Bono gets in shouting match at TED conference

[LyricalDrug]

Heheh -- give those Stanford conservatives hell, B-man!

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/editors/17618/

 

[CTU2fan]

Bollocks indeed.

 

[Canadiens1131]

From an economist's standpoint, Bono's not entirely right, but from any other standpoint

Bono for the motherfucking win yehaaaaa

 

[financeguy]

Bono's ego has assumed such gigantic proportions that he cannot even listen to a contrary viewpoint without shouting it down!

Sad, really.

 

[CTU2fan]

What you call ego I call passion...debate is nice but look at it from Bono's point of view. He's going around trying to raise this aid, so people won't die, and here's some cat saying the aid is hurting Africa. I think it's a fair argument to make, in the abstract, but in reality that aid is keeping people alive, and this guy says it's a bad thing?

If I were Bono I'd shout too...it must be nice to be well off enough to make an argument that feeding the hungry or treating the ill is a bad thing. Something tells me if the guy were starving and/or dying of malaria he might feel differently.

 

[anitram]

He may be passionate, but he's partly (and maybe significantly) wrong here. There are a number of educated, intelligent and thoughtful African economists who completely disagree with Bono's assessment of this apparent growing prosperity and so on. My family who live in two African countries also think that he's looking at it through rose-coloured glasses.

But of course, that's something like heresy on this site.

 

[JCOSTER]

Bono is trying to say in a round about way, that even though there is prosperity, there are still people trying to survive and that the prosperity that is taking place is not going to save everyone. Therefore, Bullocks.

 

[CTU2fan]

He may be passionate, but he's partly (and maybe significantly) wrong here. There are a number of educated, intelligent and thoughtful African economists who completely disagree with Bono's assessment of this apparent growing prosperity and so on. My family who live in two African countries also think that he's looking at it through rose-coloured glasses.

But of course, that's something like heresy on this site.

Some things to consider here. It's very possible that among certain segments of the population there is growing prosperity. The people Bono focuses on, though, are the poorest of the poor, and I seriously doubt they're "moving on up".

Also Africa is a big place...what's going on in one African country is I'm sure far different from another. I think people tend to seriously generalize when they talk about "Africa".

Edit: Not disagreeing with you anitram, I just really think there's more to it than Bono or the economists who oppose his views are saying. And yes, opposing B on this issue is borderline heresy around here

 

[redhotswami]

I'm no economist...I took those courses many years ago, so please don't base the following on my intelligence or understanding of the world...my area of specialization is something else.

but...perhaps somebody can clarify for me:

would investing in business really effect those stuck in extreme poverty? wouldn't that just perpetuate the gap between extremely poor and everyone else? i can definitely see the business benefiting from international investment...but i'm wondering if the extreme poor would benefit at all. but then again, isn't that the notion behind edun?? so maybe it takes a little bit of both? and i really think it is rather ignorant to say that 30 years of aid have done nothing at all. that is just too general of a statement.

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

That doesn't really qualify as a shouting match, does it?

 

[ntalwar]

I think Bono was opposing the viewpoint that aid to the poorest is unnecessary, not that investment is unnecessary. Both can coexist.

 

[all_i_want]

I'm no economist...I took those courses many years ago, so please don't base the following on my intelligence or understanding of the world...my area of specialization is something else.

but...perhaps somebody can clarify for me:

would investing in business really effect those stuck in extreme poverty? wouldn't that just perpetuate the gap between extremely poor and everyone else? i can definitely see the business benefiting from international investment...but i'm wondering if the extreme poor would benefit at all. but then again, isn't that the notion behind edun?? so maybe it takes a little bit of both? and i really think it is rather ignorant to say that 30 years of aid have done nothing at all. that is just too general of a statement.

in capital-starved countries such as the HIPC, foreign direct investment certainly is the way - perhaps the only way - to kick start development. however, for this to successfully happen first the fundamentals need to be in place - infrastructure, education, health institutions, macroeconomic stability and rule of law.

without these fundamentals, FDI will not drastically alter the situation. the aid policy should be directed towards providing these fundamentals for it to be helpful for development. there's something called the rule of specificity, basically to strike at the heart of the disease, instead of trying to remedy its symptoms.

extreme poverty is the disease, but it thrives in environments where the fundamentals are missing.

btw, when it comes to aid, there is aid that hurts - when it is basically dumping extra food supplies - and then there is aid that helps. simply sending rice to a poor country doesnt solve anything, if anything it depresses world rice prices and pushes more poor rice farmers around the world to bankruptcy and poverty. the aid should be delivered in cash, and the recipient country should be allowed to source the products from wherever is the cheapest and economically reasonable to source from.

for example, US food aid program just makes life worse for millions around the world by dumping all the surplus rice produced by the massively subsidized rice industry.

