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Old 06-08-2008, 05:14 AM   #81
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hehe, hate to say it, but what Bono said just a perfect evidence for what my African friend told me: Westerners have no respect to Africa people, and they want to make their version of Africa, not African people's version of Africa.

Bono, did people in Africa said they want to be another America?
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Old 06-08-2008, 08:11 AM   #82
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Bono, did people in Africa said they want to be another America?
Just because he includes the words ' United states of... ' you think Bono wants another America ? Americans dont have a monopoly over those words.
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Old 06-08-2008, 08:17 AM   #83
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Just because he includes the words ' United states of... ' you think Bono wants another America ? Americans dont have a monopoly over those words.
No, regardless it's United States of "America" or "India" or "Iceland", the point is that he has not right on planning the future for Africa. What he said is very offensive.
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Old 06-08-2008, 09:59 AM   #84
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hehe, hate to say it, but what Bono said just a perfect evidence for what my African friend told me: Westerners have no respect to Africa people, and they want to make their version of Africa, not African people's version of Africa.
Lest you forget, China has its claws dug into Africa, as well.

China's Influence in Africa: Implications for the United States

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In recent years, Beijing has identified the African continent as an area of significant economic and strategic interest. America and its allies and friends are finding that their vision of a prosperous Africa governed by democracies that respect human rights and the rule of law and that embrace free markets is being challenged by the escalating Chinese influence in Africa.

The People’s Republic of China (PRC) aids and abets oppressive and destitute African dictatorships by legitimizing their misguided policies and praising their development models as suited to individual national conditions. Beijing holds out China’s unique development model—significant economic growth overseen by a disciplined, one-party totalitarian state with full authority, if not control, over all aspects of economic activity—as an example for others to emulate.

Moreover, China rewards its African friends with diplomatic attention and financial and military assistance, exacerbating existing forced dislocations of populations and abetting massive human rights abuses in troubled countries such as Sudan and Zimbabwe. As a consequence, Chinese support for political and economic repression in Africa counters the liberalizing influences of Africa’s traditional European and American partners. China’s vigorous campaign to develop close ties with individual African nations also reflects Beijing’s global quest to isolate Taiwan diplomatically (seven of the 26 countries that have full diplomatic relations with Taiwan are African).

The most pernicious effect of the renewed Chinese interest in Africa is that China is legitimizing and encouraging Africa’s most repressive regimes, thereby increasing the likelihood of weak and failed states. The United States must also be alert to the potential long-term disruption of American access to important raw materials and energy sources as these resources are “locked up” by Chinese firms for the PRC’s domestic market to maintain China’s economic growth.
Putting aside, for a moment, the fact that this article was written as an outline of what America should do for American interests, it certainly outlines the fact that China's interest in Africa is certainly not charitable, nor in the interest of Africans itself.
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Old 06-08-2008, 10:25 AM   #85
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No, regardless it's United States of "America" or "India" or "Iceland", the point is that he has not right on planning the future for Africa. What he said is very offensive.
Hardly offensive, he's not even planning anything. He's not even in a position to implement any change.
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Old 06-08-2008, 12:27 PM   #86
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Lest you forget, China has its claws dug into Africa, as well.

China's Influence in Africa: Implications for the United States



Putting aside, for a moment, the fact that this article was written as an outline of what America should do for American interests, it certainly outlines the fact that China's interest in Africa is certainly not charitable, nor in the interest of Africans itself.
I guess this is what the problem come from. I have never heard any one from China who came back from Africa say Africa needs charity, they often say that Africa need to develop social infrastructure and modern social system. Africa people needs schools, hospitals, football stadium. Chinese companies went to Africa to do business, not charity. Africa countries are our business partner, not our dependent.

If Bono could stop America from burning food for biofuel, I think he already solved the hunger in Africa, ironic, isn't it?

