Black Hawk Down

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the olive

The Fly
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I just saw this film and really enjoyed it. An excellent portrayal of a confusing and horrific battle - Mogadishu 1993.

All political perspectives aside, the story really shows how a group of young Americans held their ground under overwhelming odds. It doesn't have as much character developement as Saving Private Ryan, but it doesn't seem to try. It also isn't a cheesy flag waver like Pearl Harbor. It sticks to the facts of the event very closely - a short operation that turned long and ugly. Like it or not, the US government sends its troops into some nasty places. This is a good film about what can happen.
 
Originally posted by Lemonite:
And besides, it is a great launching pad for American support as we take the war on terrorism to Somalia next.. HAHahaha... Opening up a can of worms there. yes i did write worms.. worms..

Let me get this straight; its a great launching pad for the NEXT war on Somalia? Is this true? I do know the USA has big plans for other countries, but do you honestly think that Somalia might be next?

I sincerely hope not.

I really want to see the movie, and I could have seen it today, but I have an exam to revise for so I'll go the day after tomorrow. Apart from the aforementioned reasons, the film is directed by my favourite director, British Ace-talent Ridley Scott; now HE'S a genius.

Ant.
 
Originally posted by Anthony:
Let me get this straight; its a great launching pad for the NEXT war on Somalia? Is this true? I do know the USA has big plans for other countries, but do you honestly think that Somalia might be next?

I sincerely hope not.

I really want to see the movie, and I could have seen it today, but I have an exam to revise for so I'll go the day after tomorrow. Apart from the aforementioned reasons, the film is directed by my favourite director, British Ace-talent Ridley Scott; now HE'S a genius.

Ant.

From what i've heard, Somalia is up on the agenda soon if not in time.. Mostly because it is the most likely second homing ground for al queda troops and bin laden himself as they try and regroup, cuz really no other country would harbor him..

Yes.. R. Scott.. An amazingly geniusical talent..

L. Unplugged
 
Originally posted by Lemonite:
Yes.. R. Scott.. An amazingly geniusical talent..

Are you serious? You like him too? FINALLY, someone who recognises his genius. Whats your favourite movie of his?

Ant.
 
Originally posted by Anthony:
Are you serious? You like him too? FINALLY, someone who recognises his genius. Whats your favourite movie of his?

Ant.

I'm a big big fan of Blade RUnner, it's one of my favs.. though i'm kinda sad it was released that he was a replicant, I kinda liked the mystery..
But also, I really like White Squall, I'm not sure why, but it's got a place in my fav's... most defly a hidden gem
and of course, I love Gladiator, I tink it's a perfect blend of action, blind action, music, and cinematography.

L. Unplugged
 
Oh My Gosh.. Oh My Gosh.. (Haha.. a little teeny bopper ignorance for you).. I too saw this movie, and I have to say it was very good, very realistic in regards to how a movie can recreate a war scene... What's disturbing is that it is even glamorized.. jsut because movies are that way.. which makes you realize just how shitty ti was there.. I will say that I did almost walk out, when (No spoiler here) they took the american to drag him in the streets.. yet they didn't show it.. And my girlfriend told me that (well what do you think americans would do if we were being invaded).. and honestly, that's a good point, but it doesn't matter, Even back in teh days of Hector being dragged in the Iliad, That's just a horrifyig image for any country, any person, but I'm not addressing that here.. not now.. back to the movie, I will say that I tink it was a conscious decison on the director et al to not develop any characters. Hartnet's performance was weak though.. not yet redeeming him for Pearl Harbor.. they more wanted the army to be faceless heroes, to have everyone look alike, but some of the performances were excellent.. Sizemore as always, comes through with great acting.. as well as the one pilot from armageddon. Don't know his name, but youl'll recognize him if you see it...

Also, just one more thing, I've heard all about teh rumors or upheavings taht this movie is Racist.. And I tink bill o reily put it best... 'We couldn't hav gone in and gottenthe somali perspective, cuz we'd have been killed in the process'.. I think taht says copious amounts of teh real attitude fo teh people and of the situation there...

