Blame the Locals!!!

[nbcrusader]

It seems that promoting his agenda on the Court is more important to him personally, than saving lives.

Unfortunately, it is this type of speculation that we can now expect here.

 

[kellyahern]

But ignoring that, we blame Bush for the failures and choose to ignore the other agencies' shortfalls , because, well, it's FYM and it's more fun to do that.

~U2Alabama

No one has said the other agencies aren't to blame. I don't think any of this is "fun" either.

 

[kellyahern]

Unfortunately, it is this type of speculation that we can now expect here.

Why is it only speculation, chest thumping, and the blame game when people disagree? A lot of people are genuinely upset about this.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

No one has said the other agencies aren't to blame. I don't think any of this is "fun" either.

Now is the time to focus on helping the survivors, I don't blame anyone right now but at some point I do want answers, mostly for the people who are survivors and so that we can be better prepared in the future. I shudder to think about a massive terrorist attack and how prepared the govt really is for that. I have to think the terrorists have noted this as well

 

[kellyahern]

Sadly, the partisan board at FYM does not seem to care that there are SO MANY POPLE WHO FAILED the CITIZENS, they would prefer to blame Bush than look at the entire picture.

If someone, anyone, from the administration would actually speak about this without relying on those damn talking points, I would be willing to listen. But to just repeat "we're no going to play the blame game, now is not the time " is just infuriating to me. I hate it when they sound like they are all reading from the same script.

And I know it's selfish, but if the mayor of NO gets thrown in jail or sued or whatever over this, it isn't going to help me when the next storm hits Florida. Absolutely, he has to be held responsible for his actions (or lack thereof), but FEMA is seriously screwed up and right now I have no faith that they will help in time when needed.

And what about all the Mississippi officials? There was trouble down there too. Why isn't anyone calling for Governor Barbour's head like they are for the governor of Louisianna?

 

[elfyx]

Unfortunately, it is this type of speculation that we can now expect here.

Well, to be blunt- there is very little speculation left. His and his administrations actions this week speak far louder than the cripted speeches that comes out of Rove's office.

You know what pisses me off? That the man can spend 40 minutes bereaving the chief justice in public- he hadn't shown a fraction of the same bereavement to the people of the gulf coast to this point. THEN- the one thing that I think speaks volumes about this whole tragedy- that did anyone notice Bush hadn't cared one single iota enough to fly the flag at half staff!?

This is one of the biggest symbolic gestures a presidency can do. No- he totally forgot- and so now we fly the flag at half staff because of Rheinquist and "conveniently" -a week later- Katrina victims.

Utterly, completely dispicable.

 

[nbcrusader]

Why is it only speculation, chest thumping, and the blame game when people disagree? A lot of people are genuinely upset about this.

Only? I guess that is just one of the FYM games we play. Take a comment to the extreme.

Upset or not, the hyperbole found in a number of threads does not add to the conversation.

I sincerely doubt many would want to live to the standards they create in their threads here in FYM.

 

[kellyahern]

Only? I guess that is just one of the FYM games we play. Take a comment to the extreme.

I'm not playing any games here. I never posted before this whole mess in FYM. This has really made me angry.

 

[nbcrusader]

I'm not playing any games here. I never posted before this whole mess in FYM. This has really made me angry.

Sorry, I didn't mean to come down on you like that. I realize you are upset about the suffering in the wake of Katrina and the slow response to remove that suffering.

I've been in FYM a long time and notice the patterns used in the discussions. Too often people will interpret a post and then slam the interpretation. Rarely do we get a request for clarification. It is my own fatigue of this place.

 

[elfyx]

Let's all remember that there is absolutely no justification for the blame-game as its called, because clearly everything is running so smoothly now that accountability is a back-burner issue.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/06/AR2005090601994.html

So far, Thorson said, the State Department has denied Sweden's request for flight clearance. "We don't know exactly why, but we have a suspicion that the system is clogged on the receiving end," he said. "But we keep a request alive all the time, so we are not forgotten."

