Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

[Macfistowannabe]

Back in the day, almost all actors and entertainers in America were patriotic.

Jimmy Stewart was a colonel in the Army Air corps. He was a certified bomber pilot in World War II. He earned two medals: The Distinguished Flying Cross and the Air Metal, for flying many missions against the Germans.

Clark Gable, who starred in Gone With The Wind, sent FDR a telegram requesting permission to join the US Army. He was in his forties at the time. Roosevelt reportedly said, "Stay where you are." It didn't end there. Clark Gable worked his way up the ladder. First a lieutenant, then a captain, then a major. He flew air raids with the 351st Bomb Group at Polebrook, England, and also in a B-17 bomber with the 91st Bomb Group. The Nazis even put a reward for his head as a result of his bombing campaigns. This is about the last thing you might expect Sean Penn to do.

Case in point, Ronald Reagan became a captain for the US Air Corps. Henry Fonda received a Bronze Star for Valor when he served in the Navy. Charles Durning earned three Purple Hearts and the Silver star. While serving in the Army, James Arness was awarded the Purple Heart and the Bronze Star. If you think these are the few exceptions, you're wrong. Alan Ladd, Jack Palance, George Montgomery, Glenn Ford, Van Heflin, Jackie Coogan, Don Adams, Lee Marvin, and Arthur Kennedy - all actors, all soldiers, all patriots for the free world.

They turned over their celebrity status to fight alongside of America's working class, risking their lives. These days, there's a better chance of your Hollywood lads to march alongside of Human Shield, who went to Iraq to disrupt our military operations.

Were our Hollywood Heroes better off than our troops are in Iraq right now? Probably not. The reported American death toll in World War II is 292,131, according to the United States Civil War Center.

Today's Hollywood types are screaming about some 2,000 US casualties and the billions of dollars invested in the war effort. Maybe they don't realize that we spent what would add up to over $2 trillion in today's cost adjustment on World War II.

Hmm...

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Back in the day, almost all actors and entertainers in America were patriotic.

You know, I'm not patriotic in the slightest but the implication that to oppose the war means one is not patriotic bothers me, if only because it seems that being branded 'unpatriotic' is problematic for many opponents of the war. Please tell me what is unpatriotic about questioning or indeed opposing a policy of your government.

Today's Hollywood types are screaming about some 2,000 US casualties and the billions of dollars invested in the war effort. Maybe they don't realize that we spent what would add up to over $2 trillion in today's cost adjustment on World War II.

The author of the article (I don't know if it's your own article or not? Could you clarify?) seems to assume some sort of equivalence between World War II and the current war in Iraq, when even a cursory glance at a textbook of twentieth century history will expose the vast differences between the conflict of 1939-1945 and the contemporary situation in Iraq.

And just for the record, people's concern with the war in Iraq isn't exclusively with American military deaths or the cost to the United States. Many people are disgusted to see that thousands of innocent Iraqis have been killed and millions more had their lives devastated by the invasion. It is that reason, as much or more than the cost to the United States, which leads many to oppose this war.

 

[STING2]

Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

You know, I'm not patriotic in the slightest but the implication that to oppose the war means one is not patriotic bothers me, if only because it seems that being branded 'unpatriotic' is problematic for many opponents of the war. Please tell me what is unpatriotic about questioning or indeed opposing a policy of your government.



The author of the article (I don't know if it's your own article or not? Could you clarify?) seems to assume some sort of equivalence between World War II and the current war in Iraq, when even a cursory glance at a textbook of twentieth century history will expose the vast differences between the conflict of 1939-1945 and the contemporary situation in Iraq.

And just for the record, people's concern with the war in Iraq isn't exclusively with American military deaths or the cost to the United States. Many people are disgusted to see that thousands of innocent Iraqis have been killed and millions more had their lives devastated by the invasion. It is that reason, as much or more than the cost to the United States, which leads many to oppose this war.