 

[butter7]

I'm no economist...I took those courses many years ago, so please don't base the following on my intelligence or understanding of the world...my area of specialization is something else.

but...perhaps somebody can clarify for me:

would investing in business really effect those stuck in extreme poverty? wouldn't that just perpetuate the gap between extremely poor and everyone else? i can definitely see the business benefiting from international investment...but i'm wondering if the extreme poor would benefit at all. but then again, isn't that the notion behind edun?? so maybe it takes a little bit of both? and i really think it is rather ignorant to say that 30 years of aid have done nothing at all. that is just too general of a statement.

Don't know if people will hit me for saying this, but from the first day of Edun launch, I truely believe it's a very stupid business idea. The reason is this investment simply ignored the basic economic rules and the essential steps for economic development. If this idea could win, I call it a miracle.

 

[anitram]

Edun is a way to give the upper classes means to justify purchasing a $90 shirt. It is beyond the reach of all of the lower class and most of the middle class, which combined make up some 90% of society. I always thought it was a dumb idea because of its limited reach, but they're certainly entitled to push forward with it.

If you want change in attitude and hearts and minds, you don't go about it by poking the upper 10% and some members of the middle class willing to save for outrageously priced items. You try to reach the 90% at the bottom who can actually have some influence in the political process but lack the incentive and the will.

 

[butter7]

You know, the problem about Edun is it doesn't make sense to me.

If Edun suppose to be a model of FDI in Africa, then Bono should better worry about the profit and ROI of the project. The marketing strategy isn't working very well, and even the target market was some how far too narrow. And if I was going to start a company in Africa, and you show me a business case like Edun, I might change my idea.

If Edun was to set up draw people's attention to Africa, I don't think it could works better than a really touching documentary of local people's life.

If Edun is to provide opportunities to African people, then they'd better produce something that the local people could afford. From economical viewpoint, if the workers who produce the products could not afford them, and they ended up buying other imported products, the money they earned would be flowing out anyway.

So what he and Ali were thinking?

 

[anitram]

If Edun is to provide opportunities to African people, then they'd better produce something that the local people could afford. From economical viewpoint, if the workers who produce the products could not afford them, and they ended up buying other imported products, the money they earned would be flowing out anyway.

This definitely couldn't have been part of their strategy because even if the locals are making fair wages producing Edun products, they are in no more of a position to purchase them than a sweatshop worker in Indonesia can purchase the Nikes he just made.

 

[butter7]

This definitely couldn't have been part of their strategy because even if the locals are making fair wages producing Edun products, they are in no more of a position to purchase them than a sweatshop worker in Indonesia can purchase the Nikes he just made.

The point is not they would definitely buy the Edun's product, but if they want to buy the kind of product that Edun has, would Edun be a choice for them or not?

For example: one of the worker need to buy some clothing, would he/she buy the Edun one, which cost 155 US dollars for a pair of jeans, or something cost a lot less, let's say.. Nike, made in Indonesia? Do they have a choice of buying something made in Africa, good quality, at affordable price?

It's a question that where are these money actually going? It it simply flowed in, then flowed out, I have to say, it contributed very little to the local economy.

If Bono really want to help with the economic development of Africa, he'd better take a place at the domestic "demand-supply" chain, rather than the high class, international one.

 

[BVS]

If Edun was to set up draw people's attention to Africa, I don't think it could works better than a really touching documentary of local people's life.

If Edun is to provide opportunities to African people, then they'd better produce something that the local people could afford.

I think you've completely misunderstood the point of Edun...

 

[LPU2]

in capital-starved countries such as the HIPC, foreign direct investment certainly is the way - perhaps the only way - to kick start development. however, for this to successfully happen first the fundamentals need to be in place - infrastructure, education, health institutions, macroeconomic stability and rule of law.

without these fundamentals, FDI will not drastically alter the situation. the aid policy should be directed towards providing these fundamentals for it to be helpful for development. there's something called the rule of specificity, basically to strike at the heart of the disease, instead of trying to remedy its symptoms.

extreme poverty is the disease, but it thrives in environments where the fundamentals are missing.

btw, when it comes to aid, there is aid that hurts - when it is basically dumping extra food supplies - and then there is aid that helps. simply sending rice to a poor country doesnt solve anything, if anything it depresses world rice prices and pushes more poor rice farmers around the world to bankruptcy and poverty. the aid should be delivered in cash, and the recipient country should be allowed to source the products from wherever is the cheapest and economically reasonable to source from.

for example, US food aid program just makes life worse for millions around the world by dumping all the surplus rice produced by the massively subsidized rice industry.

Exactly. Well said. Thank you.

"Teaching a man to fish" doesn't work until he's got a fishing pole and some bait.

What's more, I don't think the "economists" understand exactly what Bono's advocating. They seem to think this is the same old "throwing money at the problem" solution. It's not.

 

[ntalwar]

The point is not they would definitely buy the Edun's product, but if they want to buy the kind of product that Edun has, would Edun be a choice for them or not?

For example: one of the worker need to buy some clothing, would he/she buy the Edun one, which cost 155 US dollars for a pair of jeans, or something cost a lot less, let's say.. Nike, made in Indonesia? Do they have a choice of buying something made in Africa, good quality, at affordable price?