America certainly did alot more charity to Africa than China ever did in history. (at least that's what the western media made it looks like) Yes, China runs to Africa for the resources...blah, blah..Yes, China is the bad guy, and China received RMB4,000 donation (about $5714) from Mozambique, one of the world's poorest country, in the Sichuan earthquake, it's about 1% of the country's total GDP (2005). That's because China did too much bad thing to Africa, so the people wanted to help the bad guy? How much Mozambique donated to America for the Katrina?

Bono is a good person, it doesn't mean all he did/said was approperite.

BTW, China is the biggest importer of Sudan's oil, and China doesn't have troop in Sudan to kill Sudan people, and Chinese government doesn't control Sudan's oil money either. We have long way to go to catch up with some country, don't you think so?
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Old 06-08-2008, 12:42 PM   #87
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Putting aside, for a moment, the fact that this article was written as an outline of what America should do for American interests, it certainly outlines the fact that China's interest in Africa is certainly not charitable, nor in the interest of Africans itself.
That article's from the Heritage Foundation. Attacks on Western oil assets in Africa (Nigeria) are far more common than attacks on Chinese oil assets. The American oil companies do not really make arrangements that benefit economically the countries they operate in. The Chinese, on the other hand, help to develop infrastructure in countries like Angola which is a large oil exporter for them. This type of "South-South cooperation" is considered a threat by many in developed nations.
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Old 06-08-2008, 03:40 PM   #88
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I guess this is what the problem come from. I have never heard any one from China who came back from Africa say Africa needs charity, they often say that Africa need to develop social infrastructure and modern social system. Africa people needs schools, hospitals, football stadium. Chinese companies went to Africa to do business, not charity. Africa countries are our business partner, not our dependent.
Yes, China does go in to do business, and all that entails. Apparently, that includes selling arms to repressive governments like Zimbabwe, whose leader, Robert Mugabe, has done more to starve his own people through sheer incompetence than any notion of biofuels.

I am not here for the mere purpose of bashing China and exalting the U.S. I am here to call for nuance. Nationalism, of any kind, concerns me, and I know that there is considerable Chinese nationalism currently. Couple this with an inherently non-free government that does not have a great track record with dissent (i.e., Tienanmen Square in 1989, for an easy example) and the worldwide damage Bush has inflicted on the American reputation, and I think it is very easy gloss over any and all imperfections, in favor of unquestioning patriotic nationalism--not just in China, but elsewhere worldwide.

Africa, frankly, has turned into the new global tug-of-war, and the superpowers of the world, both de facto and "wannabe," are using Africa to fuel their growth. I do not believe that U.S., Chinese, Russian, or Indian interest in Africa is at all the same as the interests of Africans. It about each nation's own respective cravings for oil and other minerals, which are becoming increasingly valuable and scarce in the modern world. To decry American activities in Africa, while simultaneously exalting Chinese activities in Africa, screams to me of self-interest.

I agree very much that Africa needs a developed infrastructure--which is what very many Western economists have stated too for years. That's why Bono's charity overtures are not going over as well as they have in the past. To argue that only the Chinese are (supposedly) interested in building Africa's infrastructure is misinformed.
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Old 06-08-2008, 08:23 PM   #89
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Yes, China does go in to do business, and all that entails. Apparently, that includes selling arms to repressive governments like Zimbabwe, whose leader, Robert Mugabe, has done more to starve his own people through sheer incompetence than any notion of biofuels.

I am not here for the mere purpose of bashing China and exalting the U.S. I am here to call for nuance. Nationalism, of any kind, concerns me, and I know that there is considerable Chinese nationalism currently. Couple this with an inherently non-free government that does not have a great track record with dissent (i.e., Tienanmen Square in 1989, for an easy example) and the worldwide damage Bush has inflicted on the American reputation, and I think it is very easy gloss over any and all imperfections, in favor of unquestioning patriotic nationalism--not just in China, but elsewhere worldwide.
Africa, frankly, has turned into the new global tug-of-war, and the superpowers of the world, both de facto and "wannabe," are using Africa to fuel their growth. I do not believe that U.S., Chinese, Russian, or Indian interest in Africa is at all the same as the interests of Africans. It about each nation's own respective cravings for oil and other minerals, which are becoming increasingly valuable and scarce in the modern world. To decry American activities in Africa, while simultaneously exalting Chinese activities in Africa, screams to me of self-interest.