Yet many people who opposed the invasion never marched or had rally's to protest Saddam's invasion of Iran, Invasion of Kuwait, and attacks on Israel and Saudi Arabia. Where was the concern for the millions of lives impacted in various ways(Iraqi's as well as people around the world) by Saddam's actions and if one was truely concerned about what Saddam had done in the past as well as what he could potentially do in the future, why would one oppose removing the regime, in the only way it could be done given Saddam's capabilities?

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Re: Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

Yet many people who opposed the invasion never marched or had rally's to protest Saddam's invasion of Iran, Invasion of Kuwait, and attacks on Israel and Saudi Arabia. Where was the concern for the millions of lives impacted in various ways(Iraqi's as well as people around the world) by Saddam's actions and if one was truely concerned about what Saddam had done in the past as well as what he could potentially do in the future, why would one oppose removing the regime, in the only way it could be done given Saddam's capabilities?

What does any of that have to do with the points I raised? I asked why a person should be considered unpatriotic for opposing the war and questioned the idea that there are paralells between WWII and the invasion of Iraq. (I also asked macfistowannabe if he is the author of the article posted or not, but I wouldn't expect you to be able to answer that of course.)

 

[deep]

Back in the day, almost all actors and entertainers in America were patriotic.

Jimmy Stewart was a colonel in the Army Air corps. He was a certified bomber pilot in World War II. He earned two medals: The Distinguished Flying Cross and the Air Metal, for flying many missions against the Germans.

Clark Gable, who starred in Gone With The Wind, sent FDR a telegram requesting permission to join the US Army. He was in his forties at the time. Roosevelt reportedly said, "Stay where you are." It didn't end there. Clark Gable worked his way up the ladder. First a lieutenant, then a captain, then a major. He flew air raids with the 351st Bomb Group at Polebrook, England, and also in a B-17 bomber with the 91st Bomb Group. The Nazis even put a reward for his head as a result of his bombing campaigns. This is about the last thing you might expect Sean Penn to do.

Case in point, Ronald Reagan became a captain for the US Air Corps. Henry Fonda received a Bronze Star for Valor when he served in the Navy. Charles Durning earned three Purple Hearts and the Silver star. While serving in the Army, James Arness was awarded the Purple Heart and the Bronze Star. If you think these are the few exceptions, you're wrong. Alan Ladd, Jack Palance, George Montgomery, Glenn Ford, Van Heflin, Jackie Coogan, Don Adams, Lee Marvin, and Arthur Kennedy - all actors, all soldiers, all patriots for the free world.

They turned over their celebrity status to fight alongside of America's working class, risking their lives. These days, there's a better chance of your Hollywood lads to march alongside of Human Shield, who went to Iraq to disrupt our military operations.

Were our Hollywood Heroes better off than our troops are in Iraq right now? Probably not. The reported American death toll in World War II is 292,131, according to the United States Civil War Center.

Today's Hollywood types are screaming about some 2,000 US casualties and the billions of dollars invested in the war effort. Maybe they don't realize that we spent what would add up to over $2 trillion in today's cost adjustment on World War II.

Hmm...

Mac,


It was the lefties, the intreventionalists that were iching to jump into WWII


and the "Conservatives" America-First types that were fighting to keep us out.

WWII and the War of Choice based on fraudulant evidence are indeed two different things.

Unless you are just someone who loves war and killing people.

 

[Dreadsox]

I do not know where our Hollywood Heros are...

But an NFL hero comes to mind....Although maybe not a hero in FYM.

 

[deep]

Re: Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

Yet many people who opposed the invasion never marched or had rally's to protest

you are so very wrong


it was the lefties that were out front in early 2001 protesting the Talaban in Afghanistan, it was Jay Leno's wife and Larry David's wife and the like.



If was Cheney, Bush and a duped Colin Powell trying to cut deals with these thugs ang giving them millions of dollars.

deny, deny , deny

 

[deep]

But an NFL hero comes to mind....Although maybe not a hero in FYM.

talk to his family

about how they used his demise

and lied ablout it..
and what they think about it now.


there won't be any more people stepping up

for this dishonest Administration

 

[Dreadsox]

talk to his family

about how they used his demise

and lied ablout it..
and what they think about it now.


there won't be any more people stepping up

for this dishonest Administration

Deep, I am well aware of the situation surrounding his death. It makes him no less a hero in my mind. He gave up more than most will see in their lives, for his country, for others.

