemnations of divorce, the KJV oh-so-conveniently mistranslates "porneia," and, suddenly, despite more than half a dozen blatant passages against divorce in the NT, people latch onto one (sometimes two, depending on the translation) mistranslation found only within Protestant Bibles.

And then all the "greed" doctrines that simultaneously arose with the rise of Biblical fundamentalism in the 19th century and extending to the present. Jesus says it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than to reach the Kingdom of Heaven, then spends a lot of time talking about helping the poor. Yet, these "greed" theologies not only tell you that Jesus wants you to be as rich as can be, but that the poor deserve to be poor. Talk about a theological leap!

That's all modern religion is about: gross self-righteousness and judgmentalism against everyone that doesn't fit in with their hegemony. In this regard, the Pharisees never died, and it makes you ask whether Jesus' "First Coming" was for nothing. It appears that humanity learned nothing the first time around. These kind of Christians will never help against HIV/AIDS, because only "the Other" gets AIDS, whether it's those dirty sinful homosexuals or black people in Africa. God's chosen white American Christians don't get AIDS, remember?

Melon

 

[melon]

 

[80sU2isBest]

Hve you guys ever stopped to realize that a large, and I mean very large, percentage of the organizations that help poor people by feeding them, clothing them, helping them build shelter are run by Christians?

 

[80sU2isBest]

Sin is already ranked. Some just admit it more than others.

I made this analogy about "communism" versus "capitalism." Communism blatantly tells you that the government owns your land. Capitalism tells you that you do own your land, but if you don't pay your "property taxes" ("rent"), the government takes it away. Even then, it still has full "eminent domain" rights for cheap. So tell me, in the end, how is that any different from communism?

Religion is the same way. Despite all the Christian bickering and how evangelicals / fundamentalists will argue that they're so much different than Catholicism, the fact remains that they're essentially the same. Catholicism is the blunt one, flat out telling you that your works matter, while evangelical Christianity tip-toes around the issue, saying originally that it's faith, not works for salvation, but then goes on "moral outrage" tirades against certain groups of people, and then claiming that their works are going to send them to hell by arguing that they don't have "enough faith."

And as for saying that "all sin" is the same, it's clear that they focus on only one kind of sin: the sins of "the Other." This kind of Christianity that Bono is railing against is nothing but a gigantic masturbatory session where they get to pride themselves on how "great they are," and how "bad others are."

So many exceptions have already been made for the "majority" in this nation. Despite Jesus' condemnations of divorce, the KJV oh-so-conveniently mistranslates "porneia," and, suddenly, despite more than half a dozen blatant passages against divorce in the NT, people latch onto one (sometimes two, depending on the translation) mistranslation found only within Protestant Bibles.

And then all the "greed" doctrines that simultaneously arose with the rise of Biblical fundamentalism in the 19th century and extending to the present. Jesus says it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than to reach the Kingdom of Heaven, then spends a lot of time talking about helping the poor. Yet, these "greed" theologies not only tell you that Jesus wants you to be as rich as can be, but that the poor deserve to be poor. Talk about a theological leap!

That's all modern religion is about: gross self-righteousness and judgmentalism against everyone that doesn't fit in with their hegemony. In this regard, the Pharisees never died, and it makes you ask whether Jesus' "First Coming" was for nothing. It appears that humanity learned nothing the first time around. These kind of Christians will never help against HIV/AIDS, because only "the Other" gets AIDS, whether it's those dirty sinful homosexuals or black people in Africa. God's chosen white American Christians don't get AIDS, remember?

Melon

Melon, you obviously don't know any of my Christian friends. Not one. In fact, I can say that based on the above post, you are basing your stance against evangelicals on the "loud and proud" few. The normal Christians don't make the news, they don't make headlines. But these normal Christians are the ones working in the soup lines, at the shelters, on the streets, giving to, supporting and even founding world relief programs like World Vision, Feed The Children, Compassion Internation, etc.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Religion is the same way. Despite all the Christian bickering and how evangelicals / fundamentalists will argue that they're so much different than Catholicism, the fact remains that they're essentially the same. Catholicism is the blunt one, flat out telling you that your works matter, while evangelical Christianity tip-toes around the issue, saying originally that it's faith, not works for salvation, but then goes on "moral outrage" tirades against certain groups of people, and then claiming that their works are going to send them to hell by arguing that they don't have "enough faith."