I agree very much that Africa needs a developed infrastructure--which is what very many Western economists have stated too for years. That's why Bono's charity overtures are not going over as well as they have in the past. To argue that only the Chinese are (supposedly) interested in building Africa's infrastructure is misinformed.
I believe you are coming with a good will for Africa and majority people in the rest of the world.

About the Chinese nationalism, I have discussed it in another thread sometimes ago, in this forum. The definition of "nationalism" in Chinese culture is completely different to the west. China initially was a united state of many different kingdoms and people from many different culture background, you could see it as an much better developed version of EU, only we did it 2500 years ago, and carried the process through the history. The world "China" in Chinese has never been the name of the country until the last century. Unless you have completely understood the what & why question about that part of the culture history, I don't think you qualifying in given any criticism to another culture.

I have never said China is the only country who build infrastructure for Africa. As I said before, America sure have contributed a lot in Africa's development, but the question is how it was done, it's the problem of the attitude towards the land, and it's people. Remeber what Bono said? "Africa people don't need charity, they need justice." I laughed when I first heard it. Don't get me wrong, it's a good term, and I agree with him in some extent, but it still has the the "how to" problem, and an unfair attitude. Have you ever heard anything like "one nation had brought justice to another nation", when they actually in the competitive condition? Sorry, I'd say Africa's got luck, only because the piece of land is too big, the culture is too "scary" to the western world since a lot of African coutries are Islamic, the infrastructure is too bad, the west's history in Africa is too ugly, therefore Africa haven't got invaded again like Iraq. What's the same in Bono's term for "charity" and "justice"? They all have to be GIVEN by the west. Therefore, if the west doesn't nod, African people could have no charity, nor justice. Funny isn't it? When he also said every one is equal.

As for Bono, criticism is one thing, but I don't want to pull back any of his effort, since it comes from a good will.
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Old 06-08-2008, 09:05 PM   #90
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Lest you forget, China has its claws dug into Africa, as well.

China's Influence in Africa: Implications for the United States



Putting aside, for a moment, the fact that this article was written as an outline of what America should do for American interests, it certainly outlines the fact that China's interest in Africa is certainly not charitable, nor in the interest of Africans itself.

I'm in agreement with what the article say regarding Chinas interest in Africa. The country has only one charitable interest going on and that is with itself.

I also understand what Bono's thought was and I don't think it should be taken as a grievance, the main theory of his "utopia plan" is to have all the rulers outsted and set of government on the concept of the United States with one person leading the entire continent.

And when I mean utopia, I think its a plan that would never really come into existence.
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Old 06-09-2008, 10:33 AM   #91
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the main theory of his "utopia plan" is to have all the rulers outsted and set of government on the concept of the United States with one person leading the entire continent.

wow... i think you're reading way too much into that...

do you realise what you're saying?! "all the rulers ousted"?! as if!!!

trying saying that to Mugabe!!!

so many issues at stake there with your interpretation... not to mention sovereignty and the fact that Africa is made up of different countries, different cultural entities, different languages...

why would the continent of Africa want to be modelled on the concept of the United States of America where forty-seven million people don't even have access to health cover?

sorry... steaming here!
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:06 PM   #92
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wow... i think you're reading way too much into that...

do you realise what you're saying?! "all the rulers ousted"?! as if!!!

trying saying that to Mugabe!!!

so many issues at stake there with your interpretation... not to mention sovereignty and the fact that Africa is made up of different countries, different cultural entities, different languages...

why would the continent of Africa want to be modelled on the concept of the United States of America where forty-seven million people don't even have access to health cover?

sorry... steaming here!
I didn't say it...it's Bonos plan!
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:08 PM   #93
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wow... i think you're reading way too much into that...

do you realise what you're saying?! "all the rulers ousted"?! as if!!!

trying saying that to Mugabe!!!

so many issues at stake there with your interpretation... not to mention sovereignty and the fact that Africa is made up of different countries, different cultural entities, different languages...

why would the continent of Africa want to be modelled on the concept of the United States of America where forty-seven million people don't even have access to health cover?

sorry... steaming here!
and the fact that Africa is made up of ...., different cultural entities, different languages...