Point being, there is an example of someone in relation to the opening of the thread that fits the mold of the old time stars.

 

[deep]

I thought of him, too


I agree with what you say.


But, he went to Afghanistan to get BinLaden
who attacked us..


Iraq , the world knows
there is no link.

 

[blueyedpoet]

Back in the day, almost all actors and entertainers in America were patriotic.

They turned over their celebrity status to fight alongside of America's working class, risking their lives. These days, there's a better chance of your Hollywood lads to march alongside of Human Shield, who went to Iraq to disrupt our military operations.

Today's Hollywood types are screaming about some 2,000 US casualties and the billions of dollars invested in the war effort. Maybe they don't realize that we spent what would add up to over $2 trillion in today's cost adjustment on World War II.

Hmm...

First of all, you obviously believe that people in Hollywood are not patriotic. Is it because they - by and large - have been opposed to the war? They are unpatriotic because they are not happy that the government is ruining our country's credibility by making war? This war, let's not forget is a war based on lies - make no mistake about it, this phrase isn't just a liberal figure of speech or cliche. This war was based on outright lies - from the 9/11-Saddam consipiracy to the "sexed up" WMD intelligence.
And, if standing up for your beliefs in the face of dangerone is one of the ideals that America is all about, then it would seem that anyone who has gone over to Iraq to engage in a Human Shield has acted remarkably American.
Additionally, you're phrase "some 2,000 US casualties" is an insult to those brave 2000+ men and women who gave their lives. How dare you you dismiss their lives and the importance of their lives! Each one of those soldiers had dreams, aspirations, loves, families - they were real people. And, may I ask how many Iraqis have died? Or, do their lives not mean as much as American? Are Iraqis somehow less human?
Finally, I think that comparing Iraq to WWII is the last place a conservative will want to go. America was involved in a two-front war campaign and yet still came out victorious in a much shorter amount of time than the war in Iraq has lasted - not to mention the "War on Terror." How long did it take to find Hitler? How long did it take to find Osama? Oh wait, we haven't.

 

[financeguy]

Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

Mac,

It was the lefties, the intreventionalists that were iching to jump into WWII

and the "Conservatives" America-First types that were fighting to keep us out.

Absolutely correct.

And not only that but in Great Britain pre 1939 it was almost exclusively the leftwingers that were warning about Hitler. Many of the upper classes and right wingers had a sneaking regard for the Fascists.

As it happens Churchill was a Conservative, from the upper class, but to his credit he was alive to the dangers of fascism, unlike many from his class.

 

[STING2]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

you are so very wrong


it was the lefties that were out front in early 2001 protesting the Talaban in Afghanistan, it was Jay Leno's wife and Larry David's wife and the like.



If was Cheney, Bush and a duped Colin Powell trying to cut deals with these thugs ang giving them millions of dollars.

deny, deny , deny

Notice the full sentence that got cut off in your qoute:

"Yet many people who opposed the invasion never marched or had rally's to protest Saddam's invasion of IRAN, Invasion of KUWAIT, and attacks on ISRAEL and SAUDI ARABIA."

Were the lefties out in front in protesting these actions by Saddam? Did Jay Leno's Wife and Larry David's wife head a march against Saddam?

During these invasions and attacks by Saddam, President Bush was not really involved in politics to the degree he is today, Cheney did become Secretery of Defense under President Bush's father and was key in developing the strategy and leading the defense department and the military in its first major war since Vietnam in the 1991 Gulf War. Colin Powell was still in the military during this time.

 

[Bono's shades]

Calling people unpatriotic for opposing the war in Iraq is so 2003.

 

[blueyedpoet]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

Were the lefties out in front in protesting these actions by Saddam? Did Jay Leno's Wife and Larry David's wife head a march against Saddam?