It's a question that where are these money actually going? It it simply flowed in, then flowed out, I have to say, it contributed very little to the local economy.

If Bono really want to help with the economic development of Africa, he'd better take a place at the domestic "demand-supply" chain, rather than the high class, international one.

A Mercedes Benz auto worker probably can't afford the car either, but he/she makes a decent wage. I believe Bono does advocate local economic activity as well. For exmaple, the bottom up Millenium Villages Project that Jeffrey Sachs is involved with.

 

[Judah]

There's a bit more of a description/context of what Bono said here:

http://www.africanpath.com/p_blogEntry.cfm?blogEntryID=910

 

[butter7]

A Mercedes Benz auto worker probably can't afford the car either, but he/she makes a decent wage. I believe Bono does advocate local economic activity as well. For exmaple, the bottom up Millenium Villages Project that Jeffrey Sachs is involved with.

I think this comparison doesn't apply to the Edun condition very well. Workers from Mercedes do not live in a subject poverty country like Africa.

 

[BVS]

You're missing the point again.

 

[butter7]

You're missing the point again.

Sorry to say that, but I think you actually didn't get my point, for some reason. Might because we basically hold different orientations. If we heading to different direction, we certainly wouldn't be on the same path. So even if you've got my point, you wouldn't agree on it.

For me, the first thing for a business is to make profit. You can't save others if you can't save yourself. If Edun couldn't grow strong in a short time, the rest of the plan would forever stay in the blue print. And from this perspective, product (RED) achieved a lot better, compare to Edun.

 

[BVS]

Sorry to say that, but I think you actually didn't get my point, for some reason. Might because we basically hold different orientations. If we heading to different direction, we certainly wouldn't be on the same path. So even if you've got my point, you wouldn't agree on it.

For me, the first thing for a business is to make profit. You can't save others if you can't save yourself. If Edun couldn't grow strong in a short time, the rest of the plan would forever stay in the blue print. And from this perspective, product (RED) achieved a lot better, compare to Edun.

But you are missing the point of Edun. It's not designed to be like RED, it's not designed so that the people working and making the clothes can afford them, that is not the purpose. This is what you aren't getting. The point of Edun is to provide somewhat affordable highend clothing, to those people who buy 155 dollar jeans, but provide them in an ethical way, sweatshop free. Give a decent job to those who would otherwise not have one.

 

[butter7]

But you are missing the point of Edun. It's not designed to be like RED, it's not designed so that the people working and making the clothes can afford them, that is not the purpose. This is what you aren't getting. The point of Edun is to provide somewhat affordable highend clothing, to those people who buy 155 dollar jeans, but provide them in an ethical way, sweatshop free. Give a decent job to those who would otherwise not have one.

If you step further, look at the marketing orientation and strategy of Edun, there's one big question hanging there: How does Edun distinguish itself from other products which aiming at the same target market?

As I stated before, this target market space is narrow, and certainly only little margin for a new brand to survive. Bono said Edun it's not a charity work, but I can't see why people would buy these things if they don't have the charity thoughts in their mind and felt in their heart when there's similar products available in the market for less cost.

I care more about the business side of this project, purely practical. I'm afraid even Edun might be a great idea, if Bono and his team couldn't make it in reality, it's only a dream. And from Edun's current condition, it's a quite tough job.

 

[butter7]

Don't know who did the business case and marketing research for the Edun project, but I'm curious to know what they said on the report.

 

[ntalwar]

I think this comparison doesn't apply to the Edun condition very well. Workers from Mercedes do not live in a subject poverty country like Africa.

Edun wasn't meant to solve all of Africa's problems. No single thing can do that. Let's be realistic.

 

[BVS]

As I stated before, this target market space is narrow, and certainly only little margin for a new brand to survive. Bono said Edun it's not a charity work, but I can't see why people would buy these things if they don't have the charity thoughts in their mind and felt in their heart when there's similar products available in the market for less cost.

I care more about the business side of this project, purely practical. I'm afraid even Edun might be a great idea, if Bono and his team couldn't make it in reality, it's only a dream. And from Edun's current condition, it's a quite tough job.

Maybe you just aren't familiar with the target market.

And how does it distinquish itself? In many ways, besides the obvious of being sweatshop free and using handmade materials, there's also many design aspects that make them unique.

What's Edun's current condition? The last I heard they were doing pretty damn good for a new line in that type of target.

 

[butter7]

Maybe you just aren't familiar with the target market.

And how does it distinquish itself? In many ways, besides the obvious of being sweatshop free and using handmade materials, there's also many design aspects that make them unique.

What's Edun's current condition? The last I heard they were doing pretty damn good for a new line in that type of target.

I think the current information available for public access for Edun's project wouldn't produce an optimistic prediction of the project. I like Bono's idea, but what he said wasn't strong enough to convince me to believe that Edun will definitely work the way he wished.