 

[MadelynIris]

Even if they were not able to get 100,000 people out under those immediate conditions (understandable), what about their ability to send IN food, water, medical help and security?



This should have been put in place at the moment the decision to house thousands of people in the Superdome was made. A hurricane evacuation plan for hurricanes/flood should have been something that a city like NO should have been able to execute in their sleep

I've heard that the FEDS basically had to FORCE the govenor and mayor to call for a mandatory evacuation on Saturday, and neither of them wanted to do it.

 

[kellyahern]

I've heard that the FEDS basically had to FORCE the govenor and mayor to call for a mandatory evacuation on Saturday, and neither of them wanted to do it.

Source?

I really would like to read this article.

 

[elfyx]

I've heard that the FEDS basically had to FORCE the govenor and mayor to call for a mandatory evacuation on Saturday, and neither of them wanted to do it.

There is going to be hell to pay by the mayor and the governor in this tragedy.

 

[BVS]

I've heard that the FEDS basically had to FORCE the govenor and mayor to call for a mandatory evacuation on Saturday, and neither of them wanted to do it.

Well I can't think the decision to force people out of their homes into circumstances that could be worse isn't easy. But this still doesn't have much to do with your original comments.

 

[MadelynIris]

But this still doesn't have much to do with your original comments.

Which comments?

 

[MadelynIris]

Mayor Ray Nagin's spokeswoman, Tanzie Jones, insisted that there was no reluctance at City Hall to open the Superdome as Ivan approached, but said the evacuation was the top priority.


"Our main focus is to get the people out of the city," she told the AP.


"We did the compassionate thing by opening the shelter," Nagin said. "We wanted to make sure we didn't have a repeat performance of what happened before. We didn't want to see people cooped up in the Superdome for days."


Noted the AP story: "When another dangerous hurricane, Georges, appeared headed for the city in 1998, the Superdome was opened as a shelter and an estimated 14,000 people poured in." But just as happened after Katrina, the AP reported there were problems, including theft and vandalism.


With Ivan approaching, far fewer took refuge from the storm - an estimated 1,100 - at the Superdome, and there was far greater security: 300 National Guardsmen.


Wrote the AP of the Ivan debacle: "The main safety measure - getting people out of town - raised its own problems. More than 1 million people tried to leave the city and surrounding suburbs on Tuesday, creating a traffic jam as bad as or worse than the evacuation that followed Georges. In the afternoon, state police took action, reversing inbound lanes on southeastern Louisiana interstates to provide more escape routes. Bottlenecks persisted, however.


"Col. Henry Whitehorn, head of state police, said he believed his agency acted appropriately, but also acknowledged he never expected a seven-hour-long crawl for the 60 miles between New Orleans and Baton Rouge.


"It was so bad that some broadcasters were telling people to stay home, that they had missed their window of opportunity to leave. They claimed the interstates had turned into parking lots where trapped people could die in a storm surge.


"Gov. Kathleen Blanco and [Mayor] Nagin both acknowledged the need to improve traffic flow and said state police should consider reversing highway lanes earlier. They also promised meetings with governments in neighboring localities and state transportation officials to improve evacuation plans.


But it appears that nothing had been changed by the time Katrina made its appearance in the Gulf.


After Ivan, Blanco and other state officials boasted that, while irritating, the clogged escape routes got people out of the most vulnerable areas.


"We were able to get people out," state Commissioner of Administration Jerry Luke LeBlanc said. "It was successful. There was frustration, yes. But we got people out of harm's way."


After Katrina struck, however, escape routes out of the city were clogged with bumper-to-bumper traffic, leaving some motorists on the road when the Hurricane arrived.


A new photo from AP shows a huge fleet of school buses lined up in a now flooded parking lot - what appears to be enough transportation sufficient to have evacuated many of those stranded in the city and left to endure unimaginable conditions - transportation that the mayor failed to use when there was still time to use it.


The lessons of Ivan were never learned, and the people of New Orleans paid the price.

The locals have been through this before, and seen it before, without any improvement. Lots of promises, no improvement.