Not the Christians I know, Melon. Every Christian I know believes in grace and faith. Period. But just because we're saved doesn't give people a license to commit any sin they want. Did Christ tell the woman caught in adiltery "Neither do I condemn you, go and be at peace"? No, he told her "Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more". Like I've said before, when I witness about Christ, I do not bring up individual or certain sins, but I do talk about the braod sense of the word "sin". It is essential that people face their own sin, or they will never see the need for a savior.

 

[BostonAnne]

Our church was raising awareness for the hungry last Sunday morning. One Pastor challenged the other to write a sermon about the forgotten passage - Luke 16:19-31 - The Rich Man and Lazarus. We were told that the passages sent to follow for weekly services never include this passage - as it is so in your face clear and scary. We will be judged on how we treat the poor and when it comes time for heaven the poor is first.

Luke 16

She did a great job with it, and basically said that even though members of our church supply food for the food pantry, cook and serve at a soup kitchen or walks for hunger raising money - it still isn't enough. What needs to change is our attitude towards those lesser off. It ends up following the same line of thinking as what Bono is trying to do. Token generosity isn't solving the problems - the poor are still poor. There is tons of food being thrown out every day yet millions of people go to sleep hungry. Why is that?

 

[LeafsNation]

As unpopular as the idea is, I'm not going to sugar coat what the Bible says. According to the Bible, anyone who ultimately rejects Christ will go to hell. You need to know this, as does everyone.

Not even my own church, the Catholic church, takes that nonsensical view anymore (including the conservative Pope Benedict or JP2)

So you're saying that someone in Sunni Saudi Arabia who has never been exposed to Christianity in any way shape or form are going to hell, even though they believe in God?

I guess in your book one has to be a Christian to experience God's devine mercy....oh but I forgot, according to your fundamentalist logic (which many evangelical Protestants share), I'm a Catholic, not a Christian, so I'm going to hell with all my Papist brothers and sisters too.


Shame......

 

[Anthony]

LeafsNation;

Its not polite to call someone's religious views 'nonsensical', or any other name for that matter. You seem to have a valid point, but please try to be respectful. If everyone can remember that as the thread continues, that would be great.


Ant.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Not even my own church, the Catholic church, takes that nonsensical view anymore (including the conservative Pope Benedict or JP2)

So you're saying that someone in Sunni Saudi Arabia who has never been exposed to Christianity in any way shape or form are going to hell, even though they believe in God?

I guess in your book one has to be a Christian to experience God's devine mercy....oh but I forgot, according to your fundamentalist logic (which many evangelical Protestants share), I'm a Catholic, not a Christian, so I'm going to hell with all my Papist brothers and sisters too.


Shame......

You obviously haven't been reading my posts, have you? I have said more than once that I do not believe that people who have never heard of Christ necessarily go to hell.

Even in the post you quote, I used the word "reject", didn't I? How can someone reject something they've never heard?

And don't say it's "in my book". It's in the Bible. I suggest you read it, and you'll see that Christ says himself that he is the only way to the Father and that only those who believe in him will enter the kingdom. Now, I leave room open for deathbed conversions, special relevation, whatever. I believe God's patience is almost unlimited in that respect; I think he'll keep on trying. But the Bible does say that if you ultimately reject Christ, you will not go to Heaven.

Frankly, this is ridiculous. I get tired of people who know nothing about my views attacking me in such a way, especially when my views are on public display for all to see.

 

[80sU2isBest]

LeafsNation;

Its not polite to call someone's religious views 'nonsensical', or any other name for that matter. You seem to have a valid point, but please try to be respectful. If everyone can remember that as the thread continues, that would be great.


Ant.

Thanks Anthony. If LeafsNation had taken a little time to get acquainted with my actual views, h might have found no reason to insult me.