Where were the righties when Iraq was invading Iran? Oh yeah, shaking hands and giving Saddam weapons

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Calling people unpatriotic for opposing the war in Iraq is so 2003.

or so..uh... Joe McCarthy?

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

Mac,


It was the lefties, the intreventionalists that were iching to jump into WWII


and the "Conservatives" America-First types that were fighting to keep us out.

WWII and the War of Choice based on fraudulant evidence are indeed two different things.

Unless you are just someone who loves war and killing people.

Yes, the "conservatives" got the Human Shield out there and stood in the path of the military as they laid down their lives to protect the world's freedom. And your "someone who loves war and killing people" comment is no more credible than if I suggested that you loved Saddam's mass graves, wood chippers, plastic shredders, rapes, murders,... you get the idea.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

You know, I'm not patriotic in the slightest but the implication that to oppose the war means one is not patriotic bothers me, if only because it seems that being branded 'unpatriotic' is problematic for many opponents of the war. Please tell me what is unpatriotic about questioning or indeed opposing a policy of your government.



The author of the article (I don't know if it's your own article or not? Could you clarify?) seems to assume some sort of equivalence between World War II and the current war in Iraq, when even a cursory glance at a textbook of twentieth century history will expose the vast differences between the conflict of 1939-1945 and the contemporary situation in Iraq.

And just for the record, people's concern with the war in Iraq isn't exclusively with American military deaths or the cost to the United States. Many people are disgusted to see that thousands of innocent Iraqis have been killed and millions more had their lives devastated by the invasion. It is that reason, as much or more than the cost to the United States, which leads many to oppose this war.

My research, my piece.

...As were many Japanese devastated in my own country as they were treated harshly and denied basic freedoms because they didn't look American enough. That's just for starters. There were many similarities between this war and many other lessons throughout history.

I loved the "McCarthyism" cry by the way... It seems to be an automated response to when liberals have their patriotism questioned.

----

Hollywood is a VERY different place now than it was. I despise the idea that Hollywood should be our spokesmouths by any means.

Cher says, "I don't like Bush. I don't trust him. He's stupid; he's lazy."

Guess how smart she is. Guess! She's a high-school dropout.

While she carries no academic credentials, not even a GED, Bush graduated from Yale and completed a mastor's of business administration at Harvard's business school. He's a certified F-102 pilot who has flown with the Texas Air National Guard. Even with those facts in context, I want to be a Hollywood suckup and declare Cher more intelligent.

And of course it's irrational to question Richard Gere's patriotism as well. When that turncoat went halfway around the world, he stabbed his country in the back with a butcher knife. At the 53rd Berlin Film Festival, he took the liberty of claiming that "America has never paid any attention to other people." Really?

FDR wanted war with Hitler and the Japanese factories of death long before Pearl Harbor. And what about the North Vietnamese slaughter of a million South Vietnamese AFTER the US withdrew? Or Reagan's tactics for ending the Cold War?

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Calling people unpatriotic for opposing the war in Iraq is so 2003.

So is whining about the US-led invasion.

 

[financeguy]

Re: Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

My research, my piece.

...As were many Japanese devastated in my own country as they were treated harshly and denied basic freedoms because they didn't look American enough. That's just for starters. There were many similarities between this war and many other lessons throughout history.

I loved the "McCarthyism" cry by the way... It seems to be an automated response to when liberals have their patriotism questioned.

----

Hollywood is a VERY different place now than it was. I despise the idea that Hollywood should be our spokesmouths by any means.

Cher says, "I don't like Bush. I don't trust him. He's stupid; he's lazy."

Guess how smart she is. Guess! She's a high-school dropout.

While she carries no academic credentials, not even a GED, Bush graduated from Yale and completed a mastor's of business administration at Harvard's business school. He's a certified F-102 pilot who has flown with the Texas Air National Guard. Even with those facts in context, I want to be a Hollywood suckup and declare Cher more intelligent.