 

[sulawesigirl4]

I've heard that the FEDS basically had to FORCE the govenor and mayor to call for a mandatory evacuation on Saturday, and neither of them wanted to do it.

Source please?

edited: I think you posted at the same time.

 

[YBORCITY]

Bottom Line in all of this is ACCOUNTABILITY

We have an Administration that can make Major mistake after mistake and just pass the buck off to anyone who is near like the Democrats, local Gov't, State Gov't, poor intelligience as in the stockpile of WMD's that are still sitting somewhere just east of Neverland and the list goes on and on..........

I don't much like listening to radio talk shows but over the weekend I heard a moderate Conservative say that George W. will go down as the WORST President in the history of the US.

I think of myself middle of the road maybe leaning a little to the right, but in all honesty this guy and his whole Administration is out of control. It's easy to point fingers but when one has the title it is ultimately thier responsibility, they have to be held accountable.

 

[BVS]

Which comments?

Can someone explain to me how one rescues 100,000 people in rising water say, by Thursday? Within 48 hours of the levee breaking?

^This was your response to Bush reacting slow...

Katrina hit the states Aug 25th went from a Category 1 to a 5 in three days. Bush declared a state of emergency on the 29th, cut his vacation short on the 30th, but didn't send any federal government help until September 2nd!!! No food, National Guard, nothing!

So I don't see how you can't acknowledge that a rescue effort was delayed...even Bush has.

 

[MadelynIris]

I heard it on the news last night, and I'm trying to track down the source via the internet now.

In the mean time, I ran across this interesting op-ed.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/regan_preston200509061439.asp

 

[phanan]

Again, Dreadsox' point regarding the local control over the school bus fleet is that the City and/or State should have began utilizing them Friday, Saturday and Sunday, August 26-28, BEFORE the Hurricane hit.

But ignoring that, we blame Bush for the failures and choose to ignore the other agencies' shortfalls , because, well, it's FYM and it's more fun to do that.

~U2Alabama

Again, I don't think most of us are ignoring that. I think we all agree things could have been done better before this all happened.

By the same token, it seems several people are wishing to deflect any blame on the Bush administration as much as they can, when people are legitimately upset about this.

 

[phanan]

No one has said the other agencies aren't to blame. I don't think any of this is "fun" either.

Agreed.

 

[phanan]

Only? I guess that is just one of the FYM games we play. Take a comment to the extreme.

Upset or not, the hyperbole found in a number of threads does not add to the conversation.

I sincerely doubt many would want to live to the standards they create in their threads here in FYM.

The irony here is that you keep making the same comments over and over about others at FYM playing games and are not adding anything to the conversation, either.

I think most of us aren't playing games about this. Most of us are genuinely upset about what has happened.

 

[Irvine511]

The irony here is that you keep making the same comments over and over about others at FYM playing games and are not adding anything to the conversation, either.

I think most of us aren't playing games about this. Most of us are genuinely upset about what has happened.

yes, but it's easier to say that some people are playing games and being partisan when there's any lack of counter-discussion.

everyone, EVERYONE, who is dismayed at the federal government's lack of response isn't giving the mayor or the governor of NOLA any sort of free pass. we are all upset at the buses. but this doesn't excuse, NOT FOR A MINUTE, the shameful response of FEMA and the grevious gap between what everyone with a newspaper, modum, or television set saw and read about and statements issued by Michael "heckuva job" Brown and Chertoff.

but hey, it's much easier to call any sort of dissent from the republican agenda as mindless "Bush bashing" when you have no argument or defense for the administation's actions.

yes, let's label arguments and play sanctimonious "this isn't helping anyone, people!" games instead of actually responding to people's posts.

really what's happened is that, as everyone acknowledges, this was a total failure of government, at all levels. there is no defending anyone here, so we resort to calling things we disagree with "extreme."

 

[Irvine511]

don't worry, the press corps and the WH are playing the same games that FYM is:



Q Yes, but you're telling us today there will be time for that somewhere down the road. Well, what if it happens tomorrow?