I too did like it alot, You realize just how brave those guys are, and the ones we've got over in afghani now... just how heroic they are... Searching those caves and what not...

And besides, it is a great launching pad for American support as we take the war on terrorism to Somalia next.. HAHahaha... Opening up a can of worms there. yes i did write worms.. worms..
 
Where I live, we have a burgeoning population of Somalian immigrants and refugees. I know that they have been uncomfortable and unhappy with this movie as they feel it will only serve to strain relationships and paint them in broad, general strokes as "the bad guys." And I tend to agree with them. I don't see myself going to see this movie.
 
Here there is two kind of critics : the 'commercial' ones and 'the others'.

The commercial ones tend to agree and accept and glorify anything and everything about Hollywood and big productions. The others sometimes agree, sometimes disagree.

And the frontier is remarkable. The commercial ones say this movie is good and that it shows everything as they were. The other ones say its not worth of seeing. Commercial critics could be shown as a majority of big medias and the other ones are usually free newspapers, little medias and other stuff. There really is a frontier. I even saw something (in a big newspaper) saying something like : "Hollywood shows the US colors... what's news ?" or "Again ?", historical critics and "Good vs Evil... nothing new".

Personally, I'm with the little ones. I went see that movie and left at about the middle time.

------------------
United Nations : www.un.org - UNICEF (United Nations Children's Fund) : www.unicef.org
UNESCO (United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization) : www.unesco.org

Ej?rcito Zapatista de Liberaci?n Nacional (EZLN) : www.ezln.org
"The one who governs with weapons is surely poor in ideas" - Marcos

Solidarit?s : <A HREF="http://www.solidarites.org

Parti" TARGET=_blank>www.solidarites.org

Parti</A> pour une Alternative Progressiste : www.parti-rap.org
 
Its for sure that Hollywood will make a film on September II 200I, maybe more and than one (y'know.. they've done a Titanic movie twice.. one in I953 and one in I997, not to mention the hundreds of times the name 'Titanic' was mentionned). I just hope they don't invent a fucking love stroy like they've done with Titanic. Being a Titanic survivor, go see the film and only really capture the fucking love story between two fictious people... nah. Now they will invent the love story of two employees working in the World Trade Center, the guy dies during the crumble, the girl is trapped and she wants to die but finally she remembers that the guy said "stay alive, make lots of babies" and so she decides to live, she's rescued and she goes on the memorial of the WTC 80 years after, she starts sleeping on a bench in the memorial.. or maybe something else. The structure of this story is a instant hit, give it the appropriate budget and its a mega-hit and everyone forgets Jack & Rose on Titanic and they now search for "Jack"'s tomb in the WTC cimetery. No real rendition of the real story, but an instant hit and all the girls go wild. I hope this scenario will not happen "if the world really changed".

------------------
United Nations : www.un.org - UNICEF (United Nations Children's Fund) : www.unicef.org
UNESCO (United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization) : www.unesco.org

Ej?rcito Zapatista de Liberaci?n Nacional (EZLN) : www.ezln.org
"The one who governs with weapons is surely poor in ideas" - Marcos

Solidarit?s : <A HREF="http://www.solidarites.org

Parti" TARGET=_blank>www.solidarites.org

Parti</A> pour une Alternative Progressiste : www.parti-rap.org
 
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
Where I live, we have a burgeoning population of Somalian immigrants and refugees. I know that they have been uncomfortable and unhappy with this movie as they feel it will only serve to strain relationships and paint them in broad, general strokes as "the bad guys." And I tend to agree with them. I don't see myself going to see this movie.