And of course it's irrational to question Richard Gere's patriotism as well. When that turncoat went halfway around the world, he stabbed his country in the back with a butcher knife. At the 53rd Berlin Film Festival, he took the liberty of claiming that "America has never paid any attention to other people." Really?

FDR wanted war with Hitler and the Japanese factories of death long before Pearl Harbor. And what about the North Vietnamese slaughter of a million South Vietnamese AFTER the US withdrew? Or Reagan's tactics for ending the Cold War?

Your priorities are interesting.

You rant against these various celebrities, few of which have ever held political office, few of which have any real influence or power, but ignore the fact that the current crop of political leaders, from Bush-Cheney-DeLay to Tony Blair over on this side of the pond, have no records of combat military service.

If we want to bring WWII analogies into it, allow me to point out Winston Churchill and Roosevelt had distinguished military careers. They certainly weren't chickenhawks.

On the other hand Bush and Cheney dodged the draft, as did an uncomfortably large number of other Republican politicians.

And who on this forum has put forward Cher or Richard Gere as role models? No-one has.

But carry on with your ranting against irrelevant non-entities like Cher or Richard Gere, it will help detract your attention away from your political leaders with their feet of clay.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

you're phrase "some 2,000 US casualties" is an insult to those brave 2000+ men and women who gave their lives. How dare you you dismiss their lives and the importance of their lives! Each one of those soldiers had dreams, aspirations, loves, families - they were real people. And, may I ask how many Iraqis have died? Or, do their lives not mean as much as American? Are Iraqis somehow less human?

Why don't you relax. The 2000 figure was the US casualties in comparisan to the 292,000+ casualties the US faced in WWII.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

If we want to bring WWII analogies into it, allow me to point out Winston Churchill and Roosevelt had distinguished military careers. They certainly weren't chickenhawks.

Winston Churchill also fought for an independent Iraq that gave human beings basic dignities. Then came the Baath Party that set Iraq back 1,000 years. Roosevelt was IN BED with Joseph Stalin, make no mistake. He also had Soviet spies working within his administration.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

And who on this forum has put forward Cher or Richard Gere as role models? No-one has.

But carry on with your ranting against irrelevant non-entities like Cher or Richard Gere, it will help detract your attention away from your political leaders with their feet of clay.

Of course, I (the apparent neocon from Hell) would never allow that to happen. If you're not interested in discussing Hollywood's history, I'm not requiring you to do such a thing.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

How long did it take to find Osama? Oh wait, we haven't.

Yes, for we all know that global terrorism will disappear the minute we find Osama...

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

This war was based on outright lies - from the 9/11-Saddam consipiracy to the "sexed up" WMD intelligence.

Saddam didn't have anything to do with the isolated 9/11 incident. However, he offered $25,000 to the families of each suicide bomber that accepted his contribution to global terroris.

And if Bush "lied," so did all of these people.

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"We must stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 1, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton.
- (D) Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, others, Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Re: Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

*terrorism

 

[Bono's shades]

So is whining about the US-led invasion.

The point I was trying to make is more and more Americans are starting to question why we are there - or at least how the occupation is being handled.

 

[STING2]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

Where were the righties when Iraq was invading Iran? Oh yeah, shaking hands and giving Saddam weapons

Can you name one weapon system they gave to Iraq? I know of some weapons, 2,000 TOW missiles, they gave to IRAN to free hostages during that time.

 

[deep]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

Can you name one weapon system they gave to Iraq?

I know of some weapons, 2,000 TOW missiles, they gave to IRAN to free hostages during that time.

isn't Iran the axis of evil?

That was completely illegal

trading arms for hostages

 

[deep]

Re: Re: Re: Before the Stars Left their Stripes Behind

Saddam didn't have anything to do with the isolated 9/11 incident. However, he offered $25,000 to the families of each suicide bomber that accepted his contribution to global terroris.

And if Bush "lied," so did all of these people.

the big difference

for anyone with
any common decency
and integrity


is

honest mistakes

and

dishonest mistakes



this administration
chose to push the
dishonest mistakes
evidence they knew was shoddy or outright false

there is a reason he is at 37% in the polls