MR. McCLELLAN: We can engage in this blame-gaming going on and I think that's what you're getting --

Q No, no. That's a talking point, Scott, and I think most people who are watching this --

MR. McCLELLAN: No, that's a fact. I mean, some are wanting to engage in that, and we're going to remain focused --

Q I'm asking a direct question. Is he confident --

MR. McCLELLAN: We're going to remain focused on the people.

Q -- that he can secure the American people in the event of a major terrorist attack?

MR. McCLELLAN: We are securing the American people by staying on the offensive abroad and working to spread freedom and democracy in the Middle East.

Q That's a talking point. That's a talking point.

MR. McCLELLAN: No, that's a fact.

Go ahead.

Q No, it's not.




not to worry folks!

as the President said, "we're problem solvers; that means we solve problems."

if that statement holds any sort of logic or reason or assurance to you, then i suppose you deserve this president.

 

[elfyx]

I heard it on the news last night, and I'm trying to track down the source via the internet now.

In the mean time, I ran across this interesting op-ed.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/regan_preston200509061439.asp

That's a pretty damning indictment of state and local government. There are many questions that will need to be answered, by a thorough investigation, and there is no doubt local government will be found guilty.

Unfortunately, however, the author somehow pretends that the Feds should be totally let off the hook for failing to respond appropriately. This is in spite of the fact that the state of Louisiana begged for help (after realizing how disdainfully unprepared they were no doubt) on Sunday August 28th. This is also in spite of the fact that the Department of Homeland Security claims responsibility for any and all natural disasters, which was actually declared.

This whole circling-of-wagons thing by democrats vs. republicans, local vs federal is a false dichotemy.

 

[kellyahern]

That's a pretty damning indictment of state and local government. There are many questions that will need to be answered, by a thorough investigation, and there is no doubt local government will be found guilty.

Unfortunately, however, the author somehow pretends that the Feds should be totally let off the hook for failing to respond appropriately. This is in spite of the fact that the state of Louisiana begged for help (after realizing how disdainfully unprepared they were no doubt) on Sunday August 28th. This is also in spite of the fact that the Department of Homeland Security claims responsibility for any and all natural disasters, which was actually declared.

This whole circling-of-wagons thing by democrats vs. republicans, local vs federal is a false dichotemy.

Well said.

It seems that local agencies failed in pre-storm preparation, and federal agencies failed in post-storm response. I realize that's an oversimplification, but it looks like the problem is shaping up to be something like that.

 

[Irvine511]

Well said.

It seems that local agencies failed in pre-storm preparation, and federal agencies failed in post-storm response. I realize that's an oversimplification, but it looks like the problem is shaping up to be something like that.

no, the feds failed pre-storm as well. from the WaPo:




While Chertoff said the levee breach that flooded New Orleans "exceeded the foresight of planners," Max Mayfield, director of the National Hurricane Center, said Brown and other top federal officials were briefed as much as 32 hours in advance of landfall that Hurricane Katrina's storm surge was likely to overtop levees and cause catastrophic flooding.

"They knew that this one was different," Mayfield said yesterday. "I don't think Mike Brown or anyone else in FEMA could have any reason to have any problem with our calls. . . . They were told. . . . We said the levees could be topped."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/05/AR2005090501590.html

 

[Scarletwine]

I agree local gov't failed in not assisting in the evacuation of people. They didn't even try to evacuate the hospitals. It does look as if the Govenor did try to get assistance early on.

Exposed: Louisiana Governor Had Asked Bush To Declare Disaster On Aug, 28th.



http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10152.htm

Brown should be fired immediately. But no, instead lets give him a Medal of Freedom.

 

[kellyahern]

no, the feds failed pre-storm as well. from the WaPo:

Oh yes, I know. I just didn't want to be accused of "Bush bashing" again by only focusing on the federal government.

Also part of FEMA's responsibility in pre-storm preparation is to work with the local goverment on prevention measures. There was an article wondering how much FEMA's budget cuts affected this program. I wish I could find it. It was an interview with Jane Brown (I'm not sure on the name ), a former FEMA official.