From what I have read, they were torn between delving into the lives of Somali's.. making them more like real people in the movie, and at the same time, developing the US soldiers a bit more as well, .. You're right.. a lot of people are labeling this movie racist.. But I'm not so sure that the movie is supposed to be about... In light of the September 11 events.. (And I know that this is a direct contradiction), but I'm not so sure that the movie is anymore about the Somalia conflict, or our 15 hours stranded there with these Somalis firing at us, dragging us through the streets... or how they felt they were being invaded by us, or them wondering why we're there fighting when we were supposed to be just delivering food.. Much like U2's new album.. It has taken on a different meaning, more to show the horrors of war, as only a movie can.. I'm sure it'll be labeled propaganda, and it already has by suelwasgirl, but It reminds us of how Brutal war is.. Not necessarily just Somalis, but At the Present moment, the Al Queda, Bin Laden, Those people who want all of us dead.. Those who would take the fork they're using to eat with and stab it in our throats, Slam the Handcuff against an MP's head to inflict pain and hopefully kill him, Regardless of who it paints as a running mob, It gets into the American's head to realize that there are some shitty people out there who want us dead.. (Again regardless of the situation) and hopefully get into the heads of some of those who think Manacling the detainees, or hooding them is 'bad treatment', and i'm sure the imminent executions of a large number of them...

Again, I realize that this is a different take on the movie, but no different than many of yours on a song like 'walk on' or Bono's new interpretation of 'in a little while' with j. ramone..

All in said, I think it's a good movie for people to see, Just to be reminded of it.. And I'll agree... I almost left in the middle of it, but not because of some sort of imagined 'racial stereotypes' that many people complain of, and sulawesigirl.. if you have not seen it, how can you 'agree with the proverbial them' on the strained relationships you see coming on?.. go see it and judge for yourself. Somalia is a nation that harbors terrorists.. Hence, they are against us.. hence.. (yes hence again).. the bad guys... Free your mind.

And ANthony.. Yah, I just like Blade Runner so much better when it's not the directors cut.. It just doesn't sit with me what they did... And yes.. Still one of my fav's

[This message has been edited by Lemonite (edited 01-21-2002).]
 
Originally posted by Lemonite:


And ANthony.. Yah, I just like Blade Runner so much better when it's not the directors cut.. It just doesn't sit with me what they did... And yes.. Still one of my fav's

Damn right !! the full version was much more higher , better etc etc
 
I have yet to see this movie but I have read the book. I am an avid reader and tend to read at a rediculous pace but I could not digest this book quickly. It was so graphic I had to put it down on several occasions. I don't know if I would be able to sit through the movie. The book really was good though. My boyfriend is an ex Army Ranger so I knew the story long ago. (He was in Kosovo and Columbia when he was in) He has seen some horrific stuff and the book bothered him as well. Ah, I do not think the book was racist, I'm not sure why that is really being addressed. The event happened, it is a reality. A Delta force solider was dragged through the streets by his heels.
As for why the director choose not to put this scene in the film, well, the real picture exists. Perhaps R Scott felt it would have been in bad taste. I'd have to agree then.
Anyway, was the film very graphic?
 
Originally posted by WildHoneyAlways:
I have yet to see this movie but I have read the book. I am an avid reader and tend to read at a rediculous pace but I could not digest this book quickly. It was so graphic I had to put it down on several occasions. I don't know if I would be able to sit through the movie. The book really was good though. My boyfriend is an ex Army Ranger so I knew the story long ago. (He was in Kosovo and Columbia when he was in) He has seen some horrific stuff and the book bothered him as well. Ah, I do not think the book was racist, I'm not sure why that is really being addressed. The event happened, it is a reality. A Delta force solider was dragged through the streets by his heels.
As for why the director choose not to put this scene in the film, well, the real picture exists. Perhaps R Scott felt it would have been in bad taste. I'd have to agree then.
Anyway, was the film very graphic?

I think a lot of people are calling the movie racist because it does not really delve into any of the Somali's lives, and just presents them as a Mass of people, I for one, did not find it to be racist, as like I posted above, there wasn't much diving into teh lives of the American soldiers, .. I think BIll O Reily addressed the complaints by many of all this racial hullabaloo.. Check my post at the top...

As for the film, It was very graphic, and at the same time, was not as graphic as it could have been, and almost in necessity to remind the american public of this horrific affair, as graphic as it needed to be, but needless to say, It didn't realy hide anything, there's plenty of disturbing scenes...

I'm wanting to read the book, I'll probably have to hit it up during spring break, cuz I've got biochemistry biting on my heels.. Yes.. Jsut a little life history of L. Unplugged for you.
 