^ So is the US.

And I didn't say or suggest the proposed plan...it's Bonos theory!
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Old 06-12-2008, 03:07 PM   #94
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No one is talking about kicking out all the African leaders and making the whole continent one country. This is not what Bono is saying. Of course I am not in his head and cannot know exactly what he has in mind, but it seems obvious he is refering to a very important historical and political movement, namely pan-africanism, which encompasses a large range of ideas and opinions about greater political and economic, as well as cultural, integration among African countries. Integration does not necessarily equal complete loss of national sovereignty. And once again, this is NOT 'Bono's idea', he is merely giving credence to an idea that has been around for decades in and out of Africa and will continue to be in a world were increased regional cooperation and integration is becoming the norm.
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Old 06-12-2008, 03:17 PM   #95
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Yep.

Thank god for not letting the people decide.

Thank god for having a political elite that will decide things for us!

(Did you even think before you posted the utter drivel that you posted? )
how is letting the people we elect do their business equal to not letting "the people" decide?
these referendum also have 30% of the population voting while the other 70% was too busy watching reruns of Knight Rider

you are one offensive dude though
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Old 06-12-2008, 03:28 PM   #96
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how is letting the people we elect do their business equal to not letting "the people" decide?
these referendum also have 30% of the population voting while the other 70% was too busy watching reruns of Knight Rider

you are one offensive dude though
Ah, another Eurofederalist.
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Old 06-12-2008, 03:44 PM   #97
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Ah, another Eurofederalist.
i thought, you being a finance guy and all, you would acknowledge the need for a united europe if any of the european countries wants to play a roll in world economics in years to come

my post was more focussed on the ludicrous situation that we elect people who spend years preparing a plan that gets veto'd by 25% of a population who don't know what they talk about
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Old 06-12-2008, 03:56 PM   #98
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i thought, you being a finance guy and all, you would acknowledge the need for a united europe if any of the european countries wants to play a roll in world economics in years to come

The politically united Europe that the federalists wish for has nothing got to do with free trade or economic power, really and truly, absolutely nothing.

But, for the sake of argument, let's look at this idea you have that European countries must sacrifice their sovereignty in order to compete economically. Well, we don't have to look too far to find a small country that does alright for itself economically without feeling any need to be part of a vast political block - I speak of Switzerland. Further afield, what about Canada? New Zealand? Australia? Malaysia? All successful, small to smallish countries that don't feel the need to be part of a huge unaccountable bureaucratic powerbloc.

Incidentally, in my country, even the pro-Treaty of Lisbon campaigners don't tend to use the political and economic power go hand in hand argument, because they know that it is fundamentally weak.
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Old 06-12-2008, 04:05 PM   #99
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The politically united Europe that the federalists wish for has nothing got to do with free trade or economic power, really and truly, absolutely nothing.
unity is about getting a truck to go from our factory in Breda, The Netherlands to Barcelona, Spain without it having to deal with 3 kinds of legislation

it's about me sending invoices out to Rumania, Italy and Belgium and not having to deal with different legislation on what information should appear on the invoice

it's about a company not needing to fill in 4 different form to get their VAT back just because they deal with several countries

and to create this unity you need political unity
the ghost stories of having to give up your national identity are ridiculous and have no actual foundation whatsoever
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Old 06-13-2008, 05:58 PM   #100
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unity is about getting a truck to go from our factory in Breda, The Netherlands to Barcelona, Spain without it having to deal with 3 kinds of legislation

it's about me sending invoices out to Rumania, Italy and Belgium and not having to deal with different legislation on what information should appear on the invoice

it's about a company not needing to fill in 4 different form to get their VAT back just because they deal with several countries

and to create this unity you need political unity
the ghost stories of having to give up your national identity are ridiculous and have no actual foundation whatsoever
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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