Originally posted by Lemonite:
I'm sure it'll be labeled propaganda, and it already has by suelwasgirl, but It reminds us of how Brutal war is..

Kindly refrain from putting incorrect words in my mouth. I stated my empathy with the fears of a local minority population and said that I am not interested in seeing the movie. How this amounts to "labelling it propaganda" is beyond ridiculous. It also might behoove you to learn how to spell. For future reference the nick would be sulawesigirl and if it's too long and complicated I'm sure just "sula" will suffice.
 
Lemonite;

Personally, I never bought the stuff they suggested in the DIRECTOR'S CUT of Bladerunner, so I ignored it. However, Bladerunner is still my favourite sci-fi film of all time.

Ant.
 
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
Kindly refrain from putting incorrect words in my mouth. I stated my empathy with the fears of a local minority population and said that I am not interested in seeing the movie. How this amounts to "labelling it propaganda" is beyond ridiculous. It also might behoove you to learn how to spell. For future reference the nick would be sulawesigirl and if it's too long and complicated I'm sure just "sula" will suffice.
Ah, The difficulties of trying to type under the influence of Speed, igniting room curtains, and flaming pumpkins,
Thanks for clearing up your position,
And also, please if you're going to insult someone, using the ol' 'Lern too Spel', is cheap and does nothing fire back with any sort of 'got you last ammo'. However I had spelled your 'Code NAme', SULA is just as much a wrong spelling, Keep us on the same page miss girl.. either you want your name spelled right or any form of it will do.. If you were put off by it, I wasn't intending any harm, or insultation to you and in no way was I criticizing you, Is just echoing your statements drawing from your post.. you cleared up your position.. all is fine... But I just think that you're insulted that I didn't give the time to 'spell check' my response to your thread.

L. Unplugged


[This message has been edited by Lemonite (edited 01-22-2002).]
 
Actually, unlike yourself, I attempt to make it a practice not to indulge in "tactics", cheap or otherwise, and if you think that my correction of your mispelling of my name was one, then it's something that you are reading INTO my actions. In my opinion, it's just common courtesy to spell names as correctly as possible and to do otherwise displays a lack of respect for the person you are addressing. Finally, "sula" is a shortened form of "sulawesigirl" a nickname as it may be...not a corruption of the spelling. Hope this clarifies any misconceptions you may still continue to hold.
 
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
Actually, unlike yourself, I attempt to make it a practice not to indulge in "tactics", cheap or otherwise, and if you think that my correction of your mispelling of my name was one, then it's something that you are reading INTO my actions. In my opinion, it's just common courtesy to spell names as correctly as possible and to do otherwise displays a lack of respect for the person you are addressing. Finally, "sula" is a shortened form of "sulawesigirl" a nickname as it may be...not a corruption of the spelling. Hope this clarifies any misconceptions you may still continue to hold.

All cleared from the apparently innocent Miss sulawesigirl#4.
Now Back to the Thread!

Cheers,
L. Unplugged
 
Originally posted by Lemonite:
Somalia is a nation that harbors terrorists.. Hence, they are against us.. hence.. (yes hence again).. the bad guys... Free your mind.

Free your mind indeed.

I would like to know what your definition of "they" are. "They", all the Somalis? I'm sure Awale and his wife Hodan, say average dirt-poor farmers, and their 7 children, half of whom will die before the age of 5 are "against you" and henceforth "bad guys."

Free your mind, indeed.
 
Originally posted by anitram:
Free your mind indeed.

I would like to know what your definition of "they" are. "They", all the Somalis? I'm sure Awale and his wife Hodan, say average dirt-poor farmers, and their 7 children, half of whom will die before the age of 5 are "against you" and henceforth "bad guys."

Free your mind, indeed.


The United States, as an extension of the UN, first worked to relieve a devestating famine in Somalia and then tried to rid the country of the war lords responsible for starving the people. As a result, clan loyalities to these miserable war lords, who gained loyalty, by the way, by addicting Somali people to a local drug, the people of Mogadishu began to resent the United States' interference.
When US Ranger troops attempted to rid Mogadishu of one particular war lord, his name escapes me (his last name begins with an A) violence errupted. The Somali people were, in fact, defending the man responsible for withholding UN foodstuffs causing starvation again.
Now, since these "dirt poor farmers" that the UN and the US attempted to help by ending a famine suddenly meet US troops with AK 47's, damn straight they are the "bad guys." Men, women and childrem were armed. Most of the children were unalble to hold the AK properly because of its weight.
This was not a few people who took to the streets, it was 1000's.
This is not to say that the entire country and all of it's citizens are aiming AK 47's at the United States, but since there is no established goverment and many terrorist groups run Somalia, it must be considered a threat to the United States.
 
Originally posted by WildHoneyAlways:
Now, since these "dirt poor farmers" that the UN and the US attempted to help by ending a famine suddenly meet US troops with AK 47's, damn straight they are the "bad guys." Men, women and childrem were armed. Most of the children were unalble to hold the AK properly because of its weight.
This was not a few people who took to the streets, it was 1000's.
This is not to say that the entire country and all of it's citizens are aiming AK 47's at the United States, but since there is no established goverment and many terrorist groups run Somalia, it must be considered a threat to the United States.

Assume there were "thousands" of armed men, women and children in the streets. There are also 9.5 million other people in Somalia. To say "damn straight they are bad guys" is a dangerous statement. You later on say, that "not all of its citizens were holding AK-47s" when the truth is that a tiny % of the whole population was. As Sula said, this movie could be potentially offensive to a Somali, because it does precisely what some people have stated on this thread, that is to refer to "them" as "bad", "against us" and so on. As you have stated, Somalia is an established threat to the US. I ask you, in your eyes, who/what is Somalia? The vast majority of people, who live in temporary settlements, and are still nomadic, who don't know how to read, and most certainly have nothing to do with supporting terrorism, as they are a little preoccupied with trying to find food for their children? Draw a parallel with Afghanistan. The majority of the population are poor people who would be happy just to live until tomorrow, who have no political interests, who do not invite or harbor terrorists, nor have anything to do with them. When you see Somalia as a threat, think about what the majority of Somalis really are - decent people - just like you and I may be.

Generalizations are dangerous things. When Billy Graham's son stated that "The God of Islam is not the same God. He's not the son of God of the Christian or Judeo-Christian faith. It's a different God, and I believe it is a very evil and wicked religion," would Osama bin Laden be justified in saying that since Franklin Graham and his followers harbor an intolerance for Islam, then it's true that all Americans are "bad" and "threats to us?" Think about it, because it cuts both ways, and that's why a generalization is never good.
 
The fact is that thousands of Somali people did attack US forces. Granted this is a small percentage of the population. However, just because the percentage is small does not mean that threat does not exist. The unstabiltiy in that region, as well as places such as Afganistan, is a problem. Do you not agree? I am not so ignorant to think that every person from Afganistan is a terrorist. I also do not think that every person from Somalia is anti American. The United Nations Humanitarian effort to relieve the famine in that region was in large part successful. After the United Nations left the area conditions worsened due to corrupt "leaders." I was in no way implying that the entire country/population is a threat. I do consider someone aiming an automatic rifle at a US troop a threat. Moreover, the threat stems from the fact that the country harbors terrorists that kill Americans, Brits, French, German, Japanese, and not to mention far greater numbers of thier own people!
I have yet to see the film but as stated before I have read the book. It was neither racist or generalizing. In fact, it was specific, almost confusing because of the great number of people mentioned. I consider myself to be well informed on the events leading up to and following that day in October. Being that someone close to me is an Army Ranger I have strong feelings about anyone wanting to point a gun at him. I don't really care where they are from.
Perhaps people should not make judgements when they hear information second hand. I am just asking that if one is going to condem the book or film as racist or generalizing the Somali people then at least read it or see it first.
 
Well, I saw the film today and I thought it was well worth my money; it was an accurate description of warfare, without any pretenses about character development all in the name of emotionally manipulating the audience, I think their approach was just fine. And no, I didn't think it was at all rascist.


Ant.
 
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